The bogus Moytoy tree

You
→ Theodore Andoe Carr
your father → Orel Jonathan Carr
his father → Jonathan Carr
his father → Charity Carr
his mother → Charity Beals
her mother → Sarah Charity Hockett
her mother → Sarah Ann Beals (Cook)
her mother → Mary Cook
her mother → Henry Willis
her husband → John Willis
his father → William Willis
his brother → Mary Willis
his wife → Edmond Titus
her father → John Titus
his brother → Abigail Palmer
his wife → William Carpenter, of Rehoboth
her father → William "of the Bevis" Carpenter
his father

Bellinda Gail Myrick-Barnett

This Geni project describes the Delegates to England

https://www.geni.com/projects/Cherokee-Delegations-to-England-in-th...

This book you are quoting from did not get very good reviews.

https://books.google.com/books?id=gwFUCAAAQBAJ&dq=Flying+Eagle+...

Cathey Family: With 32 Immigrant Allied and Collateral Families Jim White
Lulu Press, Inc, Mar 13, 2013 - Biography & Autobiography

I would be quite cautious using his data.

The posts you quote from seem to come from Jonathan R. Rex. Is that this man?

http://karnet.krakow.pl/en/19776-krakow-blood-in-the-water-an-autho...

Jonathan Rex, an American author based in Krakow, will be giving a reading and talk about his recently published book, "Blood in the Water", which recounts the untold story of the armed conflict between Native American tribes and American colonists during the time of the Revolutionary War ....

His website

http://www.jonathanrex.com/about/

http://www.jonathanrex.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/BloodInTheWat...

“... no sources are ever provided as that is the work of an academic minded historian ...”

List of Principal Chiefs of the Cherokee

Principal Chief is today the title of the chief executives of the Cherokee Nation, of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, and of the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians, the three federally recognized tribes of Cherokee. In the eighteenth century, when the people were organized by clans and towns, they would appoint a leader for negotiations with the Europeans. They called him Uku, or "First Beloved Man".

The title of "Principal Chief" was created in 1794 when the Cherokee began to formalize a centralized political structure, forming the original Cherokee Nation. The Cherokee Nation–East adopted a written constitution in 1827, creating a government with three branches: legislative, executive, and judicial. The Principal Chief was elected by the National Council, which was the legislature of the Nation. The Cherokee Nation–West adopted a similar constitution in 1833. The reunited nation adopted one constitution in 1839. In 1868, the Eastern Band created a separate and distinct constitution and formalized the position of Principal Chief. The position had existed in the east since the time of Yonaguska.

In 1906, the US government dismantled the Cherokee Nation's governmental structure under the Dawes Act (except for allowing the tribe to retain limited authority to deal with remaining land issues, which lasted until June 1914).[1] Following passage of the federal Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 and the Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act of 1936, the Keetoowah Nighthawk Society organized in 1939 as the United Keetoowah Band. The Bureau of Indian Affairs approved their constitution in 1940.

The president began appointing a Principal Chief for the non-UKB Cherokee in 1941. In 1975, these Cherokee drafted their constitution as the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, which was ratified on June 26, 1976.[2] In 1999, they approved several changes to the constitution, including the removal of the qualifying phrase "of Oklahoma" from their name, leaving it simply "Cherokee Nation".

Early leaders

Cunne Shote, Cherokee Chief, by Francis Parsons (English), 1762, oil on canvas, Gilcrease Museum[3]
Before 1794, the Cherokee had no standing national government. Their structure was based on clans and towns, which had various leaders. The clans had functions within each town and the tribe. The towns appointed some leaders to represent the tribe to British, French, and (later) American authorities. The range of aboriginal titles were usually translated into English as "chief." The term "emperor" is placed in quotes, since this title was created by Sir Alexander Cuming and was not accepted by the tribe as a whole.[4]

Outacite (d. 1729), peace chief, signed a 1720 treaty with Governor Nicholson, outacite is actually his title[5]
Charitey Hagey of Tugaloo (1716–1721)
Long Warrior of Tanasi (1729–1730)
Wrosetasetow, "emperor" of the Cherokees until 1730;[4] real title was Ama-edohi or "water-goer",[6] served as a trade commissioner[7]
Moytoy of Tellico (also known as Ama-edohi);[4] (d. 1741),[8] declared "emperor" by the British from 1730[9] until 1741,[7] real title was Ama-edohi or "water-goer"[6]
Attakullakulla (or "Little Carpenter", Ada-gal'kala, Attacullaculla, Oukou-naka)[5] (1708/1711[9]–1780[10]), white peace chief from Echota[5] recognized as primary chief by the British,[11] or "president of the nation" from 1762 to 1778[7]
Amouskositte (or Ammouskossittee, Amascossite, Ammonscossittee, Amosgasite, "Dreadfulwater")[8] of Great Tellico (b. ca. 1728), served as "emperor" 1741–1753,[8] son of Moytoy
Old Hop (or Guhna-gadoga,[11] Kanagatucko, and "Standing Turkey")[11](1753–1756),[11] war chief from Echota; either Ammouskossitte's uncle[7] or father.[5]
Moytoy of Citico (or Amo-adaw-ehi), war chief during the Anglo-Cherokee War (1759–1761), nephew of the Moytoy of Tellico.[5]
Uka Ulah (also Ukah Ulah)[7] (d. 1761), "emperor;" nephew of Old Hop,[11]
Stalking Turkey (or Cunne Shote), traveled to England in 1762 with Henry Timberlake[3][12]
Outacite of Keowee (ca. 1703–ca. 1780) (also known as "Judd's Friend",[5] Outacity, Outassite, Outacite, Outassatah, Wootasite, Wrosetasetow,[13] Ostenaco, Outassete,[14] Scyacust Ukah) traveled to England in 1762 with Henry Timberlake[15] chief
Oconostota (also known as Ogan'sto', "Groundhog Sausage") (1712–1781), red war chief of Echota,[16] served entire tribe 1778–1785[7]
Savanukah of Chota (1781–1783)
Old Tassel (or "Corntassel," "Tassel," Kaiyatahee) (d. 1788),[5] peace chief from Echota,[5] served 1783–1788[7]
Raven of Chota (or Colonah), war chief; nephew of Oconostota[5]
Little Turkey, served 1788–1794[7]
opposed by Hanging Maw (or Scolaguta),[5] served 1788–1794
Chickamauga/Lower Cherokee (1777–1809)
In 1777, Dragging Canoe and a large body of Cherokee separated themselves from the tribes which had signed treaties of peace with the Americans during the American Revolution. They migrated first to the Chickamauga (now Chattanooga, Tennessee) region, then to the "Five Lower Towns" area—further west and southwest of there—in order to continue fighting (see Cherokee–American wars). In time, these Chickamauga Cherokee became a majority of the nation, due to both sympathy with their cause and the destruction of the homes of the other Cherokee who later joined them. The separation ended at a reunification council with the Cherokee Nation in 1809.

Chiefs:

Dragging Canoe (1777–1792)
John Watts (1792–1802)
Doublehead, brother of Old Tassel,[5] served 1802–1807
The Glass, or Ta'gwadihi (1807–1809)
Cherokee Nation East (1794–1839)

John Ross, c. 1866
Little Turkey was elected First Beloved Man of the Cherokee (the council seat of which was shifted south to Ustanali near what is now Calhoun, Georgia) in the aftermath of the assassination by frontiersmen of Corntassel (also called Cornsilk) and several other leaders. Hanging Maw of Coyatee, listed above, claimed the title as his right by tradition, as he was the headman of the Upper Towns. Many Cherokee and the US government recognized him as Principal Chief. Little Turkey was finally recognized as "Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation" by all the towns after the end of the Cherokee–American wars, when the Cherokee established their first nominal national government.

Little Turkey (1794–1801)
Black Fox (1801–1811)
Pathkiller (1811–1827)
Big Tiger (1824–1828); self-proclaimed chief of the faction of those in the Nation following Whitepath's teachings (which were inspired by the Seneca prophet Handsome Lake)
Charles R. Hicks (1827), de facto head of government from 1813
William Hicks (1827–1828)
John Ross (1828–1839)
William Hicks (1833–1835), elected principal chief of the faction supporting emigration to the west
Cherokee Nation West (1810–1839)
Originally along the St. Francis and White Rivers in what was first Spanish Louisiana and later Arkansas Territory, the Western Cherokee eventually migrated to Indian Territory after the Treaty of Washington in 1828. They named their capital there Tahlontiskee. John Jolly died while the Latecomers were arriving and John Looney succeeded automatically. Looney was deposed by the council and replaced with Brown with a view toward putting the Cherokee Nation West in a better position vis-a-vis the Ross party. After the murders of Major Ridge, John Ridge, and Elias Boudinot (Treaty party members who supported the Old Settlers) in June 1839, the council had a change of heart about resisting Ross' autocratic demands and deposed Brown, replacing him with Looney. A sizable faction of the Old Settlers refused to recognize Looney and elected Rogers in his stead, but their efforts to maintain autonomy petered out the next year.

