Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria - Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria

Jason Scott Wills At this point I have seen multiple new profiles made in the last 2 days to go around the Master Profiles for Tsar Samuel and Ripsimia. That causes far more chaos than just re-connecting the line of Samuel-Ripsimia-Ashot II.

There are far more historical citations for this line than for many other tenuous family connections elsewhere on Geni.

Can it please be re-established and we can all go back and research, explore, and learn more about our past. This is a learning process but also a human experience, and honestly for me personally, this connection is a link to the ancient past, including my personal hero Marcus Aurelius.

We all have a hero. My hero is Ashot II the Iron of Armenia.
His cross still exists today ;)

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/681028

Nikolaus Jan Triplett Groenewold The connection between Ripsimia and Ashot was severed in 2014 by curator George Homs, so there has been no chaos for 6 years until now when this thread was started.

Private User I didn't make the cut, I have been asking genuinly what is the evidence.

Wonderful, it's always great to see the physical relics of the past. Thanks for sharing Arsi Saarijärvi.

Jason Scott Wills i understand that, but you are the current curator. I appreciate your following this thread and having an open mind. But from what I have read in the citations, it seems the preponderance of evidence says Ripsimia is daughter of Ashot II. Until there is proof she isn't, or someone finds evidence of another woman that is Tsar Samuel's mother, the connection should be made.

you claim the preponderance of evidence says Ripsimia is daughter of Ashot II so we have

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashot_II_of_Armenia

says his father was Smbat I
Mother unknown
says his wife was Marie daughter of Sahak
"Ashot died without any sons or heirs and his daughter was married to the Duke of Sofia Nicholas and mothered Tsar Samuel of Bulgaria."

so his wiki claims a daughter, where does this info come from though

next

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_(komes) her supposed husband

"He was married to Ripsime or Hripsime, possibly a daughter of King Ashot II of Armenia."

note possibly.

"Inscription in the National Historical Museum of Bulgaria citing Nicholas and Ripsime as grandparents of Ivan Vladislav, the son of Aron."

Ripsimia is Ivan's grandmother no origins mentioned.

Medlands doesn't mention a daughter

b) ASHOT Bagratuni (-[928]). The De Administrando Imperio of Konstantinos Porphyrogenetos names "Asotium…et Apasacium" as the two sons of "Symbatii…principum principis"[61]. The Histoire of Jean VI Catholicos records that "le chef des eunuques…[de] Afschin" took "Aschod le fils du roi" and "la femme de Mouschegh, frère d´Aschod", who had been captured "dans la forteresse de Kars", and returned them to King Smbat[62]. Kirakos Ganjaketsi's History of Armenia records that "his son Ashot" succeeded after the death of "Smbat Bagratuni" and ruled "at the order of Emperor Romanus for eight years"[63]. Defeated by Yusuf ostikan of Azerbaijan, he was crowned in 914 as ASHOT II King of Armenia by Adarnase II King of Iberia. The Histoire of Jean VI Catholicos records that "Aschod fils de Sempad" was made king "par le roi des Ibériens"[64]. After visiting Constantinople, he returned to Armenia with Byzantine forces to fight ostikan Yusuf and his cousin Ashot, whom Yusuf had installed as anti-king of Armenia[65]. After Yusuf's fall and recall to Baghdad in 919, King Ashot was granted the title Shahanshah [King of Kings]. m ([917]) MARIE of Kachen, daughter of SAHAK Sevata & his wife ---. The Histoire of Jean VI Catholicos records that "le roi Aschod, fils de roi" married "la fille du grand ischkhan Isaac [Sahak] surnommé Sévata", dated to [917] from the context[66].

Thanks for fixing this. All is well with the ancestors. I will sleep well tonight.

https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=76978074750

Prior to the merge, both Ripsimes had as their father Ashot II "the Iron". So it is the loss of that kinship connection that has ruined the line from Blanche of Artois (and son, Henry of Lancaster) to King David.

Henry Plantagenet, 3rd Earl of Leicester and Lancaster

So it destroyed the Plantagenet descent from King David.

What do we know ?

What do we know about Armenian kingdom ?

1) Ashot II did not have a son whom to ecpected to follow as a king.

2) Histories are written usually on this aspect that who is the king and who are his sons, cause It is always a male that continues the kingdom in ancient times. Same has been in Europe too. If king did have daughters but not a son, the kingdom moved to a closest male on the bloodline.

What do we know about Ashot II ?

1) Ashot II was a direct descendent of the eastern Roman empire.

2) He was Christian and he visited Byzantium.

3) He lived the exactly the same time as Ripsimia.

What do we know about Ripsimia ?

1) She is saed to be Armenian also a Rhipsime of Bagratuni.

2) She is saed to be mother of a Tsar Samuil.

3) She lived exactly the same time as Ashot II.

4) Answer to this paradigm. Why would any women especially be mentioned as Armenian when concerning a Tsar's mother If she was not an important person ?

We may think that Armenian history never wrote about Ripsimia the Armenian because she no longer was part of the Kingdom Bagratuni. The name though is like Rhipsime, Smbat I's mother. We can only find Ripsime in Bulgarian texts, since she is part of the continuous kingdom. If Bulgarian text clearly says the origin of Tsar Samuil's mother we can be sure that she is the princess of Armenian King. No else would been married and been written about, also there is the connection of Byzantium Empire where Ashot II visited and the Christendom.

