But Probably fine to show:

Fulcois (parents disputed) x Melsende (parents disputed)

• Geoffrey x Helvise
• Hugues

Terry Jackson (Switzer) you have lots of knowledge here too. Your thoughts?

Having mulled it over for a while i suspect that Cawley has not invested much time into this family. He is after all not omniscient.

Probably - but still I'm finding no sources anywhere else where he says there are none either

I think the only way to clear the tangle of options on the geni tree is to reflect only the relationships that are sourced.

eg eg Gerberge de Gatinais as the wife of Herve I is completed unsupported anywhere

Gerberge de Gatinais
Gender: Female
Birth: circa 915
France
Death: 977 (57-66)
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Gaucelin
Wife of Hervé I, count of Mortagne
Mother of Hervé II, count of Mortagne and Hildegarde de Mortagne du Perche
Added by: Justin Swanstrom on 11 May 2009
Managed by: Alex Moes

This Gerberge Gerberge du Gâtinais, comtesse d'Anjou is the only one I can find so far with any sources connected to Gatinais, and she's married to Fulk II, Count of Anjou

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herv%C3%A9_Ier_de_Mortagne French Wikipedia says this:

At the origin of this family, there is a Hildegarde (v.935 † v.1020), sister of a Gerberge, married to Gilduin de Saumur, mother of one Hervé and grandmother of two Geoffroys. Chronologically, Hildegarde and Gerberge are probably two daughters of Count Hervé.

but cites zero sources for these proposed facts

English Wikipedia says of Herve I: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herv%C3%A9_I,_Count_of_Perche

Hervé I (died after 25 June 955), Count of Perche and Mortagne.

Hervé appears several times between 941 and 946 in the entourage of Hugh the Great and is likely Hervei Comiti Mauritianae cited in a transaction dated June 24, 955.

According to Hervé I of Mortagne, sourced by the work of Settipani, Hervé was either the son or son-in-law of Hugh I, Count of Maine.

Hervé married Melisende (possibly a daughter of Hugh I). They had a number of children:

Hervé II, Count of Mortagne-du-Perche Gerberge du Perche, married Gelduin, Seigneur de Saumur Hildegarde of Perche, married Hugh I, Viscount of Châteaudun. Hervé I was succeeded either by his son Hervé II or Fulcois, the husband of his granddaughter Melissende.

Sources

• Settipani, Christian, Les vicomtes de Châteaudun et leurs alliés, dans Onomastique et Parenté dans l'Occident médiéval, Oxford, Linacre, Unit for Prosopographical Research, 2000
• Europäische Stammtafeln, Vol. III, Les Vicomtes de Châteaudun
• Medieval Lands Project, Perche, Mortagne [ This is the Medlands link we have already that tells us there are no sources for this marriage]

Maybe a timeline of the title succession might help?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords,_counts_and_dukes_of_Perche

The lords of Perche were originally titled lords of Mortagne-au-Perche, until Routrou III adopted the style of count of Perche in 1126, thus uniting the lordship of Mortagne-au-Perche, the viscountcy of Châteaudun and the lordship of Nogent-le-Rotrou in the countship of Perche and Montagne.

Lords of Mortagne

House of Rorgonid

• Hervé I, 941- 955
• Hervé II, 974–980, son of the previous

Here after, the title is merged with the viscount of Châteaudun and the lord of Nogent-le-Rotrou.

Lords of Nogent-le-Rotrou

House of Nogent-le-Rotrou

• Rotrou I, 960–996
• Fulcois, son of the previous and husband of Melisende, Viscountess of Châteaudun, daughter of Herve I

Here after, the title is merged with the viscount of Châteaudun and the lord of Mortagne-au-Perche

House of Châteaudun

• Fulcuich, c. 1000
• Geoffroy I, d. bef. 1041 (viscount of Châteaudun, lord of Nogent-le-Rotrou and of Mortagne-au Perche)
• Hugh I, d. c. 1077–1080 (viscount of Châteaudun, lord of Nogent-le-Rotrou and of Mortagne-au Perche)
• Rotrou II, d. c. 1077–1080 (viscount of Châteaudun, lord of Nogent-le-Rotrou and of Mortagne-au Perche)

Here after, the title is separated in count of Perche and count of Mortagne.

