Rabbi Zacharia HaNavi and Rabbi Ysroel Lipkin Salanter Project

Started by Private User on Saturday, February 19, 2022
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Private User
2/19/2022 at 8:24 PM

Rabbinical Lineage of Interest: The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman
Rabbinical Lineage of Interest: Reb Yisrael Salanter which goes back to Dov Ber

I've started a dedicated discussion to this project so as to avoid multiple conversations on the same thread. Persons who have commented on this particular project in prior discussions or may have an interest in this project have been invited here.

Private User
Private User
Ilya Lipkin

Private User
2/19/2022 at 8:28 PM

Additional Invite: Private User

Private User
2/19/2022 at 9:10 PM

This is rather interesting from Kaganoff's Dictionary of Jewish Names (this is new to me):

"Lipman (Patronymic)" Lipman is a kinnui of Eliezer. Eliezer was often associated with the German name Gottlieb. Gottlieb was shortened to Lieb. which was then lengthened to Liebman or Lipman. Lipman appears as Lipa or Lapman. Variations of this name are Lipkin and Litman..." p172

"Lieberman (Patronymic): This name is a curious development from Eliezer. Eliezer became Eliezerman, which was abbreviated to Lieserman Lieserman ultimately became Lieberman." p171

As always, it can be difficult to know whether two independent facts (Lipkin and Lieberman both from Eliezer) are merely coincidental or are connected in some way.

Unrelated to the above is this:

"Fishkin, Fishkind (Patronymic): The name is the kinnui of Ephraim, plus the slavic suffix -kin, denoting descent. The suffix was later extended to "kind..". p151. [And I surmise also to -el, as in Fischel]. Perhaps FIschel was merely the second name (kinnui) of an early Ephraim and was later used as a surname to identify the prestigious ancestry.

I'm hoping longtime students of these lineages will have developed some idea of how these names developed.

All of this could be for nought if the common ancestry between the two lines turns out to be from a much earlier time.

Private User
2/20/2022 at 4:45 AM

Private User, does the potential connection to Rabbi Ephraim Fishel come from the fact that The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman's grandson was R' Ephraim Fischel Parnas Lieberman, A.B.D. Ludmir and secretary of the Council of the Four Lands@?

Surely if Fischel was a kinnui for Ephraim this would be be a common combination of names and would not necessarily indicate descent from Rabbi Ephraim Fishel?

Private User
2/20/2022 at 7:01 AM

Private User Yes it is purely speculative based on names, prominence of the two families, and the locations of HaNavi and Rabbi Eprhaim Fishel of the 15th Century (Cracow). Curiously, R' Ephraim Fishel (of the 15th Century) had three sons: Moshe, Yakov, and Yosef and nothing seems to be known about the latter two's trees. There don't appear to be any living ydna descendants via Moshe, unfortunately. Speculations like this one do not merit much more attention at this stage, but I like to make a note of everything that comes to mind along the way.

Private User
2/20/2022 at 7:05 AM

Private User, understood.

If The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman is indeed an ancestor of Rabbi Yisrael Salanter, then this provides a link of Salanter back to Rashi.

The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman's wife is a direct descendant of Rashi.

Private User
2/20/2022 at 8:21 AM

Thank you for the invite. I appreciate it. I'm blown away by the knowledge here and appreciate all the work being done. Following attentively.

Private User
2/20/2022 at 11:31 AM

Well, I see Ilya Lipkin in my FamilytrreeDna as : 4th remote cousin with only: [ 22cM & 14 L.B.]
I see he's an [ R-Z43 YDna ] & MtDna l1c1a...
I also did a tracer relationship to me on my tree here at Geni. and see a very distant through marriage's to me through my fathers mother Henje Basch way back to my GR.x 5 gandmother
Esther Rachel dau.of Magid Derbarmemdiker. brother....
all the way coming forward in time through marriage's to Itchak Lipkin down 4 gen.to ilya.

Private User
2/20/2022 at 3:06 PM

Private User, many thanks.

I was wondering what it might say for the two of you in terms of your *Y-DNA* (not normal family finder) match. What’s the genetic distance?

Cc: Private User

Private User
2/20/2022 at 3:09 PM

Private User Thanks very much for this update. Based on what we know you would not be expected to match Ilya closely on Family Finder, so all is well. The trail we are investigating probably would not show up on GENI yet.

