The Rebbetzin Beila Babad (Katvan) - A source suggests Beila's mother was NOT Toiva

Started by Private User on Saturday, August 20, 2022
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Page 35 here: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/58066 (38 of the PDF) says that both of Rabbi David HaLevi (the Katvan) -'s daughters came from his first, unkown wife. That includes Rbzn. Beila Babad

It is a much younger source, so גזע תרשישים may carry more weight.

In any case, Rabbi David HaLevi (the Katvan) - had another wife. According to גזע תרשישים, this was the daughter of Rabbi Shimon Katz of Rappaport, whose Geni profile I could not find.

I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts. Private User, you may be interested.

Thanks Private User I won't interfere with this directly since there are many managers and curators on these profiles who are more attuned to the situation than I. What I find interesting in view of your reference is the Rabbi Shimon Katz Rappaport, ABD Jaslowiec who has a daughter (name unknown) who married a Davd HaLevi with no mention of Katvan Wife of R' David HaLevi I do not know now whether Rebbetzin Beilah Babad is the granddaughter of Shakh or instead through her grandmother Rachel HaKohen Rapaport may be the 3x ggd of Yosef HaCohen Katz, She'erit Yosef If it is the latter then Rebbetzin Beila would be a HaCohen-Katz descendant but from another line (unconnected to Shakh). On my own tree I am going to go with your earlier source and make her the 3x ggd of She'erit Yosef rather than the gd of Shakh..

Private User

I think the earlier source actually suggests she is related to the Shach.

Private User I misunderstand you then. Would you please detail the connection under the earlier source between Rebettzin Beila and R' Shakh? I'm not seeing how you determined that the Rabbi Shimon Katz of Rappaport who is the father of the unknown mother of Rebbetzin Beila, is connected to R' Shakh. Thanks.

Private User

The connection that the earlier source suggests is what is on Geni: Beila is the Shach’s granddaughter

Shach-> Tova -> Beila

The source is here: https://media.geni.com/p13/6e/42/9a/7a/5344483cb959c88b/kur46bek_or...

So גזע תרשישים says Shach>Tova>Beila and https://www.hebrewbooks.org/58066 says 'unknown first wife'>Beila. Meanwhile גזע תרשישים also says that David Katvan had a second wife who was the daughter of R' Shimon Katz of Rappaport. Does this accurately summarize your understanding of the information you have presented? If this is correct, then it seems that what is on GENI corresponds to the older (i.e. closer to the events described) source and is therefore presumably more reliable. However, even if that is the truth of the matter, then it could be that Wife of R' David HaLevi is the other wife mentioned in גזע תרשישים and therefore these two profiles may refer to the same person: R' David HaLevi and Rabbi David HaLevi (the Katvan) - That would seem to be the only improvement to the GENI tree suggested by the combined meaning of the two pieces of evidence.

Correct. Expect גזע תרשישים says Rabbi David HaLevi (the Katvan) -’s FIRST wife was the daughter of Shmuel Rappaport.

The other possible improvements to what is on Geni is that the sources state Yitzchack Babad had two wives, both daughters of David Katvan, one from wife 1, one from Tova. So we don’t know who the mothers of Yitzchak Babad’s children are*

*apart from Jacob. It says his mother was Beila.

Private User

I'm having trouble reconciling these two statements:

"In any case, Rabbi David HaLevi (the Katvan) - had another wife. According to גזע תרשישים, this was the daughter of Rabbi Shimon Katz of Rappaport,"

"גזע תרשישים says Rabbi David HaLevi (the Katvan) -’s FIRST wife was the daughter of Shmuel Rappaport."

Can you please clarify the name given to the father of the first wife in גזע תרשישים?

Please excuse me for not being able to locate this information in the original text.

Private User by “another wife” I meant in addition to what is on Geni.

I will translate from גזע תרשישים:

“Rabbi David Katvan’s first wife was the daughter of the genius Shimon Katz Rappaport ABD Yazavitz. His (David’s) second wife was Toiva, peace be upon her, who died ... (she was) the daughter of Shabti Katz, author of the Shach.