The Bowl (1810–1813)
Degadoga (1813–1817)
Tahlonteeskee (1817–1819)
John Jolly (1819–1838)
John Looney (1838–1839)
John Brown (1839)
John Looney (1839)
John Rogers (1839–1840)
Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians (1824–present)

Nimrod Jarret Smith (1837–1893) was 5th Principal Chief of the Eastern Band and a Confederate Army veteran of the Thomas Legion of Cherokee Indians and Highlanders.
The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians is made up of descendants of Cherokee from along the Oconaluftee River in western North Carolina, in today's Cherokee County. The band formed after the treaties of 1817 and 1819 were made between the Cherokee Nation East and the US government; they were outside the former territory. They were later joined by Utsala's band from the Nantahala River in western North Carolina, and those few from the Valley Towns who managed to remain in 1838 following Indian Removal of most of the Cherokee to Indian Territory.

Two principal chiefs have been impeached: Jonathan L. Taylor in 1995 and Patrick Lambert in 2017.[17]

Yonaguska (1824–1839)
William Holland Thomas (1838–1869), European American adopted by the band
Salonitah, or Flying Squirrel (1870–1875)
Lloyd R. Welch (1875–1880)
Nimrod Jarrett Smith (1880–1891)
Stillwell Saunooke (1891–1895)
Andy Standing Deer (1895–1899)
Jesse Reed (1899–1903)
Bird Saloloneeta, or Young Squirrel (1903–1907)
John Goins Welch (1907–1911)
Joseph A. Saunooke (1911–1915)
David Blythe (1915–1919)
Joseph A. Saunooke (1919–1923)
Sampson Owl (1923–1927)
John A. Tahquette (1927–1931)
Jarret Blythe (1931–1947)
Henry Bradley (1947–1951)
Jarret Blythe (1955–1959)
Osley Bird Saunooke (1951–1955)
Jarret Blythe (1955–1959)
Olsey Bird Saunooke (1959–1963)
Jarret Blythe (1963–1967)
Walter Jackson (1967–1971)
Noah Powell (1971–1973)
John A. Crowe (1973–1983)
Robert S. Youngdeer (1983–1987)
Jonathan L. Taylor (1987–1995)
Gerard Parker (1995)
Joyce Dugan (1995–1999)
Leon Jones (1999–2003)
Michell Hicks (2003–2015)
Patrick Lambert (2015-2017)
Richard Sneed (2017–present)
Cherokee Nation in Indian Territory (1839–1907)

Lewis Downing
After removal to the Indian Territory, on the Trail of Tears, a new constitution was put into place, unifying the former Eastern Cherokee with the Western Cherokee, which allowed for direct election of the Principal Chief. Though a holdout minority of the Old Settlers elected John Rogers as their principal chief, his government never gained any further support and soon faded away. The Ross faction also abandoned the established capital of Tahlontiskee and built Tahlequah instead. During the Civil War, the Nation voted to support the Confederacy, and Ross acquiesced for a time. In 1862, however, he and many of his supporters fled to Washington, upon which Stand Watie was elected Principal Chief by a portion of the Nation. The remaining Ross group never supported Watie's election, though, and lived apart under their own officials.

John Ross (1839–1866)
Thomas Pegg, acting principal chief of the Union Cherokee (1862–1863)
Smith Christie, acting principal chief of the Union Cherokee (1863)
Lewis Downing, acting principal chief of the Union Cherokee (1864–1866)
Stand Watie, (1862–1866)
William P. Ross (1866–1867)
Lewis Downing (1867–1872)
William P. Ross (1872–1875)
Charles Thompson (1875–1879)
Dennis Bushyhead (1879–1887)
Joel B. Mayes (1887–1891)
C. J. Harris (1891–1895)
Samuel Houston Mayes (1895–1899)
Thomas Buffington (1899–1903)
William Rogers (1903–1905); deposed by the council
Frank J. Boudinot (1905–1906); also president of the Keetoowah Nighthawk Society
William Charles Rogers (1906)
United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians (1939–present)
The UKB Cherokee are descendants primarily of Old Settlers who organized under the federal Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 and the state Oklahoma Indian Welfare Act of 1936. They ratified their constitution and bylaws and were recognized by the federal government in 1950.

John Hitcher (1939–1946)
Jim Pickup (1946–1954)
Jeff Tindle (1954–1960)
Jim Pickup (1960–1967)
William Glory (1967–1979)
James L. Gordon (1979–1983)
John Hair (1983–1991)
John Ross (1991–1995)
Jim Henson (1996–2000)
Dallas Proctor 2000 – 2004
George Wickliffe 2005 – 2016
Joe Bunch 2016 – Present
Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma/Cherokee Nation (1907–present)

Chad "Corntassel" Smith, former Principal Chief (1999–2011)

Bill John Baker, Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation, at the Cherokee Leaders Conference in 2013
In preparation for Oklahoma statehood, the original Cherokee Nation's governmental authority was dismantled by the United States in 1906, except for limited authority to deal with land issues until 1914,[1] and the office of Principal Chief was appointed by the US federal government. In 1971 an election was held. Principal Chief and incumbent, W.W. Keeler, who had been appointed by President Harry Truman in 1949, was elected. The constitution of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma was drafted in 1975 and ratified on 26 June 1976.[2] A new constitution was ratified in 2003 with the name of the tribe changed to simply "Cherokee Nation".[18]

Appointed
Appointed "Principal Chiefs", many holding the title for only a single day, signed documents and performed other pro forma duties as required by the federal government.

William C. Rogers (1907–1917)
With the admission of Oklahoma to the Union as the forty-sixth state and to terminate any unfinished business of the tribe, an Act of April 26, 1906 (34 Statutes at Large, 148) continued the tribal governments and retained the principal chiefs and governors then in office. Under provisions of this act Rogers continued in office to sign the deeds transferring the lands of the Cherokee Nation to the individual allottees. Upon his death on November 8, 1917 the President of the United States was authorized by this act to appoint Rogers' successor.
Charles J. Hunt (December 27, 1928)
Oliver P. Brewer (May 26, 1931)
William W. Hastings (January 22, 1936)
J.B. Milam (1941–1949)
W.W. Keeler (1949–1971)
Elected
W.W. Keeler (1971–1975)
Ross Swimmer (1975–1985)
Wilma Mankiller (1985–1995)
Joe Byrd (1995–1999)
Chad "Corntassel" Smith (1999–2011)
S. Joe Crittenden (acting, 2011)
Bill John Baker (2011–present)[19]
See also
Indigenous peoples of North America portal
Junaluska
Notes
Conley, p. 198
"Constitution of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma." University of Oklahoma Law Center. (retrieved 16 Jan 2010)
Morand et al 28
Conley 16
Brown, John P. "Eastern Cherokee Chiefs." Chronicles of Oklahoma. Vol. 16, No. 1. March 1938. Retrieved 1 Jan 2013.
Conley 17
Conley 57
Conley 18
Timberlake and King xvii
Fowler xiii
Conley 168
Conley 222
Conley 172
Conley 171
Morand et al 29
Conley, "Encyclopedia," 168-9
Margulis, Abigail (26 May 2017). "Tribal Council votes to impeach Cherokee chief". Asheville Citizen-Times. Retrieved 6 June 2017.
The 1999 Constitution Cherokee Nation. Archived 2009-03-27 at the Wayback Machine. Cherokee Nation. . Retrieved 21 September 2009.
Jouzapavicius, Justin. "Cherokee Nation: Challenger wins chief election." Associated Press. 11 Oct 2011 (retrieved 12 Oct 2011)

Sources
Brown, John P. Old Frontiers. Kingsport: Southern Publishers, 1938.
Conley, Robert J. The Cherokee Nation: A History. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 2008.
Conley, Robert J. A Cherokee Encyclopedia. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, 2007. ISBN 978-0826339515.
Hoig, Stanley. The Cherokees and Their Chiefs: In the Wake of Empire. Fayetteville: University of Arkansas Press, 1998.
McLoughlin, William G. Cherokee Renascence in the New Republic. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1992.
Mooney, James. Myths of the Cherokee and Sacred Formulas of the Cherokee. Nashville: Charles and Randy Elder-Booksellers, 1982.
Moore, John Trotwood and Austin P. Foster. Tennessee, The Volunteer State, 1769–1923, Vol. 1. Chicago: S. J. Clarke Publishing Co., 1923.
Morand, Anne, Kevin Smith, Daniel C. Swan, Sarah Erwin. Treasures of Gilcrease: Selections from the Permanent Collection. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2005. ISBN 978-0-8061-9956-6.
Timberlake, Henry and Duane King. The Memoirs of Lt. Henry Timberlake: The Story of a Soldier, Adventurer, and Emissary to the Cherokees, 1756-1765. University of North Carolina Press, 2007. ISBN 978-0807831267.
Wilkins, Thurman. Cherokee Tragedy: The Ridge Family and the Decimation of a People. New York: Macmillan Company, 1970.

Moytoy of Tellico, (d. 1741)[1] (Amo-adawehi in Cherokee, meaning "rainmaker.")[2] was a prominent leader of the Cherokee in the American Southeast. He was given the title of "Emperor of the Cherokee" by Sir Alexander Cumming, a Scots-Anglo trade envoy in what was then the Province of South Carolina, and is regularly referred to as "King" in official English reports, as this was a familiar term of rank to colonists.[3] He was from Great Tellico, an historic Cherokee town in what is now Tennessee.

