King David of Israel - Did something change?

Started by Kyle Dean Perkey on Monday, December 27, 2021
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Can I say something as a Jew?

I was raised - and genealogists have confirmed - with the knowledge that there is no known connection from “modern” times to “biblical” times. In fact that knowledge is part of our Diaspora story. Some one who practices more and was more steeped in the culture than I can help you all understand better, but I think my view is a common one. We believe (have faith) that we are (more or less) the same peoples - but there is no genealogy to be written, any moment soon.

So I can’t help but feel squeamish when people who don’t have a Jewish cultural find it a useful genealogical pursuit. Can I ask why?

To give a perspective - one should never say something is a closed subject when it is not as that is just an opinion. Not fact. Just because it is a way someone was raise or what they think, or what they say does not make it so.

The verdict is still out and nothing has been confirmed. Keeping an open mind is an asset in these times one would think.

Scientists have discovered a gene which can be traced from the Biblical figure of Aaron, the first High Priest (kohen) of the Jewish people, to a segment of the Jewish population today which carries the priestly lineage. https://www.israel365news.com/49932/dna-studies-prove-existence-of-...

Within the Jewish community, genealogical studies have shown several families that can claim descent ben akhar ben (father to son) in a direct line, most notably the Dayan, Shealtiel and Charlap/Don Yechia families. Most of these families come from Aleppo, Syria. https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/74034/king-davids-descendants-re... https://vilnagaon.org/king-david/

The Sephardi Path https://momentmag.com/king-davids-genes-2/

Rashi is not the only way for a family to link itself to King David. Sephardi families usually trace their lineage through the line of exilarchs and at least two major ones trace their line back to the last exilarch.

After the last exilarch, Hezekiah, was killed in 1040 CE—the same year that Rashi was born—his two grown sons, Yitzhak and David, fled Baghdad with their families to Granada, Spain, then a vibrant center of Judaic life with a Jewish grand vizier. Each son became the patriarch of a family that would become highly prominent in the diaspora. “The Shaltiel family sprang from Yitzhak, whose eldest son was the first Shaltiel,” says Moshe Shaltiel-Gracian, a resident of a Chicago suburb who has taken an active role in researching his family’s history.

In 1066 the Jewish grand vizier of Granada was assassinated and the Shaltiel family headed north to Spain and Portugal. There, many family members flourished, while others traveled east to Salonika and Italy. Still others intermarried for several generations with the Jewish kings of Narbonne, an independent city-state founded by Charlemagne that stretched north from Barcelona to Aquitaine and was a major hub of Jewish scholarship. Narbonne’s ruling families are said to be descended from Natronai, a former exhilarch in Baghdad who had been force to flee after losing political support.

While researching his family, Shaltiel-Gracian found Shaltiels in 25 countries. Their names had morphed into Sealtiel, Saltiel, Scietliel, Chartiel, Xaltiel and Saltelli, among others. “Many of them are not Jewish but they are very happy to know about it [the King David connection],” he says, adding that the family now holds regular international reunions. In 2000, the BBC aired a documentary on the family, Shealtiel: A Family Saga.

Along the way, Shaltiel-Gracian met Arthur Menton, who grew up during the Depression in the Bronx and now lives in Long Island. A member of the Charlap family, Menton was also descended from the last Exilarch Hezekiah, but through his other son, David. David’s son Chaim also left Granada in 1066, settling in Portugal. He is the progenitor of the Charlap family, which has also been known by many other names, among them ibn-Daoud, ibn-Yahya, Ben Chaim, Don Yahia, Donyechia and Donkhin, explains Menton, who has published his family research in The Book of Destiny: Toledot Charlap. It was Chaim’s son, Chiya, the chief advisor to the first king of Portugal, and a military leader and a scholar, who took the title Charlap. “It was typical that the famous leaders of the Jewish community took acronyms as titles, and he was first to use the title Charlap, which stands for “first in the exile in Portugal,” says Menton.