Thank you for listening to us! I am so happy that at least one of these lines is restored. I really appreciate it. I felt ignored for weeks, this makes me feel so much better. I still feel bad about Eudodkia, but at least through this experience I was able to discover a new tree.

Just kidding - I had my ancient lineages back last night through this new pathway. And when I woke up this morning, they were gone again. So, who was removed in her place now?? At least I had a few hours of relief, and it's back to disappointment. Happy I took a few screenshots of the new line before it was wiped away. I guess it's time for me to start rebuilding my own trees on this platform.

It's Ripsimia again - Why were her parents deleted again?? I'm so confused.

I see what happened. Arsi Saarijärvi was kind enough to add Ripsimia back into the profile, and Jason Scott Wills took her out again, and then locked the profile so that no one else can make changes to the profile. I thought for a second that a curator actually cared about the members of this site - guess I was mistaken.

Elisha Kayne i guess you dont care about whether your lineage is true or not just whether it goes back to adam and eve. guess you want geni to be a joke genealogy site. I'm engaging with this discussion to find the facts whether this connection has merit. please stop being dramatic

Jason Scott Wills Look, my religious beliefs are non of your business. Just because you think the people in the bible aren't real - doesn't give you the right to delete people from family trees. At least you are finally admitting your bias here. The books that were written by the people of Judea are a historical record of the events that shaped the Hebrew nations. They have just as much relevance as any other document written in ancient history. People may disagree about whether the stories within the bible are embelished, but archeology has unearthed a plethora of evidence to suggest that the people in the story are real.

It isn't just "King David" that I am concerned with. You have destroyed my link to Cyrus the Great, Zenobia, Ptolemy Soter, Mark Antony, Mariamne I, and thousands more. These are historical figures, proven to have existed. Or do you think they were all made up?

If you are taking action, chopping down people's trees, because of a religious bias, then I think you should be let someone else curate the pages of these important ancient profiles.

of course they existed but you need the connected points between now and then to be correct. why is that hard to understand

You are deliberately severing people's ties to the ancient world - and so are other curators. I have read multiple discussions where you guys talk openly about the need to delete any profiles that connect to King David and other biblical figures. What you don't realize, is that in doing so you are erasing all of the historical connections. You guys are letting your personal beliefs and opinions cloud your judgement. I am not the irrational one here, you are. The current Queen of England bases her right to the throne on the same lineages you are deleting left and right. Don't patronize me.

We have connected the points. You just keep erasing the points because you have a personal agenda.

Also, I saved the majority of my ancient lineages before they were ruined. And I saved one last night through Ripsimia to Mariamne I (and I'm kicking myself for not taking screenshots of all of them when I had the opportunity). If you are related to the ancient profiles through Ripsimia, the House of Stuart, the Plantagenets or the House of Anjou, I would be happy to send you my information so you can rebuild your personal geneologies. Just send me a message.

https://www.degruyter.com/view/db/pmbz interesting site

There are several texts where Ripsimia is said to be Ashots daughter. There are many books with different languages. I would like to see source and text where that connection is questioned? Can we have the text where it says that actually Hripsime Bagratuni is not a daughter of Ashot II.

Jason Scott Wills

sources showing that Hripsime is Ashot II's daughter are here:

Cyril Tumanoff, Manuel de Généalogie et de Chronologie pour l'Histoire de la Caucasie Chrétienne (Arménie-Géorgie-Albanie)
Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia
René Grousset, Histoire de l'Arménie
Continuité des élites à Byzance durant les siècles obscurs
Suny, Ronald Grigor (1994), The Making of the Georgian Nation: 2nd edition, p. 27. Indiana University Press, ISBN 0-253-20915-3
Rapp, Stephen H. (2003), Studies In Medieval Georgian Historiography: Early Texts And Eurasian Contexts, p. 383. Peeters Bvba ISBN 90-429-1318-5.

Thank you Private User I appreciate you lending your help to this. I had a list of citations going as a response to Jason. But yours is more thorough. Much appreciated.

Private User I agree with you. Do please list the sources and text showing where Ripsimia's connection is questioned.

Thank you, Saga Rewell, for providing these sources. We'll see where it goes.

Wow! I hadn't checked on King David recently - but after reading Comments above, have now found that instead of being a great-grandfather, he is: "King David of Israel is your 31st great aunt's husband's third cousin 24 times removed's partner's father." - This is terrible!

- I'm okay with Samuel, Tsar of Bulgaria and I'm okay with Ripsima, both as noted at top of the page. (one spelling for Ripsima)...

- though another spelling (linked to Ashot below] is: Rhipsime is your 20th great grandfather's wife's second great aunt's ex-husband's great aunt's husband's great grandmother. Hripsime

Here's another loss of a great-grandfather: Ashot II the Iron, king of Armenia is your 20th great grandfather's wife's second great aunt's ex-husband's great aunt's husband's great uncle. Ashot II the Iron, king of Armenia

Another loss of a great-grandfather for me is: Prince Smbat VII of Armenia is your 15th cousin 28 times removed. Prince Smbat VII of Armenia

How does one recover from these losses? Is there any plan on the table about these things?

Hi nancy. If you read this article on jewishgen https://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/descent.htm you will see no one, not even jews can trace a lineage to king david

What does this have to do with arbitrarily and senselessly cutting the relationship between a father and his daughter?

I reconnected her to Ashot. I'm not wasting any more energy on this.

Jason Scott Wills
Thank You!