The information I would need at this point is found on the y111 match list. Are you familiar with this list? From the home page you would go to YDNA Matches and then run a search for Lipkin. It is possible that Ilya does not turn up on this search, but if he does, then please look at the Genetic Distance column and let me know the number in that column.

Private User
2/20/2022 at 4:41 PM

It's none existing only when I got down to y37
22cM & 14 lb. 4th cousins remote.

Private User
2/20/2022 at 4:43 PM

Also I know the path though the geni search all through marriages etc.

Private User
2/20/2022 at 5:56 PM

Private User Thanks for the next step. LIttle by little this may be getting somewhere.

I understand Ilya does not appear after a search on your match lists until you reach the Y37 level list. Would it be possible for your tell me what is the Genetic Distance between you and Ilya at Y37?

Relevant to this discussion: could you please verify what are the genetic tests you did at FTDNA? Did you do Big Y 700, and/or Big Y 500, and/or Y111, and/or Y67, and/or Y37, and/or Y25, and/or Y12? Did you do any SNP Packs or individual SNP tests?

Private User
2/21/2022 at 8:37 AM

Since the prior posts may seem confusing, for the sake of clarification I would like to explain something I have learned from prior studies and I apologize if this gets a little technical: it is sometimes necessary to analyze the data more deeply than what FTDNA does with match lists, especially when deaiing with much earlier periods of history. FTDNA is designed to help users find recent relatives and therefore has created certain thresholds beyond which the data is not covered by their reports.

Let me explain a little further: when FTDNA searches for Y111 matches it stops at a genetic distance (GD) of 10. NO MATCHES WITH A GD LARGER THAN 10 ARE SHOWN. Likewise, at Y67 NO MATCHES WITH A GD LARGER THAN 7 ARE SHOWN. At Y37 the limit is GD=4. So the fact that Ilya does not appear on Mark's y111 or y67 lists means that Ilya and Mark are at distance greater than 10 at y111 or 7 at y67, but 4 or less at y37. I was hoping that the GDs ar y111 or y67 might be below the threshold, but the fact that this did not happen is NOT THE END OF THE STORY.

Since we are investigating a possible ydna common ancestry from around 1550 or before, it is still possible for Ilya and Mark to have a common ydna common ancestor from this time and also have a GD of more than 10 at y111 and more than 7 at y67.

Turning to the haplotree, we know that Ilya is Z43 and that Mark is L4 (see footnote). On the current FTDNA haplotree there are are several branches below L4 and their estimated formation times: Y13082 (617 CE) >Y130311 (1249 CE) >Y129043 (1644 CE) >Y39367 (1760 CE) >Y24134 (1760 CE).

Putting these two together, it remains a possibility for Mark and Ilya to be in the Y129043 group, for example, and yet have a GD of more than 10 at y111.

There are two ways to come to a reasonable conclusion: 1) I would need to obtain both Y111 STR haplotypes to compare them in greater detail, or 2) I would need to ascertain both ultimate, current haplogroups. In order to avoid the cost of further testing, I would opt for (1) but this will require Ilya's participation since he will have to provide his y111 haplotype (unless someone else has access to these numbers from another FTDNA project). If I am able to obtain Ilya's y111 haplotype then I will request the same of Mark (which can easily be done by email).

Footnote: I am not sure Mark's current level of SNP testing, but for some reason his haplogroup designation stops at L4. There could be various explanations for this depending on how much testing has been done and when those tests were done. When I have ascertained Mark's level of testing I will delve into this further. Ilya has done only the y111 test which does not provide the necessary ultimate haplogroup information. Ideally we would have a current and complete haplogroup classification for both Ilya and Mark, but for now I am using the data available to me to draw reasonable inferences.

Private User
2/21/2022 at 8:48 AM

Private User, thank you very much.

With a genetic distance >10 at Y-111, would you still say there is a probability that Mark and Ilya share a common Y-DNA around 1550? Or is there no way of knowing until further testing and/or analysis is done?

Also, Private User do you by any chance know if any of your Y-DNA matches that are closer to you in terms of genetic distance are descendants of Rabbis?