Chiya gave rise to the powerful ibn-Yahya dynasty, which had vast landholdings in Portugal and Spain. But with the expulsions from Spain and Portugal, the family was forced to flee, spreading throughout the Mediterranean basin and the Ottoman Empire. Two hundred years later, a Rabbi Eliezer ibn-Yahya living in Poland was asked to take a title. “He chose one from 500 years before—Charlap,” says Menton. When Jews were required to take surnames at the turn of the 19th century, most family members adopted Charlap. However, one Charlap, a dairyman, bucked tradition and took the name Ser, meaning cheese in Polish. Menton’s mother’s maiden name was Sahr, a corruption of Ser.

An engineer by profession, Menton says that researching his family is the most satisfying thing he has ever done. “I have gone all over the world meeting relatives and I have gathered up 20 family trees,” he says. “They didn’t know of each other but they mirrored each other remarkably and they all have the Davidic connection.” One of these trees hangs in the library of the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York. He has found letters that speak of the family’s King David lineage and his nephew uncovered a medieval document describing the coat of arms of ibn-Yahya family in Spain and Portugal. It includes the Lion of Judah—to symbolize the Davidic throne—as well as an eagle that stands for courage and a Star of David behind a Ten Commandments above which is a crown, representing the royal House of David. There is also a spade, he explains, which signifies that the family will be instrumental in rebuilding the reestablished kingdom of Israel, and a palm frond referring to the land of milk and honey.
“We have thousands of relatives in Israel, everyone from humble farmers in Galilee to people like Dorit Benesch who is retiring chief of Israel’s Supreme Court and her sister, the head of the faculty of humanities at Tel Aviv University,” says Menton. “ I have relatives who are scientists at the Weitzman Institute and one who is a beekeeper on a kibbutz next to the Gaza strip. And many rabbis still retain the name Charlap. We crisscross the whole society of Israel.” There are also many prominent Charlap family members in America, he says, including the jazz pianist Dick Hyman, Abram Sachar, the first president of Brandeis University who died in 1993, and his son, the historian Howard Sachar.

https://szin.neocities.org/genealogy/davidic.html

It's a good question! I bet there are many different answers to that question but mine is this: by my father's father's father and so on my line goes back to Biblical times. My Bible (Old Testament), your Torah, which to me is a legitimate document, was originally written in ancient times yet the historical facts in them are still in existence today, right? Over the past several years, archaeologists have found additional Dead Sea Scrolls which no one knew existed! So what official documents from Ancient Times or the Early Middle Ages going forward are yet to be found? Do we really know? I could be wrong but I don't think we know what's really out there! Historians and the scientific world make new discoveries all the time! So, I believe there is hope yet for verification of my lineage to King David. Why do I want to know for sure? Because I am a faith-filled person and it would be an honor to be a part of his family. Without getting into a religious discussion on this forum, that is my reasoning. I didn't go looking for the lineage, the lineage was sent to me. Now I am slowly working on verifying the direct ancestors. I hope this answers your question without chasing too many rabbits down the rabbit hole! LOL!

Re: https://www.geni.com/discussions/242996?msg=1532740

I would support entering these lines also, with either blank profiles or profiles called 15 gens or any other idea or development. Then both groups will be happy, those including myself who are upset at losing a connection, will get their lines back, clearly missing the names of those generation but connected nontheless, and professional geneologists will stay true to their study. What do you say to this Randy Schoenberg?

This is antithetical to geni’s mission and tree. It’s not about professional vs hobbyist (etc). It’s about the truth, as we understand it. Which is that there is no known way to get from “then” to “now.”

To see potential pedigrees, use Geni projects, you’d find it it a far more illuminating way to research.

I can only echo Erica's statement.

If a document states "there are 15 generations between X and Y" but gives no further information then that is a claim which is not supported by evidence. The claim in and of itself is not evidence.

Collaborative genealogy must be evidence based or it becomes meaningless.

It’s about the truth, as we understand it. Which is that there is no known way to get from “then” to “now.”

