Living descendants of Edward IV?

There is also lines from him to the Isle of Man, that was conquered by
Harald hårfagre,

Harald I Halvdansson «Fairhair» Hårfagre is Alexander Hamilton, Signer of the US Constitution's 24th great grandfather!

http://www.geni.com/path/Alexander-Hamilton-Signer-of-the-US-Consti...

Dale, Geni does not appear to be the right website for you.

Geni is a collaborative site. You are pushing a non-collaborative agenda.

On Geni, the John Rice line does not belong to you alone. There are many users who have close relationships to him and to the families you want to link him to, me included. Many of those users are distressed that you are trying to mess up their genealogy by pushing for connections that can't be proved by paper records or by DNA.

I did not delete your mother's connection to anyone. Maybe someone did, but there are thousands of people simultaneously working on their own lines, most of them not paying any attention to your project. It's easily possible for someone to correct a problem where the result is to disconnect a line you are used to seeing.

Your comments make it clear you still do not understand DNA matching and time to most recent common ancestor. If you did, you would not say that a "120 marker" test would get you to the 1-6 generation level with the Suttons. No amount of testing is going to get you down to that level when you are already thousands of years apart.

If you can't begin to work collaboratively, I will report you and ask Geni to suspend you.

Ulf, the Alexander Hamilton line appears to have a weak link at Angus of Bute Angus of Bute & Arran. Supposedly he died in 1210 without surviving male issue.

Or did they mean "surviving *legitimate* male issue"?

Alexander Hamilton, Signer of the US Constitution is Olaf the Black of Isle of Man's second cousin 16 times removed!

http://www.geni.com/path/Olaf-the-Black-of-Isle-of-Man+is+related+t...

"Or did they mean "surviving *legitimate* male issue"?"
Seems to me, when glancing on the about me sections, that
his son James Macrory, Lord of Bute
also died the same year, 1210,
so that makes sense.
" James Macrory, Lord of Bute was the son of Angus, Lord of Bute and Arran.1 He died in 1210 at Scotland, killed by the men of Skye, along with his father and two brothers."

If her father was dead 1210, the she could not be born many years later than that, so obvious, either I have misinterpreted or someone else has.

"Jean Macrory, Heiress of Butte-Ar MP
Född: between circa 1210 and circa 1228
Bute, Strathclyde, Scotland"

wife of Alexander Stewart

Re: Agness Phillips: Daughter of William Rice = the best candidate for the mother listed as Margaret Rice May 2, 1630.

I was a little surprised to see John Rice of North Walsham still showing up as a candidate for immigrant John Rice.

Just went to check -- sure enough, the John Rice born in 1630 in North Walsham as the illegitimate son of Margaret Rice was still there 1665 to 1675, married to a woman named Mary, having children of his own.

Immigrant John Rice was already in Massachusetts, married 1649 to Ann Hackley.

They cannot be the same man.

We need to stop covering the same ground over and over.

When I read
"James Macrory, Lord of Bute was the son of Angus, Lord of Bute and Arran.1

He died in 1210 at Scotland, killed by the men of Skye, along with his father and two brothers."

I interpret it as James died, along with his father and two brothers,

I'm not an English speaker, but if the same sentence had been in Swedish, then my way of seeing it would be right.

X is the son of Y. He died bla bla bla, refers back to X, because of a dot, instead of a comma. The rest of the text says that both the father and also two brothers died, the brothers must be his brothers, not the fathers, because that would be, his father and two uncles.

Jean of Bute is a very famous "heiress" in Scottish history. Through her the Stewarts gained control of Bute from the "MacDonalds".

Here's another account that might make it clearer:

"The surviving sons of Ragnhilda -- Ranald, Dugall, and Angus -- divided the bulk of Somerled's possessions between themselves. Angus, the younger, received a scattered patrimony comprising the 'rough bounds' of Garmoran -- Moidart, Morar, Knoydart, and Arisaig, to the north of Ardnamurchan, and also the islands of Arran and Bute. In 1192 he quarrelled with Ranald and defeated him in a battle, but in 1210 he was himself killed together with his three sons by the Norsemen of Skye who had invaded Moidart. His possessions were seized by Ranald's descendants, although his eldest son James had left an heiress Jane [Jean], who married Alexander, son of Walter Fitz-Alan the Steward. Through her the Stewarts prosecuted a claim to Arran and Bute -- which they eventually obtained after some resistance."

Ronald Williams, The Lords of the Isles (1984), 127.

Yes Justin, that means that someone should change the death date in James profile from 1217 to 1210, also change the DOB of his daughter to max 1210, instead of what ever it now says.

Done.

The "Alexander Stewart m. Jean MacRory daughter of James MacRory" thing has also been questioned, to the point that Wikipedia(!) thinks it's bogus. (Much they know about "bogus"!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Stewart,_4th_High_Steward_of...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aonghas_mac_Somhairle
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/manxsoc/msvol22/p074.htm

The specific citation is to David Sellars, former Lord Lyon, who is a particular expert in this area. If he says it, I believe it. (But I'd still like to see it.)

Per "Electric Scotland" http://www.electricscotland.com/history/nation/macrory.htm

MACRORY, a surname derived from the name Roderick, called Ruari in the Highlands. The clan Rory were so styled from Roderick, the eldest of the three sons of Reginald, second son of Somerled of the Isles by his second marriage. This Roderick was lord of Kintyre and one of the most noted pirates of his day. His descendants became extinct in the third generation. The clan Donald and clan Dougall sprung from Roderick's brothers.

-------------------------------------

Angus of Bute was Reginald/Ranald's brother, and ran him off the Isle of Man in 1192 (after which no more is heard of Ranald). But Ranald's sons came back with a grudge and a vengeance in 1210, and wiped out Angus and all three of his (known) sons.