In 1730 Cumming, a Scottish adventurer with ties to the colonial government of South Carolina, arranged for Moytoy to be crowned emperor over all of the Cherokee towns in a ceremony intended to appeal to Cumming's colonial sponsors. The Cherokee was crowned in the town of Nikwasi with a headdress referred to as the "Crown of Tannassy." Cumming arranged to take Moytoy and a group of Cherokee to England to meet King George II. Moytoy declined to go, saying that his wife was ill. Attakullakulla (Little Carpenter) volunteered to go in his place. The Cherokee laid the "Crown" at King George's feet, along with four scalps.

According to some authorities, Moytoy's wife was a woman named Go-sa-du-isga,. After the death of Moytoy, his son, Amouskositte, tried to succeed him as "Emperor". However, by 1753 Kanagatucko (Old Hop) of Chota in the Overhill Towns had emerged as the dominant leader in the area.[4]

Notes
Gearing, Fred (1962). Priests and Warriors: Social Structures for Cherokee Politics in the 18th Century.
Brown, p. 538
Grant, Ludovic (2008). "Historical Relation of the Facts". The Journal of Cherokee Studies. XXVI: 64.
Hoig, Stan (1998). The Cherokees and Their Chiefs: In the Wake of Empire. University of Arkansas Press.
Preceded by
Wrosetasatow First Beloved Man
1730–1741 Succeeded by
Amouskositte
Sources
Brown, John P. Old Frontiers. (Kingsport: Southern Publishers, 1938).
Haywood, W.H. The Civil and Political History of the State of Tennessee from its Earliest Settlement up to the Year 1796. (Nashville: Methodist Episcopal Publishing House, 1891).
Litton, Gaston L. "The Principal Chiefs of the Cherokee Nation", Chronicles of Oklahoma 15:3 (September 1937) 253-270 (retrieved August 18, 2006).
Mooney, James. Myths of the Cherokee and Sacred Formulas of the Cherokee. (Nashville: Charles and Randy Elder-Booksellers, 1982).
Ramsey, James Gettys McGregor. The Annals of Tennessee to the End of the Eighteenth Century. (Chattanooga: Judge David Campbell, 1926).

Sir Alexander Cuming: ‘Chief of the Cherokees’

cuming1Alexander Cuming was born in Edinburgh in 1691, of Scottish nobility. At the age of 12 he obtained a Captain’s commission from Queen Anne, and in 1731 he attained Doctor of Law at the University of Aberdeen. He led a company during the Jacobite uprising in 1715, and afterwards become a lawyer, from 1719 in the empl0y of the Duke of Argyll.

Declining the Governorship of Bermuda in 1722, he became second Baronet of Culter on his father’s death in 1725. By 1729 he had enlisted as a member of the Royal Society of London for Improving Natural Knowledge, and had been granted the King’s leave of absence to travel. His reason for travelling to the Americas is unclear – possibly to evade financial difficulties, or simply to make a name for himself.

His journal, however, attributes his departure to a prophetic dream that his wife had, heralding great achievements among the Cherokee people. In March 1730 he made the dangerous journey to the Cherokee mountains (now in South Carolina and Virginia in the United States) as a self-styled diplomat on behalf of his country – with no authority from King or government whatsoever. He must surely have impressed the Cherokee people, because very soon after his arrival they hailed him as a ‘lawgiver, commander, leader and chief’ and presented him with the scalps of their enemies.

The population of the Cherokees was estimated to be around 60,000, and an alliance with the French was close to being forged. Cuming toured the country, and held a great council at Nucassee or Nequassee, near the present Franklin in North Carolina.

Outacite-cherokee-chiekOutacite, the Peace Chief had died in 1729, and had been succeeded by Moytoy of Tellico (‘Rainmaker’). By the consent of the other chiefs, Cuming conferred on Moytoy the title of ‘Emperor of the Cherokees’ and persuaded them to acknowledge the soverignty of King George II. Seven chiefs then accompanied Cuming to London to visit King George II, among them Oukou-naka, who was later to be known as Attacullaculla (the Little Carpenter), one of the greatest Cherokee Chiefs who ever lived. On June 22nd 1730 a treaty was signed between the English and the Cherokee Nation (even though no such ‘nation’ actually existed!) Sir Alexander Cuming became involved in the barbarous debt laws of the time, and was thrown in jail for debt. Consequently he was unable to accompany the Cherokee delegation on their return trip to America. Attacullaculla became Peace Chief, associated with Oconostota as War Chief. The history of the Cherokees for the succeeding forty years is practically the story of these two men.

The Indians loved Cuming, and were much impressed by his imprisonment. They regarded the white men as exceedingly foolish to place a man in jail for debt, thus making it impossible for him to pay!

Moytoy, the Cherokee “Emperor,” died about 1753. Attacullaculla, the Little Carpenter, is remembered as the most influential man of the Cherokee Nation. Sir Alexander Cuming died aged 84 and was buried in East Barnet churchyard on 28th August, 1775. His entry in the Burial Register (Book 5) reads:

“Sir Alexander Comyns, Baronet, Pensioner in the Charterhouse”

Search though you may, you will not find his grave in the churchyard – sadly it has either been damaged and removed, or so eroded that it is now illegible

Information drawn from: Chronicles of Oklahoma Volume 16, No. 1 March, 1938 and EASTERN CHEROKEE CHIEFS By John P. Brown

http://www.stmarys-eastbarnet.org.uk/?page_id=163

Linda (Carr) Buchholz So the problem you’re facing is that (most) of the people are real but the family relationships were fabricated (speculated ... bogused ....).

Jonathan Rex is a storyteller. He does not claim veracity. His book looks interesting if you are interested in the scope defined; Dragging Canoe’s war. But it’s not genealogy, which is record based. Nor does he claim it to be a genealogy, so we do his work a disservice by using it for genealogy.

This is his the tree for the Jonathan Rex ancestor.

Amasa Jane Chandler

So from the Carpenter pedigree quoted, beginning with

20 Richard Carpenter b: 1335 in London, England, d: 1395 in London,England

Here is the Geni tree (I did some cleanup)

Richard 'of London' Carpenter

I have some doubts about the descent accuracy in the next two generations down, but it is clearly nothing to do with Devon Carpenters. It is a Herefordshire family and stayed in that area until turning Puritan and emigrating to New England.

So - a graft of one Carpenter family onto another, and of that Carpenter family into a Passmore emigrant to Jamestown; and then graft that Passmore onto a Shawnee family that were not anywhere near Jamestown. And come up with a string of “Trader Tom Carpenters” who are somehow the same as a Cherokee man.

I’m mot sure where all this is going except in a very bad direction. The Moytoy myth has been exploded for years, including in Susan Reynolds master’s thesis, excerpts of which are posted on Jeannie Roberts’ blog. The early leaders of the Cherokee WERE NOT mixed blood European descendants, or Shawnee or anyone else. These are fictions created by people like Don Greene who are desperate to create a Native American connection for themselves where none exists. It’s also cultural genocide - destroying the actual history of the Cherokee and other native Nations and replacing it with white history is just wrong. This isn’t new, it started with John Smith and other early Europeans, but that doesn’t make it right. Plaese stop.

From the profile for Trader Thomas "Corn Planter" Carpenter, {Fictional}

Please read the following three-part article titled "The Passmore Chronicles" by Susan Reynolds and published on her blog Indian Reservations by Jeanie Roberts. They disprove Carpenter's existence (he has apparently been "created" by someone who misread records of Thomas Passmore, a carpenter in Jamestown, Virginia colony, who later acquired land in Maryland). This man (Passmore) had no life among the Cherokee and could not have been the father of any Cherokee offspring.

My question in all of this is...the folks that paid to get on the final rolls...referred to as $5.00 Indians. Wouldnt their lineages be bogus as well? Just sayin.

The $5 Indians are largely a myth. A handful of families essentially purchased Cherokee citizenship in Indian Territory in the 1890’s, but they are documented. The entire 1896 Cherokee Dawes was thrown out due to rampant fraud and the process begun again under the supervision of the Cherokee Nation. Ten of thousands of people tried to get a share of the Eastern Cherokee payment, but out of 90,000 named people only 30,000 were identified as Cherokee. The Cherokee are extremely well documented, and even today Cherokee Nation is going through the existing records to find errors. If a person was erroneously given citizenship they won’t lose it, but no additional people can register on that record.

Going back to the pedigree quoted in message https://www.geni.com/discussions/179496?msg=1229152

30 William Melun b: Unknown

29 William “The Carpentier” Melun b: 1065 in Unknown; formerly Carpentier

28 Godwin le Carpentier b: 1100 in Melun, France, d: 1194 in Normandy, France

This is the profile for Guillaume “le Charpentier” de Melun

Guillaume "le Charpentier" de Melun, Vicomte de Melun

On the pedigree wrong parents attributed; wrong birth date; and in history, no known wife or children.