The truth as you might understand it may not be the truth.

And just because someone says that there is no known way from then to now does not make that the truth.

And just because something is a belief or opinion does not make it a fact as history has been documented for thousands of years and even though there have been many attempts to eradicate the history even today does not mean that it has been or will be sucessful.

And consensus genealogy as what we are experiencing today is not factual genealogy based on science, documentation and DNA.

There is always more to learn and a wise person knows that, especially that a true genius knows really they know nothing in the big picture of things. It is always better to keep searching for the truth instead of closing the door and inaccurately stating that the truth is what it actual is not.

The truth is everyday we learn more about genealogy, history, and DNA as knowledge grows in 'leaps and bounds' and to say different and be stuck on absolutes that do not exist based on limitations is foolish and selling the possibility of growth short.

Be careful that what your limits of understanding does not close the door on truths.

I think openmindedness is a far more illuminating way to research.

I find it always better to research all aspects of available truths about history myself to learn all I can instead of just taking someones word on it as it a fact and opinion is the same thing.

So much about history and genealogy is being dismissed and altered because of opinions or political philosophies today. THAT is a true and sad fact.

So I can’t help but feel squeamish when people who don’t have a Jewish cultural find it a useful genealogical pursuit. Can I ask why?

You do not have to be of a culture to ehibit curiosity, to emphasize or identify with a culture but to dramatize as to feeling squeamish depicts a bit of elitism IMO as even Nazi Germany studied the existance of the Davidic lines in the attampt to eradicate the race through the halocaust, unsucessfully but then the Nazi leader Hitler himself was a jew, yet I doubt he felt squeamish in his genealogical pursuits.

Openmindedness and the ability to let others seek knowledge freely indeed would be a far more illuminating way to research. IMHO.

On a lighter note...I found what changed in my lineage
Kyle Dean Perkey! I added my 4th great-grandparents on my paternal grandmother's side. When I did that, the relationship path went thru that line instead of my paternal grandfather's line which is where the connection is in my family. Good luck with your research!☺️

Jacqueli Charlene Finley very well put.

Sarah Pley Thank you. Sorry about the typos glad my meaning didn't get lost. Happy New Year all.

Constance Derosier Carter glad to hear you found what changed and that it was not some secret cancel culture attempt to obscure the truth :)

Jacqueli Charlene Finley work the lines, add evidence, improve the quality of the tree. Everything else is just your opinion.

The truth in any situation is objective, I'm not even sure what you think the word truth means. Add evidence to each link in the chain of profiles back to David. It's that easy.

Primary sources.
Secondary sources.
Tertiary sources.
Genealogy 101.

No source for a link? Don't be surprised if it is cut. If you have evidence, present it and the link can be restored readily enough.

Jacqueli Charlene Finley you're welcome. Happy New Year to you cousin.

Alex Moes

I agree!!!

Genealogy is simplistic, reductive, binary. 2 by 2. That’s it. There’s nothing open minded about it: switch on, switch off. What turns on the switch? Coming reasonably close to meeting the Genealogical Proof Standard. There’s a bit of room there for opinion, but GPS is legalistic, and the “laws” don’t change much.

History and sciences are the places for theory, open minded ness, experiments, math, speculation. There are some good numbers quoted on the Charlemagne discussion, basically the chances are everyone with Euro ancestry is likely a Chuckles descendant, but proof? Another kettle of fish. Now, multiply that problem by another 5,000 years.

Proof will probably be outside of genealogy altogether.

History and science is genealogy.

Alex Moes

While I was downloading DNA docs I ran a quick Descendant report for David from a GED

Here you go: https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000181247794833&...

Glad I passed Gen 101 ;)

(Sob)

Jacqueli Charlene Finley, that descendant report shows no citations of any kind. That is the fundamental problem here. What are the sources?

