Richard Lee of Coton Hall - Inconsistencies

This section of the tree is at present a compromise between pre- and post-Thorndale versions of the ancestors of Col. Richard Lee of Virginia.

William Thorndale was the dude who, in 1988, sank his teeth into a christening record from Worcester, England - probably this one:

(Source: familysearch.org, Records)

Richarde Lyes
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Richarde Lyes
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 14 May 1612
Christening Date (Original): 14 MAY 1612
Christening Place: SAINT JOHN BEDWARDINE,WORCESTER,WORCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name: John Lyes

There is supposedly an image available, if one wants to make tracks to the nearest Family History Library.

This gave him the idea that Col. Richard Lee was not a Coton Hall Lee from Shropshire, but an obscure merchant from Worcester. (He wasn't the first to raise questions, but he was the one who made them stick.)

There turns out to be a joker in researching Coton Hall Lees: they used to have their very own chapel right on the premises, which meant they could do their christenings, weddings and funerals right at home - but the record-keeping was likely to be spotty at best. The chapel had become a "romantic" ruin by about 1760, but was apparently still usable in the earlier 17th century. http://www.familee.net/history/coton_hall.html

Sorting this one out is going to be rather hairy, to say the least.

One of the possible causes of the mess is that the "Smart" Match algorithms were recently loosened to see if that would allow spelling mismatches of unusual names to be caught. Unfortunately the results were...not satisfactory, and they have been re-tightened. But in the interim a lot of crazy mismatches popped up and some naive users accepted them when they shouldn't have. (Anne Constable, for instance, belongs two generations later - she married Col. Richard Lee of Virginia, NOT Richard Lee of Coton Hall.)

I think we can *probably* discount any genealogical records from Shrewsbury, Shropshire - it's 25 miles from Coton Hall over roads that can't have been very good in the 17th century and earlier, and there was a perfectly serviceable church just two miles away (St. Mary's, in Alveley, dating back to c. 1140).

Footnote to the foregoing: there is also a church of St. Mary the Virgin IN Shrewsbury (commonly referred to as Shrewsbury St. Mary), and we'll have to be careful not to confuse records from there with records from St. Mary's at Alveley.

Disconnected time traveling Anne Constable and locked relationships

haha, the Lees get around. I know Ann Constable.

I just cleaned up her children also. It’s all relationship locked now so should stay valid.

Jeff Michael Prusak was not the same person as William Lee of Coton Hall who died without issue.

Tagging the correct Leigh

Capt. William Leigh, of Jamestown

FYI - The image of the 'birth' or Richardus Leyes and father John Leyes reference is from family search user submitted trees - if you go to family search and go to the record Maven mentions there is also a tree symbol to the right - click on to that and the prompt will ask if you wish to view the person or tree - view tree - go to the "Home' Person - guess who's tree it is, mine.

There is no record - this was created by family tree when I submitted the research in regards to locating Col. Richard Lee's parents. The information was taken from the family data collection, there is not an image of a parish record. This May 1812 was information taken off several research notes and various trees, there was and is not a primary source. Family data collection is just that - all the information (data) submitted to FS by site users. In this case I was the source (or my tree).

Family Search is a useful tool but if the main source is family data collections it is not really a source at all. Kind of like Wikipedia. People use it but it is not a primary source, the sources are the people like us who submits the info. Just saying.

From Family Search:

Richarde Lyes
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening:
14 May 1612
SAINT JOHN BEDWARDINE, WORCESTER, WORCESTER, ENGLAND
father:
John Lyes

Click on tree image:

Christening
14 MAY 1612
Saint John Bedwardine,Worcester,Worcester,England
Death
Deceased

1Sources
0Discussions
0Memories

Click on the 1 source:

Date
Title
Attached By

1612
Richarde Lyes, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"
7 November 2014
FamilySearch
View • Edit • Review Attachments • Detach • Report Abuse • Tag 0

This extracted IGI record was used to create this person.
Learn More...
url
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JS1G-PHS

Now view "person' from prompt instead of viewing tree.
Go to the tree's home person.
You will get my profile.