He is the only de Melun nicknamed “Carpenter”

CAUTION!
NAME: THOMAS PASMERE / PASSMORE / PASMORE - See OTHER:, 2 & 3 below.
Thomas Passmore, carpenter - an occupation name - not a surname. <---- PLEASE NOTE!

Thomas Pashmere Carpenter b. abt 1607 Plymouth, Devon, England, UK of Robert Carpenter.

The following is presented to show both sides of the argument and you can determine what is more probable for yourself. I concur that Thomas Passmore, carpenter was not a surname Carpenter. JRC

See also:
http://kyusa.addr.com/Cherokee/index.html

Google search for Thomas Pasmere Carpenter
Thomas Pasmere CARPENTER 1607 - 1675
BIRTH: 1607, Plymouth, , Devonshire, England
DEATH: 1675, Running Water Village, Tennessee
BURIAL: The Great Mound, Nikwasi, Franklin, North Carolina
IMMIGRATION: 1627, Jamestown, Virginia [12]
EVENT: Virginia Early Census: 1628, Jamestown, Virginia [13]
EVENT: Fur Trade - Shipping Info: 1635 [14]
Father: Robert CARPENTER
Mother: Susan Pasmere JEFFERY

Family 1 : Pride SHAWNEE
MARRIAGE: By 1630, Shawnee Nation, Virginia
+Moytoy I (Trader) CARPENTER
+Pasmere CARPENTER
_Thomas CARPENTER ___+
(1549 - 1622) m 1576
_Robert CARPENTER ______
(1578 - 1651) m 1599
_Anne STROUD ________
(1550 - 1623) m 1576
--Thomas Pasmere CARPENTER
(1607 - 1675)
_John JEFFERY _______+
(1550 - 1620) m 1577
_Susan Pasmere JEFFERY _
(1579 - 1651) m 1599
_Joane PASMERE ______+
(1551 - 1624) m 1577
INDEX
[12] Name: Thomas Carpenter
Year: 1627
Place: Virginia
Source Publication Code: 275
Primary Immigrant: Carpenter, Thomas
Annotation: Comprehensive listing of early immigrants, in various arrangements to assist the researcher. Pages 1-189 contain
passenger lists; pages 193-295 are indexes.
Source Bibliography: BANKS, CHARLES EDWARD. Topographical Dictionary of 2885 English Emigrants to New England,
1620-1650. Edited, indexed and published by Elijah Ellsworth Brownell. Philadelphia: Bertram Press, 1937. 295p. Reprinted by
Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, 1957. Repr. 1987.
Page: 177
[13] Proof of age by birth year:
Name: THOMAS CARPENTER
State: VA
County: Virginia Colony
Township: Virginia
Year: 1607
Database: VA Early Census Index
[14] The Carpenter family of Devonshire & Plymouth England was small sailing ship owners, many of which were leased out to the East India Trading Company, an affiliation dating to the formation of that company December 31, 1600. We have documented ownership of fifteen different ships owned by the Carpenter family, those of which were involved with moving furs between the Gulf Ports & Glasgow, or Dublin, and trade goods for North America. These ships usually made stops both directions at Barbados where the family had banking connections set up. We have also proved Thomas Pasmere, Trader, and Trader Tom Carpenter made regular trips to Barbados, and on occasion to Glasgow, and Dublin aboard these ships. These ships were small and fast, often able to make the crossing from Scotland and Ireland in less than thirty days. They were shallow draft ships, capable of handling shallow water ports with ease.
The first documented trip made by Thomas Pasmere Carpenter occurred April 1640, sailing from Maryland to Barbados aboard the Hopewell, and returning on the Crispian in September 1640. He made another trip in March 1659 departing Charleston South Carolina aboard the Barbados Merchant, returning on the Concord in August 1659. We have not validated these four ships were owned by the Carpenter family. Ownership of the following ships documented as being owned by the Carpenter family of Devonshire & Plymouth England.
Dorcas 75 tonnes 1665-1671---
Flying Eagle 120 tonnes 1670-1677 ---
Delight 100 tonnes 1678-1682---
Jonas Frigate 80 tonnes 1681-1686---
Tonqueen 130 tonnes 1681-94---
Emerald 103 tonnes 1685-1692---
Pearl 80 tonnes 1685-1694---
Mocha Frigate 150 tonnes 1694-1706---
Sedgwick 100 tonnes 1696-1711---
Advice Frigate 130 tonnes 1700-1702---
Success 180 tonnes 1710-1716---
Arabia Merchant 140 tonnes 1701-1708---
Hester 250 tonnes 1710-1715---
Indian Frigate 130 tonnes 1705-1721---
Goodfellow 140 tonnes 1720-1727---
sharonstarr2626added this on 25 Mar 2009
anndzoriginally submitted this to mcmurray/soma/kuhns/dzieglewicz Family Tree <http://trees.ancestryinstitution.com/pt/ViewStory.aspx?tid=6639933&...; on 1 Jun 2008

About Thomas Carpenter being a "Water Witch", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Granny_Magic
The Appalachian Mountain Witches were also known as “Water Witches”[1] and or “Witch Doctors.” If the witch was more skilled in healing and midwifery she might be referred to as a Witch Doctor. However, if she dowsed for water or energy vortexes she would be referred to as a Water Witch. Often Appalachian Witches held both titles if they were skilled in both fields of magic. These witches did not often practice their traditions with outsiders. The Appalachian Granny Magic traditions were often passed down from one generation to another. Parents would teach their children these traditions. Due to living in a secluded area these customs and practices were less likely to be lost or altered, like most other traditions that were brought over to the new world. The location of the Appalachian Mountains was able to preserve the ancient Irish and Scottish songs, dances, and recipes better than that of Ireland and Scotland. The ancient Appalachian Witchcraft was able to survive in the secluded mountains of Georgia, Tennessee, the Carolinas, the Virginias and Kentucky during a time when witchcraft was being abandoned by the new modern world. These people who remained in the mountains had to continue to rely on the earth in order to survive, even though people who lived in the city no longer needed to. The crops and the livestock were of great importance to those who lived in the Appalachians of the 1900 just as much as it was to the early colonist of the 1600’s. Therefore the deities they worshiped remained part of their faith and did not fade into a mythic memory. Twenty year old Thomas Pasmere Carpenter came to Jamestown, Virginia from England in 1627, living in a cave near the Shawnee . Thomas was called "Cornplanter" by the Shawnee, derived from their sign language that matched as near as possible to the work of a carpenter. He married a Shawnee woman named "Pride" and bore a son around 1635 named Trader Carpenter.
Trader was taught to “witch” for water with a willow stick by the Shawnee. He married a Shawnee named Locha in 1658 and the clan grew quickly. In 1660, they were driven south by the Iroquois. They moved along the Tennessee River, starting the villages of Running Water (where Thomas died in 1675), Nickajack, Lookout Mountain, Crowtown and Chota. He was Chief of Chota, which was created as a merging place of refuge for people of all tribes, history or color. It became similar to a capital for the Cherokee nation. These villages grew to about 2000 people by 1670 when the Carpenter clan moved to Talikwa (Great Tellico) where the Tellico River emerges from the Appalachian Mountains. Here Trader married a Cherokee , Quatsy of the Wolf Clan in 1680. He had become so adept at water witching that the Cherokee called him "water conjurer" or Ama Matai (Ama is Cherokee for water). Ama Matai eventually became pronounced as Amatoya. It was later shortened to “Moytoy”, so he is known as Moytoy I.
In 1730, his son, Trader-Tom (Moytoy II) took over as Chief, receiving what was described as the “Crown of Tannassy”. Tanasi was where the previous Chief resided and the traditional headdress was passed on to him. The fur trading Carpenter family owned many ships. Though he served as Cherokee Chief, Thomas made several trips to Barbados over the years where the Carpenters did banking, and even to Scotland and Ireland. On occasion he took Trader, and Trader Tom with him. They traded furs and healing herbs brought from America.
Cherokee traded furs for cloth. The cloth was not only used for clothing, but also to pay the Shamans for treatment. Though the medicine men did not charge for medical practice, they required a form of payment for performing love charms, hunting ceremonials, and other conjures. Beads were used in many instances, which the patient was required not only to furnish the beads, but also a certain quantity of new cloth upon which to place them. At the close of the ceremony the medicine man would roll up the cloth, beads and all, and take it with him. Custom required that he not use the cloth, but had to be sold. The practice was sometimes repeated over a period of days, each time requiring new cloth. Some Shamans would sell the required cloth to the patient himself, then take the used cloth with him.
The Cherokee, Shawnee and other Shamans (medicine men) traded secrets when they met. These were passed on orally before the Sequoya method of writing was developed. According to archeologist James Mooney “It was the practice when one shaman met another whom he thought might give him some valuable information, would say to him, "Let us sit down together." This was understood by the other to mean, "Let us tell each other our secrets." It was necessary to cultivate a long memory, as none were repeated more than once for his benefit. It was considered that one who failed to remember after the first hearing was not worthy to be accounted a shaman.”[1] When illness struck the white settlers and traditional methods of healing failed, they sometimes turned to friendly Cherokee nearby. This also provided the medicine men with new opportunities to obtain cloth and other goods from them in return. These methods were soon incorporated into the beliefs the settlers brought with them from Europe.
The Cherokee believed in at least two types of witches. The “Night Goer” or “sûnnâ'yï edâ'hï “ came at night to bring to the home. Alternatively, what might be called a good witch, “u'ya igawa'stï “ saturated the medicine given by the medicine man and by counteracting the spell, killed the Night Goer.[2] The settlers absorbed these ideas into their lives to the point that even milk that soured could be caused by the “evil eye” or the look of a witch. Soured milk came to be called “blinked milk”.
The settlers combined elements of their own witchcraft traditions with those of the native Cherokee. Some witches in this tradition specialized in dowsing , or healing and midwifery .
The isolation of mountain communities protected the traditions of Appalachian Granny Magic from alteration or persecution from outside. The people of the Appalachians lived a farming life that changed little from the 1700s to the 1900s, and their close connection to the earth kept Appalachian Granny Magic relevant throughout this time.
Beliefs and Traditions
The Scottish and Irish settlers believed that their fairy folk and leprechauns followed them to the new country. In addition, the Cherokee had little neighbors of their own who were called "Yunwi Tsunsdi," meaning "The Little People." The Appalachian Mountain Witches give offerings to the wee people daily. A granny woman will make offerings by leaving a bowl of cream at the back door. She will throw a bit of cornbread cake out of her window before serving the rest to her family. The Appalachian Witches also believe in spirits of the dead and seek out the guidance of ancestral spirits. One type of ancestral spirit that is feared are the angry "Haints". One spell that protects a home against haints requires that its doors be painted Haint Blue, which is a baby blue color with a slight tint of periwinkle.
Many of the older Granny Magic spells are sung and danced; clogging is one of the forms of dance. Appalachian spells are also known to have chants, gigs, and lullabies. During Samhain and funerals the song "Auld Lang Syne" is sung. It is also sung during the secular new year.
Divination is popular with Granny Witches. Appalachian Granny Witches read tea leaves, tarot cards and regular playing cards, and clouds . They will also use bowls of dirt, sand, or water for scrying . Rods made from dogwood or other types of flowering tree such as an apple or peach tree are used for water dowsing, and metal rods are used for energy dowsing. A cauldron is usually preferred over a chalice by an Appalachian Witch. A cauldron displayed in a granny witch's front yard lets people know that her services are available. Brooms, pottery, candles, mirrors and baskets, all made by hand in the home, are other tools used in this tradition. Appalachian witches have usually considered ritual clothing to be impractical, but some modern Appalachian Witches have begun to use ritual clothing in order to preserve their way of life and religion for future Appalachian Granny Witches.
^ Sacred Forumulas of the Cherokee Shamans by James Mooney. Cherokee Heritage Documentation Center (2008). Retrieved on 2008- 06-22.
^ Sacred Formulas of the Cherokees by James Mooney. Cherokee Heritage Documentation Center (2008). Retrieved on 2008- 06-22.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Granny _Magic"
sharonstarr2626added this on 25 Mar 2009
csyncereoriginally submitted this to CynThia Syncere <http://trees.ancestryinstitution.com/pt/ViewStory.aspx?tid=1187552&...; on 30 Jun 2008
taken from Appalacian Granny Magic in Wiki and Sacred formulas of the Cherokees by James Mooney retrieved 22 June 2008

