Charlemagne - 35th Great Grandfather?

Started by Lee Orr on Monday, September 14, 2020
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So if Charlemagne's remains are exhumed and Mitochondrial DNA is collected and you can match with that sample, would you then agree that you are a descendant of Charlemagne?

Forensic geneaology has been adding samples to the Geni database. Probably a hit and a miss but worth checking by clicking the profile DNA tab and then clicking the hyperlinks for the Autosomal, Mitochondrial and Y Chromosome relatives and just see if they have put any samples there. I have found a few. Just like in the case of the Czar of Russia and his daughter Anastasia. They had several close family relatives Autosomal and Michondrial DNA Available to perform a match. Good to know stuff for somebody.

"So if Charlemagne's remains are exhumed and Mitochondrial DNA is collected and you can match with that sample, would you then agree that you are a descendant of Charlemagne?"

If it is an exact match, with zero genetic distance, yes. mtDNA, of all the types, is the best for matching with deep ancestry.

However, as we all know, his matching mtDNA must be inherited from one of his sisters and the line of descent has to be maternal all the way down.

But my own mtDNA haplotype is so rare that aside from immediate family I haven't found any exact matches. All of my known "matches" include genetic distances due to marker variations.

I would be overjoyed to find any ancient sample(s), male or female, whose mtDNA matches exactly with mine. But if ancient DNA matches existed (on paper at least), Geni's software program should theoretically notify us about it.

I don't know that any ancient DNA results have actually been uploaded to this site, but I guess not, otherwise we would find discussions on the topic. In any case, it shouldn't be necessary to hunt for them.

Is there a Project that is strictly limited to ancient DNA Geni uploads?

'So if Charlemagne's remains are exhumed and Mitochondrial DNA is collected and you can match with that sample, would you then agree that you are a descendant of Charlemagne?'

No, I would not hold that as evidence of being a descendant of Charlemagne. He was a male and therefore did not pass on mtDNA to anyone. Besides, mtDNA changes so slowly that the relationship could be to his mother or several generations back in time.

I do have ancestry from the Netherlands, Denmark and Germany, possibly also from Belgium and France so a connection to Charlemagne can not be excluded, but it does not have to be as direct descendant. I can not deny the possibility.
Overall, the 'everyone in Europe is descending from Charlemagne´ is a huge exaggeration. Western half, perhaps, but not everyone of them either. All of Europe is a much larger area.

Several of Charlemagne's children did not have any known children or grandchildren. The amount of legitimate offspring is much smaller than rumoured.

what you want is Autosomal DNA. combined with the MTDNA and YDNA then if there's a good match, the proof is there.

Charlemagne is My 32 Ggf

No, autosomal DNA can not be used to proove any relation to a individual that far back. You inherit autosomal DNA from all your second great grandparents but only 1-5% and further back you only inherit from a few of your ancestors making it increasingly impossible for every generation to proove which ancestor you inherit that DNA from. mtDNA is not that usable either at pinpointing one ancestor, though you can at least proove you share the same maternal haplogroup. The only usable for such a research is a high level Y-DNA test at Familytreedna. But as far as I know his Y-DNA and mtDNA from his remains hasnt been analyzed yet.

With all the replies to this discussion I wouldn’t be surprised if everyone had this guy in their family. I don’t know how I got into this discussion, but that’s my two cents.

Well, Big Charlie *did* tomcat around a lot (as many of those early kings did, and some later ones, e.g. Charles II of England), so we'll probably never know just how many little Charlies were left in his wake. :-D

Hahaha Maven so true!

@Charlemagne-35th Great Grandfather

From time to time Geni has gathered the DNA from exhumed ancient bodies and Mitochondrial DNA and YDNA is listed under those DNA tabs. So when you are matching with very old ancestors you will need to do several matches.

Geni knows and has created the paper trail for you but you gotta line the DNAs up so you can get down to an Autosomal match and can tell any skeptic (rightfully so a skeptic) tell them how you know that you are an Autosomal Match.

I'am gonna go back to Charlemagne and see who was exhumed and was listed under his Autosomal or Mitochondrial matches. Then see who is close Family listed under his Autosomal Mitochondrial or YDNA matches and keep coming down until I get down to a recent Relative. If I cannot bring it all the way back down I will let you know.

Be back soon.


@Charlemagne - 35th Great Grandfather

I matched to Charlemagne my 34th ggf. I checked the DNA tab and all three hyper links and found nobody listed to match to. Next I Started to check the Monarchs in the dynasties one by one. Skipping around. I found one for example:

Philipp von Schwaben/Von Hohenstaufen First King of Germany to be Assassinated. year 1177 My 25th GGF

There are 3 living Y-Chromosome living Family members confirmed by Geni attached to the profile who are descendants and additional 5 more listed under the hyperlink. There are no Autosomal or Mitochondrial relatives listed so I could not match but I will ask my cousin if he will match. Donald or Will or there are many who have Y tested.