Whether David has known descendants doesn't matter to me personally one way or the other -- all I ask is that we cite like the genealogists we're supposed to be. I would again suggest that people invested in maintaining their connection follow their path back to David, making sure every single step of the path is properly cited with valid sources. Anyone disappointed about losing their path should present sources confirming it was accurate in the first place. Without that, there's really nothing more we can do.

There is only one family that is possibly supported to be descended from King David with some type of evidence. No others. We are talking an enormous number of generations folks, be sensible.

In general, few Jewish lines can be traced back far, and those that can are of rabbinical families who had generations of rabbis, who people wrote genealogies for. And for those, women were either entirely omitted or their given names were usually unstated, all we know about them are husband's names.

Frankly we don't even have the evidence to support some of the lines from the Vilna Gaon and that was only a couple of centuries ago.

Where do you think the documents might be for supporting 30 generations of ancestry when we can't find more than 2 - 4 generations generally? Records just do not exist for the most part, where they do, it is only into the 1600s - 1700s for major families or certain cities.

Jacqueli Charlene Finley the document you link is just rubbish, anytime you spent uploading it would have been better used in the garden watching the lawn grow.

https://media.geni.com/p13/ff/5b/09/b1/534448601f8dde91/descendants_of_king_of_judea_david_60_gens_jcf_original.pdf?hash=821606ff4f51f9023553f4f0e775f50a2275f7596a02cff87ba57d708d8c8e33.1765699199

"He married (2) BATHSHEBA in second husband. She was born about 980 AD in BC, of, Judea." Gibberish, you're literally wasting everyone's time.

The first page (i just can't keep reading) has "Luke 4:24" in numerous locations implying that is the source of this information but not only is Luke 4:24 not related to this subject at all but even if it was the Gospel of Luke dates to late first century CE so is not a primary source for events that purportedly happened a thousand years earlier.

So to sum up: Personal trees can afford to have "15 generations missing here" to show where links could be found. A collective tree like Geni that aims at showing genealogically valid Sources cannot.

Right now, if you have a direct descent line from yourself to David on Geni, there are fabricated profiles on it somewhere. When another serious genealogical user finds them and removes them it will break that link. This isn't what 'cancel culture' means; and it's not a personal agenda. It's called Genealogy.

Projects are a better way to document your rearch interests in this area rather than filling in fabricated missing links for the sake of a complete line: For example, this is me trying to research the connections between Herod and the Hasmoneans: https://www.geni.com/projects/Herod-the-Hasmoneans-in-the-time-of-the-biblical-Jesus/10897.

This Discussion has the potential to go around in circles for pages, and Curators cannot keep coming back to assert Geni's operating principles to those who join without reading the whole thread. When we disengage with the Discussion, it's because we've all now said what can be said about the fact which Alex points to earlier "Collaborative genealogy must be evidence based or it becomes meaningless."

Agree ...... Jacqueli -
and/or genealogy is history & science.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/genealogy

J P Weyers

"good ship lollipop"

rotfl!

Ann -- I think too much folktale often and not enough pedigree and desecent followed by a lot of us and we must be aware of that pitfall.

Roger that -

J P Weyers

The coin collection is great. A stamp collection could also be fun. For the grandkids, I came up with a custom card deck, now they can play 'Ancestor Fish,' and learn a little history and genealogy while playing a simple, fun card game.

Love those ideas about "Ancestor Games" or "Ancestor Collections" as it may get them interested in not just history, but time. I find that so many people are not are of time and the fact that civilizations overlap. I was just correcting a profile last week that had the person in the American Civil War, when he was a veteran of the War of 1812. Don't even ask if they understand the difference.

Susanne Floyd -- agree with you. The whole experience on Geni can teach one so much.
Here in South African very few are aware that the Huguenots also went to the UK, South America , USA or that they were not all French.

J P Weyers yes, I have found so much about migration of peoples on here. It is amazing! I always love to see where I connect with someone and where the family paths diverged. The Huguenots traveled into North and South Carolina - British Colonies then and made there way into most of the Eastern US. We have a Huguenot Church in Charleston, SC today.

King David of Israel is your 109th great grandfather.

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