Adam of Eden - Double standards

Dries, just because you are talking nonsense does not mean that the discussion is nonsense. If you wish to stop participating just use the Unfollow button.

There is an expression in English "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink". So you can tell people to stop posting nonsense but you cannot make them stop, the only person you can control is yourself... for some people even that is difficult.

https://www.riffsy.com/view/riff/3336927/6-days-since-last-nonsense...

Sorry for the delay Sharon, I have to sleep at some point :)

@Dries OK, if you really want to talk to yourself, that is your problem, I certainly do not care what you do on your knees. the problem I do have is, people polluting family trees with fictional characters claiming they are descendants of such and such without having any proof to said claim, then they go and merge their trees based on bogus fairy tales with other trees messing it up for everybody else.

its human to have emotion its make us live :)

but when talking about religion and genealogy with only a focus point to only see a direct line there i see a major problem

its not the jewish not the arab that have in the first man in the story ,all of this came from another civilisation long before them
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maybe off topic a bit but when the new land discovery came to the hear of european of some culture relogions they went CRAZY AS HELL
its hard to understand a ruling point based only on text book the same writen by the same ppl

against a living civilisation i am talking here of aztek. in europe they have piramid .and they got trace of civilisation but mainly all in ruin .in the new land(america) they was still well alive .(and they know the story)

humanity have as i call
the choc of the culture and always reminder that the indian of canada is on this land for 14000 years ago!(prooved and i think its alot longuer than that)

remember they went all crazy as hell.....

I just got in on the end of this...but WHICH Bible is Dries "pulling his so-called facts from"???

Norm Galston, I have no idea, but one of the primary advantages of having a [crazy] Israeli Jew as the perpetrator of this project, is that I'm fluent in Hebrew. So THAT is my source.

I use the KJV spellings for English, because these spellings are most common. Of course I also use the KJV as primary source for the TWO [really odd] genealogies of Jesus.

[invokes spell to open Gates of Hell] But OMG the KJV is such a terrible translation!

@Martin I agree 100% with you, there have been hundreds of civilizations most well documented long before the Christian Judicial Islamic civilizations, it is not the only people that lived and can therefore not be the only thing focused upon, I think it is laziness to only focus on the few generations as printed in the bible when there have been thousands before then, how they even managed to put god (Yahweh) in there as the farther of all is even more ridicules, if you really wan't to make it religions what about the other 5000 gods and their descendants? what make you think that there was only one god? bit narcissistic isn't it

PIeter, there are lots of gods on Geni just not on this branch

I agree this should be labeled Myth/fictitious like Zeus (those Gods came BEFORE eve too)

The funny part is that a few years ago there was an awesome genealogy of Harry Potter universe that somebody has created on Geni. It was very well researched and awesomely done. And it was deleted.

The problem is not that there are fictional character genealogies, but rather that they get connected to real family trees every so often.

Harry James Potter, {FICT} Still here and can’t be merged into the World Family Tree. We agree it’s awesome and well done.

I second that the Harry Potter tree is not deleted. It is not connected to the big tree and it will never be connected to the profiles based on real living persons or what are called Muggles by the Potter Heads.
So Volodya Mozhenkov I hope you will help to improve the HP tree and other I hope you will help the muggles by labeling the HP figures as muythical and fictitious or tell a Curator if a profile is based on a mythical or fictitious being.

But it double standard to label a figure of one book mythical and another not. I think the big problem is with the labeling. And a more neutral term is better. I know I am opening an old discussion, but Adam of Eden is also a very figure and please love to talk about him and other beings. Adam of Eden and Harry Potter are in the books that are translated in the most languages of the world.

Cool. I see that i was incorrect when it came to the Harry Potter. It is quite a nice thing.

It would be nice to have some sort of technical "Universe" tag, which would make different profiles unlinkable. Another great expansion would be to have dog and cat genealogies. I had a dog as a child that had a complete filled genealogy that spanned more generations than i have been able to reconstruct so far for my own self.

tho, the Harry Potter profile has got some mistakes (ie: They list his son James 2x, and it says he has a brother Weasly and he doesn't)..so if they are going to keep it, they should fix it up and make sure it's 'correct' :)

I would like to say that in my Reform Jewish family, i was taught -- and i still hold it to be a logical and workable premise -- that the genealogy of descent from Adam is not from a fictional "first man created" but rather from a "first known man of our (Jewish) family." The Tanakh contains much genealogy, produced to the best known standards of its time. Comparing its genealogical records (especially as misinterpreted by Christians!) to a book of fiction like the Harry Potter series is little more than sarcastic anti-semitism.