Napoleon III President & Emperor of France is my 19th cousin 4x Removed. (Blood Rel)

Living Close Family Member with Mitochondrial DNA under the hyperlink is Giuseppe Caracciolo born 9/19/1841. He is my 19th cousin 1x removed. (Blood rel.)

And you can go on and on. Always check under the DNA tab and under the hyperlinks. Geni knows what is needed to verify and if it has it you will see it under the tabs. (don't click on the grayed out people, they are not opted in) Have fun

@Charlemagne - 35th Great Grandfather

OOOops Typo... Giuseppe Caracciolo birthiday is 9/18/1941 not 1841. --Vanessa

Vanessa Brooks DP713053C1

Thanks for your research.
Can you explain how i can see the hyperlink you talk about ?

Good afternoon to you
Take care

Vanessa Brooks DP713053C1 in your post you said:

From time to time Geni has gathered the DNA ...
Geni knows and has created the paper trail ...

This is not an accurate depiction of how Geni works, Geni is a software platform. All data on the platform is provided by users, Geni does not endorse nor even check the data that users enter. Geni is a collaborative website where all of us users enter the data, some more accurately than others, and the result is a giant database of uncertain accuracy which we are all free to wander around to our hearts content.

Alex Moes. You say "wander around" as to imply what? I am going to agree to disagree with you. I appreciate your comment. First let me say, Geni is a hobby for me. Not my life adventure. Does not define me. I do suggest that Geni provide a Webinar or a YouTube Seminar on how DNA Matching works on this platform, and explain The Autosomal/Mitochondrial and Y-Chromosome DNA Test Tool found under the profile tabs and hyperlinks. Explain the Family Finder matching at the DNA tabs. Explain where the list of Close Family Autosomal/Mitochondrial and Y-Chromosome DNA matches comes from. Geni is a Super software platform that takes every precaution to provide the highest level of accuracy of DNA data from her platform to the World Tree. That is my scope of Geni. I totally Respect the Geni.

I am L1c2b1 RM875291C1 <Typ O>

I am the descendant of many. I am searching for every cousin. Close and Far. That is the signature of an Alpha. I don't wander. I search.

@Charlemagne-35th Great Grandfather
Debra Denman. Oooh you bring up a great point. I am speaking from clicking on the hyperlinks every time I match and I notice that some of those very old profiles will have active matches listed under the hyperlinks. If you find a active person on the list you can click and compare your DNA. Now this has led me to repeat the process for that profile. I look for the hyperlink for that one and see if there is an active person on the list for that person and test my DNA again. Eventually it took me to a living relative. I am starting to find many of the old old profiles will only have a list under the Y-Chromosome DNA hyperlink. Sometimes it varies. But start checking. Or go back to some of the Kings and Queens you did prior and take a look and see if there was a list under the hyperlink.

LOL I am hoping Geni staff will pass my request forward for a Webinar or YouTube video on how Geni propagates DNA of close family members to these profiles.

I have found myself on several lists. When my In-law Relationship says like 2nd cousin 2x removed I look for <WILLIAMS > second cousin 2x removed

I also start seeing other surnames on the list that are in my tree. *I wish Geni would explain why my DNA Family Finder always says PRIVATE or does the profile manager have to designate who on the list to "invite". I really want to know this.

Julia Victoria Bauer. THAT'S IT. She brought up a great point. Confirm a positive match with all three tests (if you can)

While it's fun to do just an initial match and take a peek under the DNA tab and under the hyper links and see if there are any DNA of others propagated to the profile that you can test further. Now I Know everybody does not have results of all 3 tests but some of us do have at least 2.

If you have all 3 tests then match with the Y-Chromosome DNA first if there are matches available.

Then match with the Mitochondrial DNA matches

Then match with an Autosomal DNA matches.

If you get a positive Blood Relationship match with all three of those tests they can set you a plate at the dinner table. You are undeniably family. If anybody has all 3 tests and can get a positive Blood relationship from one of these old DNA profiles PLEASE PLEASE let us know. This will be awesome.

I don't have Y-Chromosome DNA attached to my profile so I cannot do it but I plan to get my brothers son to give me a cheek swab when I go up for my birthday in two weeks. I have not been able to get forensic DNA to propagate my deceased brother's DNA to my profile so I will get it the next best way. It will take about 12 weeks to get the results but I'm going all out for a Y-700. That's gonna break my piggy bank but well worth it.