Shimon Katz’s daughter birthed to Rabbi David Katvan his daughter, who was the first wife of the genius Yitzchak Babadg ABD Brad. The daughter of the Shach (Toiva) birthed to Rabbi David Katvan his second daughter, the second wife of Yitzchak Babad, Rebetzin Beila. She was the mother of Jacob Babad. “

Let me know if this helps.

Private User

The information about Bella being the granddaughter of the Rappaport family and not the granddaughter of
HaRav Shabty Ashkenazi HaCohen Katz, the "SHaCH"
I saw it two years ago and I asked Naftali Vokstein about it, he told me to leave the situation as it is in Geni-
From what I understood from him, this is either a mistake or an invention, which was copied into other books... According to him, she is the granddaughter of the Shach, and he told me that The Kozker Reebe himself also said that he is a descendant of the Shach

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski that is good to hear. If we really want to we could probably verify this with mitochondrial DNA.

Nonetheless, what all the sfarim seem to agree on is that two of Rabbi David HaLevi (the Katvan) -’s daughters (one from daughter of Shimon Katz, other (Beila) from daughter of Shach) married Yitzchak Babad.

Therefore, we do not know who Yitzchak Babad’s children’s mothers were. There are two possibilities for each child, with the exception of Ya’akov.

1. Wife of R' David HaLevi’s daughter
2. Rbzn. Beila Babad

I am particularly interested in who Reitza’s mother was.

If anyone knows any sources which could help, that would be interesting.

Private User

Private User

If your question refers to

Rebbetzin Reitze Halpern
to the best of my knowledge, the information now appearing on Geni is correct

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski do you have a source for Admor Menachem Mendel Morgenstern, Kotzker Rebbe saying he desecnds from HaRav Shabty Ashkenazi HaCohen Katz, the "SHaCH"?

If so it is very exciting as it means Reitza’s mother was Beila, and Beila’s mother is Tova.

(Unless there is another lineage).

Private User

Regarding the dna test, I asked a cousin who lives in the United States to purchase the test for me, I'm not familiar with dna tests, but it's about the test that costs $100, I'm not sure that such a test shows connections so many generations back

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

Thanks

Do you have a source that proves Rebbetzin Reitze Halpern’s mother was Rbzn. Beila Babad?

If so this would prove my connection to the RMA.

Regarding DNA — I’m referring to mtDNA, which goes from mother to daughter, so goes back very far.

Private User

You can search the site

https://tablet.otzar.org/#/

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

Any specific book? She is not mentioned in כתבי הגר״י.

Private User

The site contains over 100,000 books, among the books there is also information about her

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski ok. If you happen to find anything please let me know. I will also search for her name.

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

I checked and I think she may be mentioned on page 330 in rebeinu moshe isserles. However, I do not have access.

If you have access, could you be so kind as to inform me whether there is any info on page 330? Thank you very much.

https://tablet.otzar.org/#/b/611331/p/330/t/1660831406832/fs/i25GXf...

Private User

For all the people who do not have a subscription to the site (and I am included in them), the information is only possible up to page 150, and there are books that are not accessible at all without a subscription...

But check carefully, her name appears in quite a few books... in any case, I trust the information of Naftali Wakstein (who is currently considered the number 1 expert in Israel and one of the best experts in the world, on rabbinical families and dynasties)

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

What did you search for?

I trust Wakstein too, but I would like to see some proof of these connections. Especially since this is my connection to the RMA.

Private User

You can write to him, I'm sure he has all the information

Haim Katz - Hachoen Wartski

Thanks.

I checked a book on the RMA by Asher Zvi and it corroborates all that is on Geni. It seems that what is on Geni is supported by the majority of the hebrew genealogical literature, so should remain.

Asher Ziv*

Private User

The information in this branch is correct, and I hope it is all protected with locked master profiles

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