Johannes Jansz van Ceijlon, SV/PROG - Children & Other Similar Named Couples

And the fantastic Em Lo - found us even more: As for Rosetta van Bengale x Johannes Jansz van Ceijlon, whose inventory is listed below: I can see they did have a 5th child Hendrik baptised 12 June 1746. He is however not listed on their inventory disposing of all their assets (looks like they may have died not long apart?) . There are also no children of his listed, as are for the 2 deceased children Johanna Rebekka and Appolinia. So one could hazard a guess that he may have died childless before 1769. Of course the reason for his absence in their will/distribution will have to be checked and confirmed.

Since this Rosetta van Bengale x Johannes Jansz van Ceijlon had children in the 1730's and 1740's, one could expect her to possibly have been in her 50's around the time of her death in 1769 - perhaps born around 1715 or thereabouts...?? All to be checked and confirmed of course!

Sharon Doubell usually there can be 2 reasons for not mentioning a child of which the most common was that he died before the parent.
A 2nd reason can be that he was disowned.
But wow Em-Lo.

Okay, Em Lo - please check me here . We have postulated/ decided that the Johannes Jansz van Ceijlon who is the widower of Rosaleijn van Bengale is NOT the same man as the Johannes Jansz van Ceijlon, SV/PROG who was married to Rosetta van Bengalen and one couple is much younger than the other.

Can you remind me why we decided that :-) so I can enter it on the profiles to prevent them being remerged together?

Thanks doll. I think you & Marie & I are doing very good work here :-)

What if Apolonia van die Caap (c1732)
(bought from her owner Koevoet by Johannes Jansz van Ceijlon, SV/PROG)
- previously baptised by a ROSA van Bengale, is actually the child of a dead ROSAleign & Johannes Jansz van Ceijlon, SV/PROG; not of Rosetta & Johannes Jansz van Ceijlon, SV/PROG?

ie the Johannes who is the father of Apolonia is also the the Johannes who is the widower of Rosaleign> (Perhaps buying her from her owner when her mother dies and he remarries?)

Is there a document to suggest this is not possible?

Hmmmm...interesting thought Sharon!! One must always consider all options!! ☺

It seems the two doppelganger couples (with one of the Johannes Janse being the widower of Roseleijn van Bengale) can't be the same persons since:

1758 Rosetta van Bengale x Johannes Jansz (no toponym), wewenaar van Rosaleijn van Bengale. I can only find one child of Rosalijn van Bengale and Johannes Janse in familysearch:
Rosalijn van Bengale and Johannes Janse baptises: 29 March 1744 Maria Sultania Janse.

while...

The other Jan (Johannes) Jansz van Ceijlon has seemingly already been married to another Rosetta van Bengale since 24 Oct 1737, had numerous children together from 1732 -1746, and both died leaving several children and grandchildren mentioned in 1769 - including Apolonia.

unless...we have a bit of a child mix-up here if there are two Johannes Jansz/Janse and two Rosalijn/Rosalyn's and/or Rosetta van Bengale has an aka Roselijn/Rosalyn....

...we may well have a more complex situation, because I do see in Familysearch:
Rosalyn van Bengale, slave of Jacob(us) Hendriksz, baptises:
28/11/1723: Daniel
29/5/1735: Moses
31/1/1740: Abraham v d Caap and Helena v d Caap.

2 adult baptisms for Rosalyn van Bengale:
- Adult baptism: 20/1/1737 Rosalyn van Bengale, adult slave of Johannes van Ceijlon.[is this Rosetta van Bengalen being referred to as Rosalyn, or is Rosalyn just a slave of her husband, or is this Johannes the one who married a Rosetta van Bengalen in 1737 or
- Adult baptism: 21/5/1744: Rosalyn van Bengalen

I also noticed a baptism of a Johannes Janse who I wonder if he could perhaps be the one who was the widower of Rosaleijn van Bengale who remarried a Rosetta van Bengale in 1758, not he one who married a Rosetta van Bengalen in 1737...???

I see there was also a Johannes Janse who was not from Ceijlon's baptismal entry on 7/7/1709: Johannes Janse baptised, son of Claas Janse and Aaltie Willemse Schalk....???

The plot thickens!! I am struggling to get clarity about all these multiple persons with similar names!!!!!!

I think one may have to look up those wills too to see if they help clarify which children belonged to which couples.....
1750 Drie Rosetta van Bengale testamente: CJ 2611:38 1750; wife of Johannes Jansz will MOOC 7/1/11:4 1750; wife of Johannes Jansz will MOOC 7/1/19:14 1750
1764 Rosetta van Bengale trek gesamentlike testament op met Johannes Jansz MOOC 7/1/19:15 1764.

Someone did look for me once and said the 1769 Rosetta van Bengale widow of Jan Jansz van Ceylon's liquidation & distribution a/c MOOC 13/1/7:4 1769-1770 and will of 16/10/1769 (ref MOOC8/13.23), showed she was married to Jan Jansz van Ceijlon and 4 children are mentioned: Johanna (Anna?) Rebecca, Appolinia, Johannes Adriaan en Maria Juliana.

Might be worth double checking all these documents - to ensure one links the right parents and children......

I spotted another NOT "van Ceijlon" Johannes Janse:
Baptised 5/3/1724, son of Jan Jansz and Anna van der Heijden.

The abundance of this name with various spellings as well as the abundance of Rosetta van Bengalen's (and now even Rosa and Rosalijn van Bengalen thrown in the mix), makes separating all these individuals quite difficult.

I think it will have to be done by painstaking analysis and correlation of baptismal records, wills, opgaafrol entries, manumission entries, Leibbrandt records, Resolutions of the Cape of Policy records, and any other primary source data that can be found about them, as was done to resolve the Jonker ancestry puzzle. It is a slow and time-consuming process....

Shew... Okay need more coffee.... :-) You may be right.

Johannes. Baptize 5 Mar 1724 Cape.
Father: Jan Jansz.
Mother: Anna van der Heyden.
Witness: Jacob Marick surname could be Marwick
Margarita Corsz.
It seems that they were married, on mention of 'ONEGT"

Jan Jansz and Anna Van de Heyden.
Daugther; Catharina baptize 18 Sep 1718.
Witness: Jan Jansz and Sioniysia.
Jan Jansz and Anna van der H eyden.
Son: Jacobus baptize 3 May 1716.
Witness: Jan Jansz and Magdalena Ley
See this profile.
Jan Jansz van Beulen

Even more coffee.... :-)

Em is quite correct. Just as there were many men (fathers) named Jan, there were many sons named Jan - hence Jan Jansz (short for 'Jan syn zoon' - in English 'son of Jan')
Fortunately the use of surnames (real or assumed or stated place of origin) help us to resolve most of these, e.g. Jan Jansz van Bolen/Beulen, as Marie quite rightly points out.
Some however concluded their lives simply as "Jan Jansz", and we have to take care not too confuse those.

Yes Johann, the more I 'dig' the more Rosettas van Bengalen and Jan Jansz/e or Johannes Jansz/e I find!!

Maybe one should just focus on separating the Rosetta x Jan/Johannes Jansz couples for whom confirmation can be found in multiple pieces of documentation - ie try and attach the baptised children we have entries for to the correct parents. Grandparents and other family members signing as witnesses at grandchildren's baptisms can be a big help. The wills listed in http://www.geni.com/discussions/148194 will also be very valuable....(I am very far away from the CT archives, so unfortunately can't assist with the latter...hopefully someone lives in CT and can assist???).

I'm in Pretoria - for all practical purposes, I might as well have been down under...