Private User
2/21/2022 at 8:51 AM

YES, BIG Y 700 & MyDna full seq.on familytreeDna ; AncestryDna; 23&meDna; MyheritageDna ; GEDMatchDna, etc.
I have been working on this for several years now and control several family Dna kits as well,
I Did Mt father Aron Lieberman [ Big Y 700 ] & MtDna full seq. my Mother Cecelia Rothman Lieberman MtDna full sequence , my sisters Joyce Lieberman Sherry Weinstein; My Mothers brother Stanley RothmanBig Y700 & Mtdna full seq. ..
My father passed 2018 ; mother 2018 , my uncle Stanley Rothman 2019.
I am : FT-96541 in familytreeDna & MtDna full Seq. J2b1e
My father Aron : MtDna full seq. K1a9 & same as me Big Y of course.
My uncle Stanley , BIG Y 700 : RBY-109617 exact match with Todd Leavitt !!!
also, of interest is David Seide & Michael Zeide being researched by Dr. Jeffery Mark Paull
" The Shpola Zeide".
My fathers mothers side Katz= katzenellenbogen,
my Lieberman side; Luria/Spira antiquity family.
That's about all for now.
family names include : Deutch ; Wiesel ; Leimzeider; Gartenberg; Sternbach : Guggenheim;
& several others. It's quite a List.
Thanks & kind regards to all.
Mark Rothman -Basch-Lieberman

Private User
2/21/2022 at 10:21 AM

Private User Mark's latest post informs of his most current and ultimate haplogroup: FT96541, making Mark's path slightly different from my earlier post. The new path is: Y130082 > Y130311 > FT96541. There are three other SNPs in the FT96541 block. This correction does not alter the basic proposition.

From where I sit, there is still a possibility that Ilya and Mark could share the FT96541 SNP, or one or more of the other SNPs in FT96541 block from around 1550 CE (and still they would not turn up on each other's y111 or y67 match lists). How much of a probability is difficult to pin down, but consider this: on FTDNA's TiP calculator a GD of 10 means that there is a 80.8% probability the MRCA lived between about 1535 (17 generations at 25 years per re-generation, calculated from 1960) and the present. As the GD rises the probability decreases with each additional step, but even at 11, 12, 13, etc., there is still going to be a decent probability of the MRCA being from about 1535 or later. It all depends on the actual genetic distance number on the y111 scale. Since FTDNA isn't able to report this number due to its limit of 10, it has to be done mechanically using the STR haplotypes (which can be downloaded easily from the Y-STR results page).

At a minimum, further analysis of the two sets of y111 haplotypes is necessary to inch closer to an answer. I have developed a calculator for estimating TMRCA using y111 which I can run in about three minutes, if I have the two sets of data. If both Ilya and Mark were to join the FTDNA project I host, then I could obtain the y111 haplotypes directly without further ado. So there are various ways of moving forward.

Private User
2/21/2022 at 10:31 AM

Private User, I understand. Many thanks.

In terms of resolving this, then ... would you say that the first stage is to analyse both Ilya and Mark's haplotypes? And, if that is not conclusive, then perhaps further testing?

From a paper-trail point of view, it may be worth working downwards to see if any of The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman's were in Plunge, where Yisrael Salanter's Lipkin ancestors were from.

Finally, am I correct in saying this is the ftDNA project you are referring to? https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/cherson-family-project/about

Private User
2/21/2022 at 10:51 AM

Private User Yes: next best thing to do is analyze haplotypes. What you suggest as to paper trail I would wait until there is a solid genetic foundation to do so. Yes, that is the FTDNA project. Even though this project is about a J-M267 lineage, I use it for temporary side projects as well (laborious to keep creating new projects). Side projects are kept off the project-wide data tables: side project info is available only to me and for the purposes of these types of analysis.

Private User
2/21/2022 at 10:54 AM

Private User great. I'll send the link to the project to Ilya, as well as this Geni project.

Private User
2/22/2022 at 11:56 PM

It looks like there may be some confusion on Rabbi Zecharia’s lineage. It may be a duplicate of:

Rabbi Zecharya Mendel Kalusziner/Klausner, of Krakow

Zecharia Mendel ben Arye Leib of Cracow, auth. "Be'er Heitev"

Was this ever resolved, Private User?