MORE:
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 15:49:57 -0800
From: "Donna Cuzze" <dcuzze@earthlink.net <mailto:dcuzze@earthlink.net>>
Subject: [CARPENTER] More on Thomas Pasmore
To: <carpenter@rootsweb.com <mailto:carpenter@rootsweb.com>>
Message-ID: <D4D6CFA7A85F4861B0A2634E8BDB48BE@DKCUZPC <mailto:D4D6CFA7A85F4861B0A2634E8BDB48BE@DKCUZPC>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"

Looking at the information below, I think the logical conclusion is that Thomas Passmore of early Virginia was not a carpenter by surname but of occupation. Hope this helps someone.

THOMAS PASMERE / PASSMORE / PASMORE (the Carpenter) compiled by Donna Cuzze

Cavaliers and Pioneers. Abstracts of Virginia Land Patents and Grants, 1623-1666, Vol. I

THOMAS PASSMORE, Carpenter, 12 acs. Within the corporation of James City, adj. Mary Holland Aug: 14, 1624, p.10. Part of his first devident and for trans. of his servant John Buckmaster who came in the great Hopewell in 1623. Fee Rent: 3 pence. Ground measure by Willi. Clayborne. [this is as written with all text and puncuation same as the book].

MARY HOLLAND, 12 acs, Aug: 14, 1624. Page 11. Wife of Gabriel Holland, of the island of James City, Yeoman. Lately in the occupation of Wm. Pinke alias Wm. Jonas, dcsd, her former husband, who at his death gave her his devident of 100 acres of which sd. 12 acres is a part, adj. Nathaniel Hutt and Thos. Passmore. Fee Rent: 3 pence. Measured by Wm. Clayborne. [note the word carpenter does not appear in this one at all]

JOHN SOUTHERNE, Gent., of James City, 24 acs in the Island of James Citty. 1 Nov 1627. ? adj. to S. of land Mary Holland, N. land of John Johnson, E. on a marsh and W. comeing near unto land of Thomas Passmore. ... [again there is no mention of carpenter]

ROBERT MARSHALL, planter, 10 acs. Within the Island of James City. W. on land of Mary Bayley (was Holland), E. on land of Thomas Passmore, Carpenter, ?. 20 Sept 1628 p. 92. [I found the original doc which does 'not' have commas around Carpenter]

MR. EDWARD TRAVIS, 196 acs in James City Island near Black Poynt. 10 March 1652, p.158. Bounded ?. 24 acres grannted unto John Southerne, formerly belonging unto Thomas Passmore ?..... [again no carpenter]

NOTE: There was a Pasmore Creek in James City but there was not a Carpenter Creek.

The Complete Book of Emigrants, 1607-1776 Updated 1626.
List of the names of the living in Virginia and of those who have died since April 1623: February 16, 1624
At James City & with the Corporation thereof

Living: Sir Frances Wyatt, governor; Margrett Lady Wyatt; Hant Wyatt,
minister; Kathren Spencer; Thomas Hooker; John Gather; John Matheman; Edward Cooke; George Nelson; George Hall; Jane Burtt; Elizabeth Pomell; Mary Woodward; Sir George Yeardley, Knight; Temperance Lady Yeardly; Argall Yeardley; Frances Yeardley; Elizabeth Yeardley; Kilibett Hichcocke; Austen Combes; John Foster; Richard Arrundell; Susan Hall; Ann Grimes; Elizabeth Lyon; (------) Younge; 2 negro women. Alice Davison, widow; Edward Sharples; Jone Davies. George Sands, Treasurer;
Captain William Perce; Jone Perce; Robert Hedges; Hugh Williams; Thomas Moulston; Henry Farmor; John Lightfoote; Thomas Smith; Roger Ruese; Allexander Gill; John Cartwright; Robert Austine; Edward Bricke; William Ravenett; Jocomb Andrews; Andrews' wife; Richard Alder; Ester Evere; Angelo, a negro. Doctor John Pott; Elizabeth Pott; Richard Townsend; Thomas Leister; John Hullaway; Randall Howlett; Jane
Dickinson; Fortune Taylor. Captain Roger Smith; Mrs. Smith; Elizabeth Salter; Sara Macocke; Elizabeth Rolfe; Chri(stopher) Lawson; Lawson's wife; Frances Fouller; Charles Waller; Henry Booth. Captain Raph Hamor; Mrs. Hamor; Jereme Clement; Elizabeth Clement; Sara Langley; Sisley Greene; Ann Addams; Elkinton Ratclife; Francis Gibson; James Yemanson.
John Pountis; Christopher Best; Thomas Clarke; Mr. Reignolds; Mr. Hickmore; Hickmore's wife; Sara Riddall. Edward Blaney; Edward Hudson; Hudson's wife; William Hartley; John Shelley; Robert Bew; William Ward; Thomas Mentis; Robert Whitmore; Robert Chauntrie; Robert Sheppard; William Sawier; Lanslott Damport; Mathew Loyd; Thomas Ottway; Thomas Crouch; Elizabeth Starkey; Elinor (------). Mrs. Perry, infant Perry;
Frances Chapman; George Graves; Graves' wife; Rebecca Snowe; Sara Snowe; John Isgrave; Mary Ascombe, widow; Benamy Bucke [BucksRowe?];
Gercyon Bucke; Peleg Bucke; Mara Bucke; Abram Porter; Brigett Clarke; Abigall Ascombe; John Jackson; Jackson's wife; Ephraim Jackson. Mr. John Burrows; Mrs. Burrows; Anthony Burrows; John Cooke; Nicholas Gouldsmith; Elias Gaile; Andrew Howell; Ann Ashley. ??John Southern;?? >>>>THOMAS PASMORE <<<<<

Andrew Ralye. Nathaniell Jefferys; Jefferys' wife; Thomas Hebbs. Clement Dilke; Mrs. Dilke; John Hinton. Richard Stephens; Wassell Rayner; Rayner's wife; John Jackson; Edward Price; Osten Smith; Thomas Spilman; Bryan Cawt. George Minify; Moy(s)es Ston. Captain Holmes; Mr. Calcker; Mrs. Calcker; infant Calcker; Peceable Sherwood; Anthony West; Henry Barker;
Henry Scott; Margery Dawse. Mr. Cann; Captain Hartt; Edward Spalding; Spalding's wife; boy Spalding; girl Spalding; John Helin; boy Helin; infant Helin. Thomas Graye and wife; Jone Graye; William Graye; Richard Younge; Younge's wife; Jone Younge. Randall Smalwood; John Greene; William Mudge. Mrs. Sothey; Ann Sothey; Elin Painter. Goodman Webb.
[Gabriel Holland is among the living at the College land. Listed among the dead is DIXI CARPENTER]

OTHER2:
<http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CherokeeGene/2009-04/...;

From: "Joy King" <joyk@sc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [CherokeeGene] Thomas Pasmere Carpenter Link
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:58:13 -0400
References: <608104.10706.qm@web32007.mail.mud.yahoo.com><B3791AB11CB64189BE16343AE5AB3272@kathie><E8B014A52E0F4EA89B44E3BC5D08676F@joyce960dd5c4b>

Joyce,

We've already been down this road ;-)

In June 2005, I *proved* the man in the VA records was Thomas PASSMORE, a carpenter!