No sources, however.

So, the most I can say, after all this, is that - based on no primary sources -

French Wikipedia, English Wikipedia, and Medlands appear to agree on this much:

Herve I is likely the father of

• Gerberge (m GELDUIN Seigneur de Saumur)

and

• Hildergarde (m HUGUES Vicomte de Châteaudun)

But:

• English Wikipedia thinks Herve II is Herve I's other child
• French Wikipedia seems to think Herve II is Gerberge's son, so Herve I's grandson. Also gives Gerberge two grandsons called Geoffrey
• Medlands doesn't have a Herve II and has sources for Gerberge's Samur children as Geoffroy and Cana (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/anjounob.htm#GelduinSaumurMGerberge)

As I recall my look into this was focused on questions regarding Melisende and Geoffroi and her profile and that there were several alternative approaches to her and her marriages, none supported by primary sourcing. It was a while ago and I recall Pam interpreted some French sources for me. I look and see if I still have the research...

You've attached quite good stuff to the profile already.

• Elsewhere, French Wikipedia thinks Hervé II may be the son of Hervé I (Source Christian Settipani , “The viscounts of Châteaudun and their allies”, in Onomastique et Kinship in the Medieval West , Oxford, Linacre College, Unit for Prosopographical Research, coll. "Prosopographica and Genealogica / 3",2000, 310 p. ( ISBN 1-900934-01-9 ) , p. 247-261 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herv%C3%A9_II_de_Mortagne

So I'm going to leave Herve II there Herve, II Count of Montagne-du-Perche

Nobody, however, thinks Herve II's successor - Fulques - is his son.

• Medlands conjectures that Fulcois is the son of ROTROU (-after 12 Feb 996). Seigneur de Nogent - giving no connection to Herves II https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/cfrachacha.htm#FulcoisNogent
• English Wikipedia agrees: Fulcuich (Fulcois) (died before 1032), Count of Mortagne, son of Rotrou, Seigneur de Nogent. It has been conjectured that Fulcuich's ancestor was Hervé I, Lord of Mortagne-au-Perche, through Hildegarde de Mortagne de Perche, daughter of Herve I, wife of Rotrou.- citing Medlands amongst others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulcuich
• French Wikipedia disagrees: Fulcois probably son of Geoffroy I st , Viscount Châteaudun and Hildegard of Mortagne, and younger brother of the archbishop-Viscount Hugues I st . In the 980s, he inherited the county of Mortagne which was held by his maternal uncle Hervé II - citing Settipani .https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulcois_du_Perche

cf Fulcois, Seigneur de Nogent-le-Rotrou. Comte de Mortagne

French Wikipedia says: Traditional genealogies offer Fulcois as a son of Rotrou Nogent and Mélisende as a daughter of Geoffroy I st Châteaudun . However, this genealogy poses a certain number of problems:

1. why Hugues I st , when he became archbishop in 1003, gave the Viscount Châteaudun to the son ( Geoffrey I st - II ) of his sister Melisende, when he had at least one brother (Alo / Adalaud of Chinon ), admittedly deceased before 1003, but father of two sons?
2. Why the stronghold of Mortagne , probably owned by the family of Hildegard, mother of the Viscount Archbishop Hugues I st and Alo Chinon, would then be held by a son of the latter (Fulcois) to exclusion of his two sons Hugues and Alo?

This reconstruction proposes to see Fulcois as a son of Geoffroy I st Châteaudun and Mélisende like a girl Rotrou Nogent. This proposal resolves the problems mentioned above.