Private User
2/23/2022 at 7:25 AM

Private User, I am not sure if this is relevant, but I match Ari Lieberman, who is also FT96541 and listed as a descendant of The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman on ftDNA.

Would another FT96541 sample be of any use?

Private User
2/23/2022 at 9:07 AM

Private User You are doing important work in fine tuning the GENI tree, on which duplicates and mistaken identities frequently occur. First thing is to try to understand the situation: 1) it seems that Rabbi Zecharya Mendel Kalusziner/Klausner, of Krakow and The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman are referring to the same person since they both have a spouse named Yuta, a son 'Der Hoicher', and estimated deaths of 1672 and 1671, 2) the third profile, Zecharia Mendel ben Arye Leib of Cracow, auth. "Be'er Heitev" appears to be of a later generation than the first two (1640-1706), has a spouse who is bat Sirkes, and a mother named Yuta who is the same as the above, 3) the situation is made more complicated by the two Yutas, who could be the same person: Yehudit (Jute) Kloisner/Saba and Yuta Klausner (dau. rabbi Chaim Loew), Maharal niece the first is made the daughter of R' Ephraim haCohen Fischel and the second if the sister of the same R' Ephraim: Rabbi Ephraim Fischel, [of Lvov] ABD Lukow
I can only refer this to the curator of the above profiles for further elucidation: Yigal Burstein and Private User

As for the haplogroup, this is the same group as Mark and I wonder whether the Ari you match on FTDNA could be Mark's father? If so then we are looking at the same line.

Private User
2/23/2022 at 9:19 AM
Private User
2/23/2022 at 9:44 AM

Thank you, Private User. That makes sense re the duplicates. Although there is that confusion, these trees do seem fairly accurate and evidence-based.

Private User -- do you know of Ari?

Additionally, Private User, are there any other potential donors we know of for Dov Ber's lineage?

Private User
2/23/2022 at 10:21 AM

Hi to all,
Yea my father is Aron Lieberman also known as Ari,
Aaron,aharon etc
In previous above questions I gave my complete
DNA samples characters for my father up to Y-111
And big y700 plus full sequence mtdna,etc.
As well as my mother Cecelia Rothman
Who we believe is my father's 3rd cousin
From ungvar Ukraine now.
Also my mother brother is Stanley Rothman
I also did Big y700 ,mtdna,full sequence.
.klausner is my father's 1st cousin son yossi in Israel.
Who's traced back to Hinde katzenellenbogen
As well.
Regards, Mark

Private User
2/23/2022 at 10:47 AM

Many thanks, Private User. Greatly appreciated.

Am I correct in saying you can trace back to Rashi on The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman's wife Yuta Klausner (dau. rabbi Chaim Loew), Maharal niece's lineage?

This would mean that if The Prophet R' Aryeh Zachariah of Kracow Lieberman is an ancestor of Dov Ber, I could trace back to Rashi.

Private User
2/23/2022 at 12:37 PM

Private User There is a way to generate a list of potential donors on GENI: 1) visit the profile: Dov Ber 2) select the DNA tab, 3) then under Y-DNA, select 'View a List of Living People Who Can be Tested for YDNA...', 4) on the next page select 'View Tree' for each person and try to isolate the various sub-branches (usually each sub-branch is represented by various siblings or cousins on the list), 5) contact profile manager(s) for each of the identified sub-branches (opting for managers who appear to be part of the family rather than GENI bulk uploaders, since only the former will have access to family members for the testing), 6) explain the existence of a group project and refer to the project page, 7) be available to work with the family on setting things up.

Private User
2/23/2022 at 12:45 PM

I'm inviting Randy Schoenberg to have a look at the situation referred to in my post of 12:07 pm on 23 Feb 2022.

Private User
2/23/2022 at 1:31 PM

Private User, thanks for these detailed steps. I believe we will be able to get in touch with Ilya. If we do not then I will try and find other potential donors. I have emailed Ilya regarding the project.

I was wondering if I could trouble you with a question. 1. Is there a possibility that the analysis will be inconclusive and Ilya would have to upgrade to Y-700?

I realised today that if the analysis shows a MRCA ~1550, we only need to find 4 generations or so back. I think this is possible. The earliest ancestor we know is Rav Sheftel, Dov Ber's father, born ~1665.

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