Email correspondence 6/15/05
Thank you for your reply, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on what the VA *records* show and *facts* are regarding Thomas Pasmere Carpenter vs Thomas Passmore, carpenter.

I have looked at the original VA patent that is indexed as Carpenter, Thomas Pasmere and can see why you have presented it as such, but combined with the additional records it becomes very clear this is actually Thomas Passmore who is a carpenter by trade, is on the list of the living in James City in Feb. 1623/4 (after the Indian massacre), Listed with his wife Jane in 1624/5, and paid for the transportation of his servant in 1623.

As for the land itself, the following shows all of the patent entries are in reference to the same land patented to Thomas PASSMORE (carpenter by trade), and the MARSHALL patent *borders* his land. I see nothing that indicates otherwise.
Nugent, Cavaliers And Pioneers, 56-57:
Patent Book No.1 Part 1- John RADISH & John BRADWELL, 16 ac. James Citty Island, 20 May 1637, p.423. 12 acs. abutting E. upon land formerly in possession of MARY HOLLAND, W. upon the bounds & limits there determined, S. upon the highway runing clost to Goose Hill marsh & extending Nwd. 40 pole, being the breadth; the length from E. to W. 48 po.; the other 4 acs. adj. sd. land, EDWARD TRAVIS his land abutting Nly. upon it. The whole 16 acs. due sd. RADISH by deed of sale from John BALDWIN, late of James Island, Gent., & now the moitye due sd. BRADWELL by contract & bargaine between sd. RADISH & BRADWELL.

P.3: THOMAS PASSMORE, Carpenter, 12 ac. within the corporation of James City, adj. MARY HOLLAND Aug: 14, 1624, p.10. Part of his first devident and for trans. of his servant John BUCKMASTER who came in the great Hopewell in 1623. Fee Rent: 3 pence. Ground measured by Willi. CLAYBORNE.

P.8: John SOUTHERNE, Gent. of James City, . . . 1st Nov. 1627 . . . 12 acs. lying near adj. to the former, S. on land of MARY HOLLAND, the wife of Gabriell HOLLAND, N. on land of John JOHNSON, E. on a marsh & W. comeing neare unto land of THOMAS PASSMORE; . . .

Note JK: John SOUTHERN is Listed next to Thomas PASMORE on the list of the living in 1623/4.

P.12: Robert MARSHALL, Planter, 10 acs. within the Island of James Citty, W. on land of Mary BAYLY, E. on land of THOMAS PASSMORE, Carpenter, S. on the highway adj. to the Marshes of Goose hill & W. upon the highway parting the same from land now in the occupation of Elmer PHILLIPPS. 20 Sept. 1628, p.92.

P.271: Mr. Edward TRAVIS, 196 acs. in James City Island . . . 10 Mar. 1652, p.158. Bounded N. upon the back river, E. upon the same, S. upon land of Mr. Chyles & Goose Hill Marsh & W upon David ELLIS & Mr. CROSSBYS land. 24 acs. granted unto JOHN SOUTHERENE; 16 acs. formerly belonging unto THOMAS PASSMORE; 12 acs. formerly granted unto John SENIOR, in all 52 acs., which is since purchased by TRAVIS; . . .

I have no known connection to any of this but still think you have misinterpreted this portion of your research. It's highly unlikely a Thomas Pasmere Carpenter and a Thomas Passmore, carpenter, were in the same area.

I sincerely wish you good luck with your research.

Joy
6/16/05:,
Thanks for confirming my analysis of the patent book entries. I do appreciate your letting me know.

I should also let you know: "the early land patents in the volumes in the Land Office are not the original entries, but are transcriptions. Book I (in two volumes), transcribed in the year 1683, is the work of the Clerk Edward Harrison."
Nugent, Cavaliers And Pioneers, xxiii Introduction by Robert Armistead Stewart- The Land Patents.

As I said before, I have no known connection to the Carpenter family, but I am curious as to what record (ship passenger list?) you have used to prove the statement:
"Thomas departed Plymouth England bound for the lands across the sea, arriving in Virginia late 1627."

I also have some concerns about the 1628 list (militia muster roll?). How are you confirming the Thomas Carpenter (no middle name) on that list is Thomas Pasmere Carpenter?

The appearance of this Thomas Carpenter on this 1628 list *confirms* this person is living on, and a working member of, one of the James City plantations (Hundreds). The necessity of the list was to make sure they had enough men available to fight the Indians "our irreconcileable enemies".
http://vagenweb.org/hening/vol01-05.htm
p.131 LAWS OF VIRGINIA, FROM 1623 TO 1629
Also see:
http://vagenweb.org/hening/vol01-06.htm

This is definitely a contradiction to your statement:
"Since he was only twenty years old, he could not apply for a land grant, so young Thomas found a small, unoccupied cave a short distance from Jamestown. He brought many supplies with him unknowing the future, and what it would bring, and he managed to live throughout the winter in the relative comfort afforded inside the naturally insulated home. By trial and error he learned many different trapping methods that first winter, and managed to process a moderate number of valuable furs."

Just more food for thought ;-)

Joy

----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce G. Reece
To: cherokeegene@rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [CherokeeGene] Thomas Pasmere Carpenter Link

How many sources of documentation did you see on this site?

I'm very afraid that this Carpenter legend/myth will turn into another Brock/Redbird fiasco.

Joyce Gaston Reece, Secretary
Friends of the Archives Historical & Preservation Society
Monroe County, TN
www.rootsweb.com/~tnfahps

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathie M. Donahue" <kdonahue@centurytel.net>
To: <cherokeegene@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:48 AM
Subject: [CherokeeGene] Thomas Pasmere Carpenter Link

> There's this one......
>
> http://www.kyusa.addr.com/Cherokee/index.html
>
> Kathie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This thread:

•Re: [CherokeeGene] Thomas Pasmere Carpenter Link by "Dan M." <mygen2@d-matney.com>
◦[CherokeeGene] Thomas Pasmere Carpenter Link by "Kathie M. Donahue" <kdonahue@centurytel.net>
◦Re: [CherokeeGene] Thomas Pasmere Carpenter Link by "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net>
◦Re: [CherokeeGene] Thomas Pasmere Carpenter Link by "Joy King" <joyk@sc.rr.com>

◦Re: [CherokeeGene] Thomas Pasmere Carpenter Link by "Joyce G. Reece" <bjreece@bellsouth.net>

OTHER3:
<http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SELF/2011-03/13006704...;
…
There is, indeed, spreading on the Internet the story of one Thomas Pasmere Carpenter being a settler at Jamestown about 1627. There he is SAID to marry a Shawnee girl named "Pride" - a name very suspect as it follows no naming pattern of any Indian Nation. They are SAID to have a son named Trader Carpenter about 1635 who the reader is led to believe is Amatoya although it is not said outright, merely inferred. Later Amatoya would be called Moytoy and became chief of Tellico town way down in TN between what is now Knoxville and Chattanooga. His name is said to be a combination of the Cherokee word for water - ama and a French word matai. This is supposed to mean "Water Conjurer" but the French verb matai means to subdue, to master, to watch, not to conjure. Matai is a Hebrew variation of the name Matthew. But why would he have a Cherokee and French name if his mother was a Shawnee and his father English at a time in Colonial Jamestown where the Cherokee were not likely!
known and the French were anathema? The two languages are very different Shawnee being Algonquian and Cherokee being Iroquoian. The Cherokee name Amadoya (Amatoya) can have different meanings, depending on how it is *pronounced*. If it is A-ma-do-ya it means more akin to water beaver (a-ma being water and do-ya being beaver). If it is Am-a-do-ya it is salt beaver. And the do-ya can be pronounced different ways as well. It largely depends on the dialect. There is credible thought to the name being a derivative of Amo-adawehi which more closely means "rainmaker". It is unknown whether this is a given name or a title. And it was common for Cherokee names to change throughout life depending on events and personal characteristics. Yes, the Cherokee and Shawnee were at one time friendly (well AFTER 1635) when the Cherokee gave shelter to a band of Shawnees in the 1660s, although not long after they became bitter enemies and were not allied again until 1776. They are n!
ot similar peoples.