French Wikipedia take the following to be facts:

That Fulcois or Fulcuich is cited as count in a donation made around 1051/60 by Rotrou II, count of Mortagne and viscount of Châteaudun (Rotrou Ier), for the rest of the soul, among others, of his ancestor Fulcois.

The father of Rotrou II-I, Geoffroy Ier comte du Perche and viscount of Châteaudun (Geoffroy II), who describes himself as nephew of Hugh I of Châteaudun, archbishop of Tours, mentions his mother Mélisende and his uncle Burchard in an act that he signed in 1032.

Other documents allow to establish that the count-viscount Geoffroy I-II is a grandson of Rotrou, count of Nogent,
and that Archbishop Hugues is a son of Geoffroy I, viscount of Châteaudun and a Hildegard, and that he has a brother named Alo / Adalaud / Adalard de Chinon.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulcois_du_Perche

The Breve Chronicon of Bonneval abbey records that “vicecomes Castridunensis Gaufridus” donated “alodum...Villa Siltula”, for the souls of “sue et uxoris Hermengardis”, and that “filius suus...Hugo” donated “aliam villam juxta sitam...Buxeriam”

suggests that French Wikipedia has it wrong, and Viscount Geoffrey I is married to Ermengarde (not Hildegrade), whose son is Hugo.

and "Hildegardis, vicecomitissa Castridunensis" donated property "alodum meum de Bello Monte" to "sanctissimo Petro Carnotensis cœnobii", with the consent of "filio meo Hugone, archiepiscopo Turonorum", by charter dated to 1020, signed by ""Hugo archipræsul., Gausfridi nepotis eius…Helgaudi filii archiepiscopi…"

suggests that Archbishop Hugo is the son of Hildegarde (husband of Hugo I) and that Geoffrey (II) is Hugo (I)'s grandchild.

Thus Hugo I is the father of Archbishop Hugo, not the same person - and Hugo I passes the Viscount Châteaudun to his grandson Geoffrey.

Geoffrey is nephew of Archbishop Hugues, and grandson of Hugo I, Viscount Châteaudun

French Wikipedia may also be telling us that with " Il est cité comme comte dans une donation faite vers 1051/60 par Rotrou II, comte de Mortagne et vicomte de Châteaudun (Rotrou Ier), pour le repos de l'âme, entre autres, de son aïeul Fulcois.'

that Fulcois is Rotrou's grandfather - not just his ancestor - which would make it more certain that he is Melisende's husband.

But we still have no certainty as to whether Settipani's theory that Fulcois is Archbishop Hugo's brother (not Melisende - who is then Rotrou's daughter instead of Fulcois) - is the better one.

cf: https://media.geni.com/p13/94/cb/af/e6/53444851541c65b7/melisende_de_chateaudun_-_the_arguements_original.pdf?hash=9c85cf60e348c8be5b74e733d66ffce7049909c897901fb17805d7b5b205e30d.1771401599

The viscounts of Châteaudun and their allies.

Christian Settipani (University of Sorbonne, Paris)1999

Let us quickly take up the question of the genealogy of the viscounts of Châteaudun:

• 1) of 989 to 1003, the viscount is Hugo, brother of Adalaud, son of Viscount Gausfred and Hildegardis, father of a Helgaud and a Hugo and uncle of a Gausfred;
• 2) in 1004, Hugo, who became Archbishop of Tours, resigns in favor of a Gausfred;
• 3) in 1015/1028, the viscount Gausfred is cited with his son Gausfred;
• 4) in 1007/1029, Viscount Gausfred is cited with his wife Helvidis and their son Hugo;
• 5) in 1031-1032, Viscount Gausfred, nephew of Archbishop Hugo, mentions his mother Melisendis, his uncle Burchard, his wife Helvidis and their sons Hugo and Rotrocus. He died in 1038/9;
• 6) in 1051/1060, Count Rotrocus, husband of Adelais and father of Gausfred, Hugo, Rotrocus, Fulcois and Helvidis, makes a donation for his ancestor Fulcois, his uncle Hugo and his father, Viscount Gausfred.