Per the above, the clan MacRory is descended, not from Angus, but from Ranald through his son Ruaidri/Roderick.

These I think are the relevant citations from Sellar:

* Sellar, WDH (1966). "The Origins and Ancestry of Somerled". The Scottish Historical Review 45 (140, pt. 2): 123–142. JSTOR 25528658.
* Sellar, WDH (2000). "Hebridean Sea Kings: The Successors of Somerled, 1164–1316". In Cowan, EJ; McDonald, RA. Alba: Celtic Scotland in the Middle Ages. East Linton: Tuckwell Press. pp. 187–218. ISBN 1-86232-151-5.
* Sellar, WDH (2004). "Somerled (d. 1164)". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/26782. Retrieved 5 July 2011. Subscription or UK public library membership required.

The clan MacRory as a factor in Scottish politics seems to have ended c.1346, but the name, however sustained (adherents and female-line descendants?), carried on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Macruari

As to the argument over Somerled being genetically Norse, perhaps it should be mentioned that Thorfinn Sigurdarson of Orkney was about three-fourths genetically Celt (Scottish mother, Irish paternal grandmother).

There was a lot of interbreeding going on.

Going back, even if just temporarily, to an old subject in this discussion -- I've been doing some research into the Phillips lines presented on Geni.

Many of these lines appear to be known fakes, traceable to a modern genealogist who has publicized his theory that all many different Phillips families in America are all descended from the Philipps family of Picton Castle. DNA testing reported by the Phillips DNA project shows the lines are fake.

For more details, see the discussion at http://www.geni.com/discussions/146953

When I look at the previous posted line, I see another weakness that don't make sense to me.

http://www.geni.com/path/Alexander-Hamilton-Signer-of-the-US-Consti...

"Unknown Wallace"
N.N. Wallace, heiress of Caprington

In the about me...
"Miss Wallace is supposedly a daughter of Sir Duncan Wallace of Sundrum, but Duncan died a rather elderly man abt 1373 and Sundrum Castle passed on to his nephew Alan de Cathcart by 1384."

The supposed father.

Duncan Wallace, of Sundrum
Born: circa 1355
Scotland
intimate:
Son of Sir Duncan Wallace, of Ayrshire och Eleanor Douglas
Husband of NN Wallace
Father of Unknown Wallace och Donnchadh Wallace

If he was born around 1355, how can he die as a rather elderly man in 1373 and how can his son Donnchadh Wallace be born circa 1390 ?

Maybe I see this wrong or what?

There have always been people who want to latch onto royalty by hook or by crook, and there have always been dishonest people willing to make the link-ups when the price was right.

Ulf,

Now that you and Maven have brought it up, I have Jean of Bute on my list of things to do. I'll take a look at this Wallace later.

This particular discussion thread is the Geni equivalent of slumming. If we want respectable genealogists to take a look at the problems we find, we need to go out into the real world with discussions connected to the profiles ;)

If anyone here beats me to it, I'll sing your praises eternally.

Maven, some of us didn't get the gene for pretentious genealogy. I'm including you in that exemption. I don't understand the drive to force connections. And, I have to laugh whenever I see every illiterate, barefooted brat of a minor kinglet posthumously promoted to Prince and Princess.

Discovered someone had blown a hole right through my Hamby line with a Crazy-Bad-Merge that forced a 20th century person into the 14th century and ripped away the upline (which, I might add, I had spent *weeks* working on!).

I've managed to undo the damage, or most of it, but - be warned: there are still booby-traps out there from the Mega-Merge Mania.

I understand you Justin.

Maven, I saw one example of that yesterday in one tree, it was not an fake, but the women it concerned "could" have been the mystery of a king, so the child "could" have been his, BUT, she was married and the father of her son was almost certainly her husbands, still, they really wanted this to be possible to that degree that they locked the possibilities to add parents, siblings, etc.If the king really were the father, then he was senile at the time of conception and the mother to old to bear any child at all, but the possibility....

It is a real waste of a decent woman's repute who contributed a lot in the beginning of the modern industrialized era in certain areas, to have her locked out just because one vague rumor.

My theory that John Rice of Dedham might have been the John Rice of Northam (born 1624) and perhaps a nephew of Hannah Phillips of Dedham seems to have foundered on a major problem with fakery in the Phillips families of colonial Massachusetts.

But remember John Rice of Mistley (born 1629)? I still think he's a bit too young to have been John Rice of Dedham who married in 1649, but ... I notice that Mistley is only 9 miles from Boxted, where Hannah Phillips' supposed brother Rev. George Phillips was curate. Not only that, Dedham in Norfolk is halfway between Mistley and Boxted.

I finally got some time for some of the open questions here.

I disconnected Jean of Bute from her supposed parents, blanked her name, and gave her the display name "Jean of Bute". The curator might decide on a different solution for an unknown woman who is commonly known by a particular name.

I moved Miss Wallace (Katherine?) to be daughter of the "right" father, the younger Duncan (1390), not his father Duncan (1355). I couldn't find anything to explain the curious note about Duncan who died as an elderly man about 1373. Another Duncan (1315), the grandfather here, died about 1376, so perhaps that's supposed to him. I left the note as it is in case someone else can figure it out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Abney-Hastings,_14th_Earl_of_...
son of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Abney-Hastings,_15th_Earl_of_Lo...
He was the heir-general of George Plantagenet, the younger brother of Edward IV of England.

Looks like Abney-Hastings was of mixed male-female descent, so we wouldn't have learned anything by Y-DNA testing him. Too bad.