The BEST and ONLY way to get the birth, baptism, marriage, death, and probate records for this time period and England - I found searching the UK archives of the vital records. It was these records that Thorndale cites and cannot be found.

That is what I use.

Good try though. ;)

www.leesofvirginia.org/Col_Richard_Lee.html

On my above link I have links to original UK Parish records and historic documents (including Col Richard Lee's LW&T).

English Parish records have been well preserved for a very long time ... and the records from Aveley Chapel were recovered and removed from Chapel prior to the roof collapse.

Moving the goalposts, I see. Now it has to be an *actual, verified* primary paper document.

Point taken. But then where did Thorndale get *his* information? (Yes there *was* an Internet of sorts - text-based - in 1988. And there were extensive and intensive genealogical discussions on various subgroups of a network called Usenet. It still exists, though not as widely used these days, and at least some of the old discussions have been archived for posterity at Google and elsewhere.)

I have searched all of the UK parish records ... even given a 10 year spans - Thorndale's records were a bust - not one marriage, birth, probate, baptism, nada.

Interestingly enough you may find the burial record for John Leyes of Worchester 1589'ish (memory) interesting. Way before Richard Lee's birth.

And why would Col Richard Lee lie? He was one, if not THE, wealthiest landowners of the Virginia Colonies, he was in a position of prominence, good standing, why would he lie on his "Last Will and Testiment" .... he character all his life was of integrity.

Have to tell you that that page claiming to show "Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy marriage record" is almost completely illegible at that resolution but for the date at the top of the page. I can't even tell whether it is written in Latin (a common habit of pre-1600 parish records) or English. (And even when they *were* written in English, the names were often Latinized out of old habits.)

Wikipedia :) Internet was a concept not a way of retrieval of records. It took a while to hook up the world I suppose.

Was there Internet in 1988?
The first permanent intercontinental Internet link was made between the United States (NSFNET) and Europe (Nordunet) as well as the first Internet-based chat protocol, Internet Relay Chat. The concept of the World Wide Web was first discussed at CERN in 1988.
1988 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_in_1988

The internet timeline folks!

https://www.computerhope.com/history/internet.htm

It was still unimaginable to the public what the internets capabilities would become.
Many of us lived during that time, not everyone is a millennial.

I just went over that will with a fine-tooth comb - from your own transcript, no less - and Col. Richard Lee said not one single word about his ancestry or any connection to Shropshire. He did mention an estate at "Stafford Langton in the County of Essex", but other sources state that he purchased it.

For the record, I have seen very, very few wills that mention ancestors at all, unless they were of a young man with still-living parents. It's just not an important thing on the mind of someone disposing of their assets for the benefit of their heirs.

Don't try to buffalo me about the history of the Internet. I was *USING* it prior to 1988.

Please note that THE INTERNET IS NOT THE SAME THING AS THE WORLD WIDE WEB!

Did you ever hear of ARPANET?

That is appallingly rude to people who would *like* to help sort out the mess that the recent loosening of the matching algorithms created (Customer Service was so shocked at the horrific results that they re-tightened them but I don't think they went quite far enough - I'm still getting Stupid Matches).

But if you want to struggle with it all by your lonesome with no help from ANYONE else - fine.

That was a 'copy and paste' from Wikipedia, BTW.

Got to give CREDIT where the information came from ...

Let me just emphasize this from your Wall Of Text:

In 1983, TCP/IP protocols replaced NCP as the ARPANET's principal protocol, and the ARPANET then became one subnet of the early Internet.[52][53]

Repeat: one subnet of the early Internet. In 1983.

Now can we for crying out loud STFU about technobabble and get back to serious genealogical discussions? Or are you (Jacqueli) still too heavily invested in scoring meaningless "points" over imagined "adversaries"?

Repeat:

I find it DOUBTFUL Thorndale was using the internet as his research.

Most people in the World did not comprehend the internets capabilities.

I was just responding to the posts - and yes they were irrelevant to the issue - this is Geni, what points what score, really. Adversaries? Don't flatter yourself.