The above still assumes that Viscount Hugo in 1 and 2 for 989 - 1003 is the one who becomes the Archbishop, not the one who is his father.

but there appears good reason to believe that the father Hugues only dies after 989, and it is may be equally well be he, not his son, who is signing the below in 996 as Vicomte de Châteaudun.

"…Hugonis vicecomitis, Alonis fratris eius…" signed the charter dated 996 which records the confirmation by "comitissæ Berthæ" of the donation by "Odo comes" of property for the construction of the abbey of Bourgeuil, with the consent of "filiorum suorum Teobaldi…atque Odonis"[ Lex (1892), Pièces Justificatives, VI, p. 129.]

cf Hugues de Chartres, Vicomte de Châteaudun

Settipani seems convinced, though, that this yet-to-be Archbishop Hugo appears first as viscomte in 989, and since Cawley puts that as the first possible date for his father's death, I must assume that something else in the documentation which they have perused makes it more certain that the yet to be Archbishop becomes Vicomte de Châteaudun in 989.

cf Hugues, Vicomte de Châteaudun, Archbishop of Tours

Either way, Settipani's point stands that it is odd that the next Viscount after Hugues becomes Archbishop, appears to be Melisende's son Geoffrey, and not Archbishop Hugue's brother or one of his two sons, or Archbishop Hugues own to sons.

cf brother: Seigneur Adalaud de Chateau-Chinon
sons: Helgaud & Hughes

vs sister Mélisende, viscountess of Châteaudun 's son Geoffroy du Perche, vicomte de Châteaudun

Settipani's full argument kindly uploaded by David Bigelow here: https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000176786250975 . I have added a translation into English

Settipani's argument is that nothing in the sparse documentation on Melisende precludes us from replacing her as the Archbishop's sibling, with her husband, Fulcois, Seigneur de Nogent-le-Rotrou. Comte de Mortagne As a second son it would be logical for his (and Melisende's) son to inherit as Viscount.
Although this seems to me to require Fulcois to have died by 10004, when Geoffrey becomes Viscount.

But Settipani's statement that

"It is clear that Fulcois was on the paternal ascendant line of Rotrocus: in the terms of the donation of the latter successively honoring the memory of Fulcois, then of his (paternal) uncle Hugo and his father Gausfred, testify to this"

doesn't make his argument at all, in my opinion.

He is referencing this charter dated to [c1065] under which

"Rotrochus comes de Mauritania et mea uxor Adeliz et filii nostri Rotrochus et ceteri nostri infantes" donated property to Saint-Vincent du Mans, for the anniversary of "avi mei Fulcuich comitis et avunculi mei Hugonis et patris mei vicecomitis Gaufridi"[ Le Mans Saint-Vincent, Liber primus, 609, p. 350.]

The correct translation of 'avunculi' is maternal uncle, not paternal uncle (as Settipani oddly asserts) - which is 'patrui' - so this is not necessarily a paternal ascent line tribute only. (In fact, given that the donation also comes from Rotrochus' wife, Adelise - it isn't surprising that her family might be included too). I don't see any Hugos (or Fulcois, for that matter) in Adelise's line, though - so Settipani might simply be correcting what he considers a clerical error - but then strange to use it to make an argument. While it may also be used simply to denote any great uncle; the possibility is also that it’s being used to describe his grandmother’s brother - which places Melisende more firmly as Archbishop’s Hugo’s sister.

So the possible translations are:

"Rotrochus, count of Mauritania and my wife Adeliz, and our son Rostrochus, and the rest of our infants” donated property to Saint-Vincent du Mans, for the anniversary of “my GRANDFATHER/FOREFATHER Count Fulcuich, my MATERNAL / GREAT UNCLE Hugonis, and my father Viscount Gaufridi.”