Joseph Goldschmidt-Hameln - Who is the father of of Josseph (Jobst )Goldschmidt (1597-1677) of Stadthagen and Hameln?

Here are the two other profiles at issue, so we can work on putting them in order, in the proper location with the correct children.

Samuel (Shmuel Stuckert) Goldschmidt

Benedict (Moshe Baruch ben Moshe Yuda Segal) Goldschmidt

In Yiddish an Uncle is commonly refered to as Fetter (an Aunt as Tante).

Regarding the names of Benedict and his uncle Samuel Goldschmidt:

In the profile of "Benedict-Baruch Daniel Samuel Goldschmidt-Stuckert (Goldschmidt)" the holy name of Benedict "Baruch Daniel Samuel" should be replaced with "Moshe Baruch ben Moshe Yehuda Segal".

The holy name (shem kodesh) of Benedict was Moshe Baruch, not Baruch Daniel Samuel, which was the holy name of his uncle Samuel Goldschmidt.

Benedict does not appear in any source with the Yiddish surname Stuckert. (This is a very surprising surname, because Jews were expelled from Stuttgart in 1498! Yet Samuel is the first Goldschmidt to use this name. In 1598 a few Jews were allowed to return for three months. Perhaps, Shmuel Stuckert was one of these Jews.)

Please add the document sources (images) to the profile also.

The document sources have been added to the text in parentheses. Using these document sources, should be able to locate them in the archives. I do not have any images. I would like to upload more images of tombstones. I have written to a few institutions in Germany and have received permission to upload images of tombstones in Hamburg and Bonn, for example.

There is one other issue I would like to raise and that is the names heading the profiles. As you probably already know, German Jews could have as many as three different names: a holy name in Hebrew; a vernacular name in Yiddish; and a civil name in German. Thus the name "Joseph Goldschmidt-Hameln" is made up of two names: Jobst or Jost Goldschmidt in German and Joseph Hamel(n) in Yiddish. Is there any convention on Geni to deal with this?

I have evaded the problem so far, by putting the German name in the header of the profile, and add the Hebrew and Yiddish names in Hebrew characters. Unfortunately, not all the descendants know Hebrew. Therefore< I have used a different solution for his father: Samuel (Shmuel Stuckert) Goldschmidt. This may not be ideal either, but it may prevent people from searching in the German sources for someone with the hyphenated family name Stuckert-Goldschmidt. Any other solutions?

Is there any reasonable possibility that "Vetter" could simply be a mistranscription of "Vatter", older speller of "Vater" = Father?

I believe this to be unlikely. If you are familiar with seventeenth-century documents, then you will notice that it is difficult to mistake a double t for a single one. Perhaps you confuse an 'e' with an 'a', but not a 't' and 'tt'.. In any case, I didn't read the original document, but a trained historian, Dr. Rüdiger Kröger. He has edited letters written by Jobst Goldschmidt (Joseph Hamel). See Rüdiger Kröger, “Deutschsprachige Literalität in Familie un Umfeld von Jobst Goldschmidt alias Josef Hameln,” pp 119-137 in Birgit E. Klein and Rotraud Ries (eds.), Selbstzeugnisse und Ego-Dokumente frühneuzeitlicher Juden in Aschkenas: Beispiel, Methoden und Konzepte (Metropol, 2011).

Benedict is unlikely to have been the father of Jobst. First there is the age difference. Samuel's oldest son, Jobst, was born in 1597. We now know that Benedict married Rosina Wallich in ca. 1608, suggesting that he was born in the early 1590s. Thus Benedict is more likely to belong to the same generation as Jobst. Second, on his tombstone, the father of Jobst is not called Baruch, but Baruch Daniel Samuel. These are two different names. In most cases the last name -Shmuel- is the one given at the circumcision ceremony. This is confirmed by his name in German documents: Samuel or Schmull. Thus, the other names -Baruch and Daniel- were added later at a name-changing ritual, when Samuel was critically ill. And third, on his tombstone Benedict is called Moshe Baruch and not Baruch Daniel Shmuel. Again, the name Moshe was added at a name-changing ritual. Orthodox Jews still perform this ritual. However, today, the most common name added is Chaim. For example, the name of my father-in-law was changed from Yaakov to Chaim Yaakov.

Does this settle the issue?