If you think of the Tanakh as a compendium of Jewish genealogy, war chronicles, medical diagnostics, civil engineering plans, dietary recommendations, and wisdom sayings -- a "Boy Scout Manual for a Small Nomadic Tribe" -- it will be easy to understand and relate to. If you try to use it as a point of reference in your internal or cultural struggle with the problems of cosmology, philosophy, theology, and mortality, it may be of dogmatic service, and if you reject that dogma (however badly interpreted), you will consider it a "work of fiction" and lose the value that it actually has.

Volodya Mozhenkov as long as your dog's pedigree is not connected to any humans you are more than welcome to build it on Geni. Any Curator can isolate it so that it can not mistakenly be connected.

Kristin Felicia VanNest i have tagged the extra James for deletion. I cannot see any brother Weasley, two sisters have Weasley as their married name.

Catherine Anna Manfredi Yronwode very well said.

Private User Harry Potter is Fictional, there is no one claiming that he was ever real. Adam and Eve are Mythical, some people believe they lived but their presence in a book does not prove the belief to be a fact. Likewise Odin is Mythical because while some people may believe in him and he appears in many stories and texts those writings do not prove that he lived.
Having said that, please be aware that there is no standardization on Geni regarding the use of Suffix tags. The Curator ability to label an entire tree as Ficitional has no options for labeling, any tree isolated in this manner gets labeled "Fictional" regardless of the Curator's intent when isolating it.

Brother of <private> Weasley (Potter) and Dudley Vernon Dursley, {FICT} <----incorrect

Half brother of <private> Weasley (Snape) <----incorrect

Volodya Mozhenkov dogs lives shorter then man so that is why it easier have more generations. And I feel sad that your dog has a better family tree then you, but free to add the tree about dogs into Geni as long as you do not connect it the human tree. We, Curators, are force to mark it as fictional, but it is only a label.

And on the point of Adam and Eve . The discussion if they are mythical or fictional is not a discussion they are based on sources, but the software forces us, Curators, as fictional to protect that the biblical tree is merged with the HP tree.

On the HP tree. It is outside this discussion to make suggestion how to improve the HP tree. So could we return to the subject of double standards.

Jeroen,
Adam's profie is not marked as Fictional nor does he have any suffix tags to indicate anything of that nature, this is the "double standard" which triggered this discussion. Adam is part of the WFT but many users feel this is inappropriate as he is part of a very specific (if popular) cultural system.

I do agree that corrections to the HP tree belong in a Discussion thread connected specifically to that tree/project/profile.

Alex I agree that there is a double standard. The standard needs to be that is must be able to proof by paper, by DNA and by electronic way that a profile is connectable to another profile in the big tree. And Adam of Eden can be proven by paper and electronic sources, but it is not possible by DNA to proof that this biblical being can be connected with a RL being like you and me. That is the standard we should use. And this standard should be the discussion topic of this Discussion.

And if it is unprovable by this standard then it should be marked Fictional.

Jeroen, the thing is that even if we can show that somebody named Jesus existed, and if that person had a partner named Eve, we can be sure that there has never been a time in the history of human species when only two persons existed. There has been a very serious bottlenecks in our past (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory for example) and humanity still has not completely recovered from that. Two individuals a few thousands of years ago without any external gene flow would be fatal for the species.

Volodya Mozhenkov all the dna research points that there was not point in time that only two persons where alone on earth.

But still we have paper proof of it. And a lot people have the book with that proof in house.

If their was one point in time there was only two individuals only a miracle would keep it from fatal results for the human race.

There are written proof of miracles and archives full of proof of miracles.

Jeroen,

We live in a single reality. I know that it is becoming popular to consider solopcism, but the whole idea of Geni (as i understand it) is that there is one family tree for the whole of humanity. I have no problem with somebody making a MyHeritage tree or a tree on their home computer that provides an 'alternative account', but it is just that, an alternative to reality.