Someone in this thread says there are Carpenter family journals in England that give this information, but so far no one has been willing to produce them. They should be taken to a museum or historical society to be authenticated. Then they should be shared, preferably in a digitized format so people can judge for themselves. When you are dealing with well-known, already well-documented people, there is going to be a very high degree of skepticism - and there should be - when unsupported information is put out that claims to go back beyond the limits of recorded and recordable history and counters known documentation.

There were also NO historical reports of the Shawnee around Jamestown. The others that came there, or with whom the settlers fought or traded, were named, but no mention of the Shawnee, (just as there was no mention of the Cherokee) in those early years. In fact, in the early part of the 17th century, the only possible mention of them came from the Dutch in 1614 who reported the Sawwanew east of the Delaware River, the traditional lands of the Shawnee - and others - but this word generally just meant southern. The French found them mostly along the Ohio River in the 17th century. But they were never mentioned around Jamestown.

In the interest of fairness and looking at all the angles, there IS a *legend* that under Chief Opechancanough, who was the leader of the Powhatan Confederacy between about 1618 until its end in 1644, a group was sent out, led by his son Sheewa-a-ne, to settle the Shenandoah Valley. It is said the Shawnee descended from this group and are named for the son. An explorer named Edward Bland about 1650 wrote about an argument between two of the leaders in Chief Opechancanough's time, resulting in one murdering the other. This might have occasioned the party leaving, especially if his son was one of the parties involved and being sent away into exile or for safety's sake, but this is not known. It makes more sense for this to have happened just before the end of the Powhatan "Confederacy" which was largely destroyed by the British in 1644, when a treaty with the Powhatan allies led to the first "reservation" of land in the colonies (not an Indian Reservation as we know it toda!
y). In either case, IF the legend IS true, there were NO Shawnee before at the earliest 1618, so "Pride", if she existed, who was born about 1615 according to the story was probably from one of the Nations in the Powhatan Confederacy around Jamestown as the Shawnee would have arisen in the Shenandoah Valley according to the legend. Could she have been one of the group sent out to settle the Shenandoah? Certainly, that's possible. Could they have come back to visit and brought Pride along? Certainly that is a possibility, but how likely given the turmoil? If they were sent out, it was more likely it was to preserve the people and their culture, to find a safe place for them all to live in peace. We can't really answer that, can we? But again, this statement of Shawnee heritage tends to lose its validity as the traditional lands for the Shawnee are not the Shenandoah Valley - although they did come and settle there eventually - and their language is NOT closely relate!
d to any in the Powhatan Confederacy, but closer to that of the Sauk-F
ox and Kickapoo who lived around Detroit, Saginaw Bay and the Wabash area of Indiana. You would expect the Shawnee language to be identical to, or at least VERY close to that of the Powhatan Nation if they were, indeed, descendants of Chief Opechancanough. This tends to negate the story. Keep in mind THIS IS ONLY A LEGEND and there is no proof. No one really knows where the Shawnee came from only where they were and were not. Also keep in mind that the colony of Virginia covered a huge area that at one time stretched almost to Canada, nearly to the Pacific and included all of what is now KY, OH, VA, WV, parts of TN, NC, MD and some of the Caribbean Islands, so it is rightly recorded they were located in Virginia Colony, but you need to do your homework and know WHERE in the VA of that time and compare it to the US of this time to know if the location is logical. I believe if the Shawnee had been around Jamestown, they would have appeared in the records along with al!
l the other Indian Nations that were chronicled there.

How did a mixed White/Shawnee boy from Jamestown Virginia become a much loved and respected Cherokee chief in Tennessee? That doesn't make a lot sense. I'm not saying it couldn't happen. Given Cherokee history and the number of mixed-blood chiefs that led, I suppose it very well could, but they ALL had Cherokee blood, not just another Nation's. There would be more to the story than that and there would have been some historical note of it prior to the last few years as Moytoy was a well-known personage in both Cherokee and White society. The British were VERY big on antecedents and his would have been explored. (This Moytoy was NOT one of the Cherokees who went to England on a "peace" mission with Attakullakulla and others in 1730. That was possibly his grandson.) There was never any mention in any history - European OR Cherokee - of Moytoy's parents being other than Cherokee AND the accounts of the time have him being from Chota, not Jamestown. The earliest RECORD o!
f Cherokee contact in Virginia is in 1668 or 1669.

There are some large problems with this lovely and romantic account.

1. There does NOT appear to be a Thomas Pasmere CARPENTER on the census in Jamestown. There DOES appear to be a Thomas PASSMORE and his wife Jane on the muster (census) of 1624/25. Other records in Colonial VA show him to have been a carpenter by trade, but not to own that trade as a surname. The following is from the official Jamestown site where they have posted transcripts and extracts of the early documents. You should still try to see the originals. <http://www.virtualjamestown.org/Muster/search.muster.cgi?muster=Pas...; Thomas%&start_page=0&search_type=adv
You can find a discussion of that here on the CherokeeGene mailing list: <http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CherokeeGene/2009-04/...; Joy is a meticulous researcher and gives her sources.
Contact Jamestown yourself and ask if you can get copies.

You will see the following source citation for some of the sites carrying the story of Thomas Pasmere Carpenter, but you should note whether they give an EXACT page number or not. So far I haven't found one. Without the page number this is simply a bibliography listing, it is not a source. Even if you find a page number, you need to check with Jamestown to see if the original document is available and if you can order a copy:
Immigration: 1627, Jamestown, Virginia. Name: THOMAS CARPENTER : -- Source Publication Code: 275 Annotation: Comprehensive listing of early immigrants, in various arrangements to assist the researcher. Pages 1-189 contain passenger lists; pages 193-295 are indexes. Source Bibliography: BANKS, CHARLES EDWARD. Topographical Dictionary of 2885 English Emigrants to New England, 1620-1650. Edited, indexed and published by Elijah Ellsworth Brownell. Philadelphia: Bertram Press, 1937. 295p. Reprinted by Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, 1957. Repr. 1987.

I went and had a look at this particular reference. Firstly, Virginia was not New England. Secondly, there IS a Thomas Carpenter referenced on page 177. Page 177 is entitled Wiltshire, the location given in the story for Thomas Pasmere Carpenter's origins. It gives his name, the parish he was from - Amesbury, and the reference for the source of the entry - Pope. When you look up Pope in the key it is Pioneers of Massachusetts, published in 1900. This is obviously not the Thomas Pasmere Carpenter of the story who is chronicled as coming to Jamestown direct, although Barbados is mentioned, too, but not Massachusetts.

2. You can see a digitized copy of his original land grant at James City (Jamestown) made in 1624 NOT in 1627 when he is claimed in the account above to have arrived: <http://lva1.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/F/FNA4AJHEYIV93235VUFLASYG2NU7...; Click the link at the beginning of the index entry. This grant is one of those documents which proves his trade is carpenter not his surname. If you can't read it - very hard with the old script and kind of grainy - it reads in part "...to Thomas Passmore of James City Carpenter and to his heirs and assigns forever..." and there is an extract of the grant in the book The Cradle of the Republic: Jamestown and the James River. Google Thomas Passmore Jamestown and look for the link to Google Books. This book is downloadable in its entirety and is a volume including extracts of the documents from Jamestown. (It still requires verification as extrac!
ts can contain errors. We are human after all - :)) My 13th great grandfather, William Claiborne, surveyed and patented the land Thomas Passmore received - way cool to see that!

3. The name Thomas Pasmere Carpenter appears to come from an INDEX entry for the land grant of one Robert Marshall in 1628 with a reference to his new lease adjoining that of Thomas Pasmore (sic). You can see that land grant here: <http://lva1.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/F/IC7FYNBB5T7JTSLNDRPVEFJ32IYK...; Click the link at the beginning of the index entry. This grant, on careful examination, does show the name Pasmore, maybe Passmore (it's just hard to tell for sure whether that is another s or the hump of the M. My read is single s), but not Pasmere.

There are stories on the Web, all word for word the same about Thomas Pasmere Carpenter and his Shawnee wife Pride. These are all obviously cut and pasted from someplace else. One such site, <http://mornstarz.blogspot.com/&gt; makes the following claim (cut and pasted from the site)

- --- The "lease" granted to THOMAS PASMERE CARPENTER was abandoned when Carpenter went to live with the Indians mid 1628. The lease was then passed to Robert Marshall 20 September 1628. Source of Documentation . Jamestown Records, Virginia Archives, Virginia Land Grants. - - -

But that's not what the grant to Marshall says. It says his land adjoined that of Mary Bayly and Thomas PASMORE. Nowhere does it state Thomas had abandoned the lease and it was being given to Marshall, it says they were neighbors. It IS indexed as Thomas Pasmere Carpenter, but when you read the grant - and you have to know something of old writing styles, particularly that they often wrote in the ancient Roman, ie Latin, manner WITHOUT punctuation and the forms of the letters - you can see it is Thomas Pasmore, not Pasmere, and Carpenter does follow and there is absolutely no punctuation anywhere. However, the other records all show this to be his trade. This Thomas Pasmere Carpenter is supposedly the person the previously posted Shawnee lineage for Amatoya Moytoy is based on. The fact that it comes from the on-line INDEX to the Virginia Land Grants at the Library of VA and is copyrighted 2005 leads me to believe this name only appeared at that time and not before and !
is a very modern piece of information, not an old family account. Printed references that extract this land grant - ie, Adventurers of Purse and Person, one of the premier sources of extracted records of Colonial Virginia, among others (but still only a tool, not a substitute for the originals), show Pasmore or Passmore and most add the comma after the surname and before Carpenter, accounting for the lack of punctuation in the document, based on the forms of the times.