Search the UK Parish records, hopefully you all can.

Your can always start here:

Source(s): Marriage record of Richardus Lee and Elizabeth Bendy:

England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription; First name(s) Ric.; Last name Lee; Name note -; Marriage year 1599; Marriage date 21 Oct 1599; Marriage place Alveley; Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth; Spouse's last name Bendy; County Shropshire; Country England; Record set England Marriages 1538-1973; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Marriages; Repository: England, United Kingdom.
Shropshire marriages Transcription; First name(s) Ric; Last name Lee; Marriage year 1599; Marriage date 21 Oct 1599; Marriage place Alveley; Denomination Anglican; Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth; Spouse's last name Bendy; County Shropshire; Register date range 1561-1721; Archive reference P10/A/1/1; Page 37; Register type Composite; Record set Shropshire Marriages; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Marriages; Collections from United Kingdom, England; Repository: DC Thomson Family History.
England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973; Name Ric. Lee; Gender Male; Marriage Date 21 Oct 1599; Marriage Place Alveley,Shropshire,England; Spouse Elizabeth Bendy; FHL Film Number 502909, 506789; Household Members ; Name Age; Elizabeth Bendy ; Ric. Lee; ancestry.com
U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900; Name Richard Lee; Gender Male; Birth Year 1563; Spouse Name Elizabeth Bendy; Spouse Birth Year 1593; Marriage Year 1599; Number Pages 1; Household Members ; Name Age; Elizabeth Bendy ; Richard Lee; Source number: 975.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Number of Pages: 1; Submitter Code: DPS.

Source(s): Baptismal Record(s):

Note: listing Richard (Richardus) as father and present:

Richardus Lee; Present at baptism of Richard Lee:; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England; (source image attached)
Richard (Richardus) Lee listed as present (Father) at baptism of Col. Richard Lee; County Shropshire Register type Composite Register date range 1616-1638 Archive reference P253/A/1/1 Page 2 Record set Shropshire Baptisms Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers) Subcategory Parish Baptisms Collections from United Kingdom, England Note:source image attached - Primary Source:; First name(s) Richard; Last name Lee; Birth year -; Baptism year 1617; Baptism date 15 May 1617; Denomination Anglican; Place Shrewsbury, St Chad's; Father's first name(s) Richard; Mother's first name(s) -; Mother's last name -; Residence -; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England

Source(s): Baptismal Record(s):

Note: listing Richard (Richardus) as father and present:

Richardus Lee; Present at baptism of Richard Lee:; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England; (source image attached)
Richard (Richardus) Lee listed as present (Father) at baptism of Col. Richard Lee; County Shropshire Register type Composite Register date range 1616-1638 Archive reference P253/A/1/1 Page 2 Record set Shropshire Baptisms Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers) Subcategory Parish Baptisms Collections from United Kingdom, England Note:source image attached - Primary Source:; First name(s) Richard; Last name Lee; Birth year -; Baptism year 1617; Baptism date 15 May 1617; Denomination Anglican; Place Shrewsbury, St Chad's; Father's first name(s) Richard; Mother's first name(s) -; Mother's last name -; Residence -; County Shropshire; Register type Composite; Register date range 1616-1638; Archive reference P253/A/1/1; Page 2; Record set Shropshire Baptisms; Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers); Subcategory Parish Baptisms; Collections from United Kingdom, England

If you don't have "adversaries", why are you being so hostile?

Rudeness is a hostile tactic.

Wall Of Text is a hostile tactic.

Moving the goalposts is a hostile tactic.

I don't think you really *want* anyone else's help, but would rather run them off and keep the Col. Richard Lee lineage as your own private playground. You are certainly "communicating" as though that is your goal.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4242160?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

Journal Article
A New Clue to the Lee Ancestry

The Virginia Magazine of History and Biography
Vol. 6, No. 3 (Jan., 1899), pp. 255-260 (6 pages)
Published by: Virginia Historical Society

And you may need this:

https://archive.org/details/leeofvirginia16400inleee/page/n5