Definitely settles it in my eyes. Thank you for the explanation.

Just wanted to point out a twist to the name changing custom that is not well known. You are correct that Orthodox practice is to add a name to a person who is critically ill. Currently the name Chaim (meaning life) or Chaya is added or sometimes something with similar sentiments. But in the time and place in our discussion the custom was to open a Bible at a random page and give the first appropriate name found on that page. Sometimes abandoning the original name all together.

In addition the custom is that if he/she survives the new name is used, but if he/she dies from the illness the new name is dropped.

The reason for name change is שינוי שם שינוי מזל - that

Today Nancy High sent me a copy of a document from 1601, in which father in Middle High German is spelled with a double 't'! So Christopher was right about the spelling of father. Please disregard the first part of my reply to him! The first part of my argument now runs as follows: Let's assume for a minute that Dr. Rüdiger Kröger made a mistake and read 'Vetter' instead of 'Vatter'. However, Vatter cannot be correct, because Benedict referred to "meinem Vettern Jost Goldtschmidten", or "my Vetter Jost Goldschmidt". Rabbi Duckesz argued that Benedict was the father of Jobst and not that Jobst was the father of Benedict! Therefore the correct reading must be Vetter and not Vatter.

My source for the name changing custom is Benzion C. Kaganoff, A Dictionary of Jewish Names and their History (New York: Schocken Books, 1977), p. 102. Does anyone know the source in the rabbinical/halachic literature?

I have corrected the profile of the paternal grandfather of Jobst. Please read the Overview for the evidence. If you think that the evidence is not strong enough, please let me know.

I have also corrected the profiles of his great-grandfather and gg-grandfather.

I am very happy to defer to your expertise on this branch.

Job: great effort looking further into the (now settled) Vetter/Vatter dichotomy; it's nice to have things as set in stone as they can be!

The new profiles look splendid. Really nice job altogether with this branch, I love your attention to detail.

@Randy do you want to take over my curatorship of the profiles involved here? Feel free - I haven't had much time to devote to Geni in the last several months, and that is likely to continue.

In response to Job Jona

The custom of changing of a name for the deathly ill is first mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud Tractate Rosh Hashana 16b - changing of a name changes the Divine decision of this person to die. The Talmud quotes as a basis for this idea the name changing of the biblical Sarai to Sarah which enabled her have a child. The logic being that God does not wish Sarai to have a child, but Sarah can, as she is now a different person (of sorts).

Name changing for the ill is enshrined in the glossed on the (Shulchan Aruch) Code of Jewish Law by Rabbi Moses Isserlis c.1530-1572 Yorah Deyah 366:10 "...the custom is to bless the ill in the Synagogue and to give them a new name, because a change of name annuls the (negative) sentence".

Rabbi Yerucham c.1280-c.1350 (vol 1 p. 231c) mentions the order of service for name changing which is held in the presence of 10 male adults, and includes opening the ark holding of a Torah scroll, saying a prayer - the text of which is mentioned, announcing the new name and blowing of the shofar.

Rabbi Israel Isserlin c.1390-1460 adds that a totally different name should be used with no similar letters included in the new name and
he requires the new name to be mentioned in a mi sheberach prayer three times.

The Minhagbuch (Book of Customs) of Worms by Rav Jousep Schammes 1604-1678 (vol. 2 no. 247 pp. 87-89) adds the lighting of a candle and clearly writes that a totally new name is given by opening a Bible and using the first appropriate name on that page.

The same process is described in The Minhagim of Khal Adath Jeshurun NY of 1988 p.3-4 "...the shamash (sexton) carries a lit candle while collecting charity... the prayer for the sick is said...in front of the open Holy Ark... the name changing is made by the Rabbi by opening a Chumash (five books of Moses) or a Tanach (Old Testament) at random and looking at the first name which presents itself".

I have added images of the tombstones of Benedict and his son Abraham in Bettenhausen. I have also added profiles for the brothers of Benedict: Mosche in Witzenhausen and Abraham in Fulda. Does anyone know anything about their descendants?

Yesterday we identified another son of Benedict Goldschmidt: the convert Moses. I have added a profile for him, but the Overview is still very short. The records tell a lot about him and using these data a historian wrote an article devoted to him. However, the author did not know his parents. Now we do!