When we take true/false tests we are always told to apply this premise: If any part of the answer is false, it's all false. That should not vary just because this is genealogy. Scientific proof is still scientific proof. Legal proof is still legal proof. The standard is to apply the burden of proof and the burden of proof depends on preponderance of evidence. In a court of law, would this hold up? No, it would not. There is more than reasonable doubt here as the very basis for the parentage of Moytoy is flawed, making the claim of Catherine "Rising Fawn Fox" Smallpox Conjurer as his descendant flawed as well and extremely suspect. This makes a great difference. If there is a Carpenter family journal that can refute the official colonial records and original land grants, someone needs to produce it, otherwise, this story must be considered a fabrication, based on an indexing error.

If the name Catherine "Rising Fawn Fox" Smallpox Conjurer comes from the Shawnee book - and like I said, I can't find it - look to see what proof he offers. Write to him and ask him to support the conclusions with documentation. But I don't think that's what his book says, that's a misread. I'm really not sure WHAT his book claims about Thomas Pasmere Carpenter. His way of presenting is convoluted, it's impossible to make anything of it. What is said in one place often appears to be negated in another. No wonder there's so much confusion. If he's been doing genealogy for 40 years, he knows to present in a form that's readable and understandable. This book is not, which leaves it open to misinterpretation and misquotation. And I could not find sources anywhere to support this, only the cut and pasted stories that flow from the Moytoy story. There are millions of unsupported and totally incorrect lineages floating around, especially on the Web, that are suddenly accep!
ted as gospel and copied into family trees without the first bit of research to corroborate them, then pass into acceptance as fact when they are fiction. Why? Because they are "in print so they must be so." NOT. Even Burke's Peerage - the most highly regarded of all publications on the Peerage, Gentry, etc of Great Britain, the American Presidents and others, is periodically revised to correct errors as well as add new material. They don't claim to be perfect, but they are perfectly conscientious and scrupulous in applying genealogic standards. Apply the burden of proof rule, please, and don't accept things just because you see them in print. This is a blending of several families and none of the "proof" offered is proof, it is theory that dissipates in the face of the proof that DOES exist.

If this information is predicated on the Asa Skelton Bible, copies of those pages are at the four links below. The corroborating evidence mentioned as being there is not just as David Newlin said it was not. There is no way from this Bible record to connect to the Cherokee.
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~selffam/album3/a1...;
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~selffam/album3/a1...;
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~selffam/album3/a1...;
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~selffam/album3/a1...;

If you have this information posted in a family tree, please take it down or if you really feel you must keep it posted on-line, in some way alter it so it is understood there is no proof and it is simply SAID to be, then look for the proof. I hope you find the proof - real proof, not just a printed something - and can prove what I've found wrong. I make mistakes, too. That would show someone was REALLY researching this family and this information, not just accepting at face value what someone has gotten from someone who has gotten from someone. That's REAL genealogy. If you don't want real genealogy that is certainly your privilege, go buy a book and claim it as yours or download someone else's GEDCOM and merge it on your program, but please, don't proliferate this on the Web. For now, it is a lovely romantic story, but it's just that - a story - until there is proof it isn't fiction.

Thank you, John R Carpenter

Was there a ship owning Devon based surname Carpenter family in the 1600s you are aware of?

Thomas Passmore and his wife, Jane, arrived in Jamestown on the ship 'George,' which made several trips from England to Jamestown. It is not clear which voyage they were on, but it is also recorded that they paid for the passage of their servant, John Buckmaster, on the 'Great Hopewell' in 1623. Thomas was married by 1624 as his wife was mentioned in a court case that year. She was recorded in the 1625 muster as Jane.

From Cavaliers and Pioneers, Abstracts of Virginia Land Grants and Patents, 1623- 1800. Virginia State Library, 1934 p. 3
"THOMAS PASSMORE, carpenter. 12 acr. within the corporation of James City, adj. Mary Holland, August: 14, 1624." [note that capitalization and punctuation are from the original}
Here is a link to the image of the original land grant: https://www.wikitree.com/photo/jpg/Passmore-312

In 1634 Thomas moved to Maryland, which was offering land in exchange for new settlers. He gave up his land in the Jamestown area for a more substantial, well-documented land grant in Maryland. Born 1579, immigrant from Virginia. First recorded in Maryland 1634, last recorded there alive 1649, date of last record 1650.
" 16th April 1642. Thomas Passmore hath entered upon
record a demand of 200 acres of land due by Conditions of
Plantation for transporting two men servants called Thomas
P and Richard W in the year 1634 as he hath affirmed by his
oath." http://aomol.msa.maryland.gov/000001/000073/html/am73--69.html

Another reference for Passmore move: Rchardson, Hester Dorsey, Side-lights on Maryland History, pub. in Baltimore, 1913 - this gives book and page references for land grant; See Archives of Maryland (excerpt above) on line records for additional records.

Here is a link to the transcript of another Maryland document which clearly identities Thomas as a Carpenter by trade, "I Thomas Pasmore of St. Maries hundred Carpenter sendeth greeting..." https://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/0/07/Passmore-312-1.jpg

Thank you, Kathryn.

I copied over the Wikitree profile to Geni.

Thomas Passmore

Erica,

You wrote:
Was there a ship owning Devon based surname Carpenter family in the 1600s you are aware of?

There was a Bradford on Tone, Somerset, England based Carpenter family that in the early 1700s had accounts with shippers and bought shares in ships in Devon. This means they shared the risk of shipping cargo among many sailing ships. When one ship was lost not one person would lose everything. This actually was a standard business practice.

The line once had minor nobility and in time lost or no longer could prove its armorial bearings. It produced some fairly important for the time Presbyterian and Congregational ministers in the 1800s. One sired a young man named Joseph Hatten Carpenter-49485 who after graduating from college worked as a mercantile shipper.
In 1886 he left England for West Australia and after visiting various merchants and ports there he shipped out for San Francisco. He studied the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and was baptized in Salt Lake City, Utah in 1887. There he became a lay minister and married. He later returned to England as a missionary completing his around the world cruise. He was very active in genealogical work. His brother eventually came to live in Utah also.

"These two brothers are the representatives in the United States of the Somerset [p.563] County Carpenters of England, who were yeoman and lived since 1687 at
Bradford-on-Tyne, near Taunton, Sommerset, and were a younger branch of the
Hereford Carpenters, who lived at Dilwyn, Hereford, before 1300 A. D., and
whose ancestor fought in the crusades for the recovery of the Holy Land from
the Saracens and Turks, as their armorial bearings and crest will indicate."

This quote is cited in two different books.

BOOK: Jenson, Andrew. Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia: A
Compilation of Biographical Sketches of Prominent Men and Women in the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 4 vols. A. Jenson History Company
and Deseret News, 1901-36. Vol. 2. Carpenter, Joseph Hatten Page 561.

BOOK: "Highlights in the life of Joseph Hatten Carpenter" by George Alvin Carpenter 1978.Privately published, Provo, UT 178 pages. FHL 2055997 Item 3

I hope this is helpful.

John R. Carpenter

what the heck are you saying? that's not right.

Which part?

Cross referencing posts from another discussion called “The REAL Moytoy”

https://www.geni.com/discussions/183707?msg=1230076&amp;page=2

——

https://www.geni.com/discussions/183707?msg=1230049

Translation: Ancestry upgraded to i4GG and CODIS as bogus filters in effect; well, the computer does the
triangulations and if the segments do not line up, it throws out the bogus-ness. That already happened on Moytoy when his lines were removed from Ancestry.

——-

https://www.geni.com/discussions/183707?msg=1230066

So anyone using Ancestry DNA tools currently should never get a result relating them in any way to a Moytoy?

https://www.geni.com/discussions/183707?msg=1230073

Correct. The links to him are gone.

——-

Thank you, Bellinda Gail Myrick-Barnett

Kathryn - are you any relation to the Perrysville ohio Forbes - Herschel is my grandfather by marriage - no Blood that way - it comes from another line...

No, sorry. Forbes is my husband’s family; they emgrated from Galway, Ireland to Massacusetts in the 1880’s.

Glenn T Chipner, Jr. My Forbes line

John Forbes

Kathryn Forbes Can you check for us to see if there are any real people in this tree?

Oo Yo Sti ‘Polly, the Elder’, {possibly fictional}