I'd be interested to see what everyone in this thread finds out when checking to see your connection through Geni to Charlemagne. Here's mine: Charlemagne is your 37th great grandfather's wife's great grandfather.

Charlemagne is your 35th great grandfather.
→ Juan Iges Blom
your father → Carmen Cristina Madsen
his mother → Ana Hilda Madsen
her mother → Lars Mathiasen
her father → Mathias Larsen
his father → Sophie Margrete Mathiasdatter
his mother → Karen Jensdatter
her mother → Kirstine Margrete Christiansdatter
her mother → Christian Jeppesen Bruun
her father → Karen Nielsdatter Bruun
his mother → Niels Frandsen Bruun, Sognepræst
her father → Johanne Andersdatter Grøn
his mother → Anders Eriksen Grøn, til Tamdrup Bisgaard
her father → Erik Jensen Grøn
his father → Maren Grøn, af Voergaard
his mother → Anders Joahimsen Bjørn, af Voergaard
her father → Margrethe Tagesdatter Reventlow, af Fyn
his mother → Tage Henriksen Reventlow
her father → Ingegerd Johansdotter (Folkungaättens oäkta gren), Bjälboättens oäkta gren
his mother → Johan Magnusson (Bjälboättens oäkta gren)
her father → Magnus Gregersson (Bjälboättens oäkta gren)
his father → Gregers Birgersson (Bjälboättens oäkta gren)
his father → Birger jarl
his father → Magnus Bengtsson Minnesköld (Folkungaätten)
his father → Jarl Bengt Folkesson Snivel
his father → Prinsessa Ingegard of Denmark
his mother → Adela de Flandre
her mother → Robert I, Count of Flanders
her father → Baldwin V, count of Flanders
his father → Baldwin IV the Bearded, count of Flanders
his father → Rozala of Italy
his mother → Berengar II of Ivrea, king of Italy
her father → Gisela of Friuli
his mother → Berengar I, emperor of the Romans
her father → Giséle of Cysoing
his mother → Louis I, The Pious
her father → Charlemagne
his father

Geni Explains how you're connected, I'm also a very distant granddaughter of Charlemagne as well. The reason for that, is because he couldn't keep to one partner.

@Kiti Westerback
My 33rd Ggf

Have you visited Aachen and his museum and the church in which he was buried? The museum is very interesting

34th ggf, not 35th...

→ Patricia Ann Doyle your mother
→ Anna Gertrude Post her mother
→ Frederick Augustus Post her father
→ Emulus Edwin Post his father
→ Oliver Post, Jr his father
→ Oliver Post his father
→ Mary Post his mother
→ Philip Chase her father
→ Lydia Chase his mother
→ Mary Challis (Sargent) her mother
→ William Sargent, I her father
→ Richard Sargent his father
→ Margaret Sargent his mother
→ Agnes Anne Gifford her mother
→ Elizabeth Master her mother
→ Stephen Guillame Payne her father
→ Sir John Payne his father
→ Lord John Payne I his father
→ Joan de Tyas his mother
→ Alice le Tyas her mother
→ Sarah Thornhill Tankersley her mother
→ John de Thornhill her father
→ Alice de Quincy his mother
→ Matilda de Senlis her mother
→ Matilda of Huntingdon, Countess of Huntingdon & Queen consort of Scotland her mother
→ Judith de Lens, Countess of Huntingdon her mother
→ Lambert II, count of Lens her father
→ Mathilde of Boulogne his mother
→ Lambert I, count of Louvain her father
→ Régnier (Reginar) III, comte de Hainaut his father
→ Reginar II, count of Hainaut his father
→ Reginar I "Longneck", Duke of Lorraine and Count of Hainault his father
→ Princess Ermengarde de Lorraine his mother
→ Emperor Lothair I her father
→ Louis I, The Pious his father
→ Charlemagne his father

[Alice de Quincy was also the mother of William de Huntingfield, Lord of East Brandenham, Magna Carta Surety.]

Charlemagne is your 38th great grandfather.

Charlemagne 742-814 32nd Great Grandfather

Charlemagne is your 37th great grandfather.

Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson is your 13th cousin 30 times removed.


Ahmed why not ?

Iba Antonica van Timor SM/PROG is your 8th great grandmother. My 8th grt grandmother from Timor .

Amsoeboe van Timor, SV/PROG MP
Gender: Male
Birth: circa 1640
Pekanbaru City, Riau, Indonesia

my 9th grt grandfather

Amsoeboe 'Paay Moor' van Timor, SV/PROG

even have atDNA proof .

wow :))

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