I think a parallel with Potter again applies here. I do not read many fiction books, but i have several times listened to a great audio book read by Stephen Fry of all the Potter novels. If we consider reading from start to finish, i have "read" (listened to) Harry Potter more than most people have gone entirely through their Christian Bibles. Do you know what it means? Absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter how many people believe something for the purposes of determining if that something is correct, we can and should *consider* common beliefs, and we have in this situation. However, when those common beliefs contradict the reality, we must drop them. Otherwise there will never be any progress, the mistakes do not get resolved because we just propagate the misconceptions.

I like to discuss the fact if we live in a single reality or not.

I do believe that the human mind is limited and yes there is something as shared big tree and there is something as a shared single reality that is based on the DNA proof.

And some books I have only heard in the spoke version. That is one way to go to your English list. And I should get the spoken version of the Harry Potter books.

I only try to say that the biblical tree, the harry potter tree and the shared big tree based on DNA should not be connected. They are shared trees that do not need to be connected.

The trees on MyHeritage are family trees shared with family members that you want to keep into the family. And can keep private.

But that is just IMHO or just my POV.

Just for the record. I am a Reform Jew, a denomination widely known for skeptical or rationalist cosmology. However, i most emphatically do NOT consider Adam and Eve to be "fictional." I consider them to be the earliest known named parents of the lineage that led to Abraham.

Where they came from and how they came into being may be a poetic embellisment, but they seem quite real to me. They are not the parents of ALL people, they are simply the earliest known parents of the Jewish tribe of people.

The Christians who appropriated our religion really did a number on our genealogical records, codifying them as the "infallible word of God" and thus giving the atheists an excuse for a field day of snarky laughter. "Who were those OTHER people, outside of Eden?" they laugh -- "Your story isn't even consistent fiction!"

But, again, as i see it, our religion is not monotheistic, as the Christians would have it ("no other god before me" implies that we Jews were well aware of other gods and of the tutelary nature of our own god) and we were not writing children's fiction, because our interest in genealogy is evident and obvious in every "begat" in the Tanakh, so the "other" people outside of Eden were just that -- another tribe of human beings whose ancestry we did not know.

Give credit where credit is due: We Jews have one of the oldest and most continuously curated genealogies on Earth. Our family tree has been copied over and over, on parchment and on paper. That does not make us "better" or "more special" than other people, but it does lead folks like me to the conclusion that Adam and Eve were real people who actually lived several thousand years ago.

Cheers!

Catherine Anna Manfredi Yronwode given that other foundational blocks, eg the story of Moses in his basket, seems to have been appropriated from an earlier tradition of another culture how likely would you consider that the chain of descent from Adam & Eve may have also been borrowed from somewhere?
Perhaps all the begats are accurate but somewhere there is a metaphoricalbit of cut and paste going on.

Trying to stick to genealogy :)
Catherine seems to be arguing that the path back to Adam is reliable but is mistakenly viewed by most as an isolated line with no contemporaries. I can accept her point regarding contempoaries but i am challenging her premise that the path to Adam is reliable, my objection is that scholars can identify many stories in the Old Testament which are borrowed from other cultures so what foundation is there to think the path to Adam is reliable. I haven't got a link handy but i am pretty sure we have other Adam and Eve profiles on Geni from other cultural traditions (Sumarian? I don't recall), if these other versions of A&E predate the Jewish version then it kind of blows a hole in Catherine's logic

Curt Quentin Harris

Odin, {Norse God} is a Norse deity and should not be connected to any humans.

The tree for the kings of Wessex should top out at Weothulgeot unless there is another Wessex line that i'm not aware of.

You may find this interesting https://www.geni.com/projects/Odin-s-Kin/12244

I had to look up "tantamount" - merriam-webster says "Definition of tantamount
: equivalent in value, significance, or effect".

However, I don't believe religious freedom means freedom from having your belief called false. That's just part of open discourse - which is *really* core to liberty.

I believe the ACLU frequently allies with the Satanic Temple in religious freedom matters (https://www.peninsulaclarion.com/news/borough-gets-aclu-bill-of-80000/)

The Norse legends have the great advantage from a practical point of view that anyone who's likely to come after you with an axe for calling them false is, as far as we know, well and truly dead by now :-)