Evidence needed to support Siegfried I the Dane, count of Guînes as child of Duke N.N. N.N. & N.N. N.N., and N.N. N.N. as daughter of Lothair II, king of Lotharingia.

One of the best sources for this family is Leah Shopkow's translation and commentary of Lambert d'Ardres' 12th -century chronicle of the Houses of Guines and Ardres [Lambert of Ardres, _The History of the Counts of Guines and Lords of Ardres_, ed. & trans. Leah Shopkow (U Penn Press, 2001)]

FMG only mentions one son, Ardolf. Documentation for other children needed.

--------------------

SIFRID or SIFROY, first Count of Guines trans. from Latin; Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand et de ..., Part 2; André Duchesne; 1631; p. 6, "Extract from the History of the Ancient Comtes de Guines, written by Lambert d'Ardes" (in the 12th century):

In 928, while Arnold the Great ruled Flanders, a man of noble spirit and general attractiveness, Sifridus, who because he served the king of Denmark for many years, is surnamed Dacus, was a warlike man, very energetic, and was a kinsman (“nepos et cognatus germanus”) of the King of Denmark and was, second only to the king, the most famous and renowned…. Descended from Walbert of Ponthieu the original leader of the people of Terouenne or Saint-Pol, and the Count of Ghisnes, and of his son Bertino. . On GEN-MEDIEVAL-L, Nat Taylor writes (30 May 2004): "And there's now a full annotated English translation: Lambert of Ardres, _The History of the Counts of Guines and Lords of Ardres_, ed. & trans. Leah Shopkow (Penn, 2001). One of the key texts of medieval genealogical historiography." NOTE: The first part is online on Google Books.

Genealogical chart has Siegfried (928-~966) m. Elftrude--> son Ardulf (966-~997) m. Matilda of Boulogne-->Ralph (c997-c1036) m. Rosella of Saint-Pol-->Eustace (1036-bef 1065) m. Susanna of Grammene-->Baldwin I (bef 1065-1091) m. Adele of Lorraine. 2 children: (1) Manasses (1091-1137) m. Emma of Tancarville-->Sylbil/Rose m. Henry of Bourbourg-->Beatrice m. 1st Albert "the Boar", 2nd Baldwin of Ardres (2) Gisele of Guines m. Winemar of Ghent-->Arnold I of Ghent (1142-1169) m. Matilda of Saint-Omer-->Baldwin II (1169-1206) m. Christine of Ardres-->Arnold II of Guines and V of Ardres m. Beatrice of Bourbourg

On GEN-MEDIEVAL-L, Stewart Baldwin (30 April 2003) wrote: “No reliable sources will be found confirming that Siegfried of Gunes was a grandson of "Harold V King of Denmark" (whoever that was), because the earliest source to give any significant information about Siegfried (The History of the counts of Gunes by Lambert of Ardres) was written more than two centuries later, and does not provide even a claimed parentage for him. That source stated that Siegfried came from the blood of count Walbert of Ponthieu, that he was "nepos et cognatus germanus" of the (unnamed) king of Denmark, and that Gunes belonged to him by hereditary right. These statements are introduced with events supposedly occurring in 928. Later, it states that the king of Denmark's brother, named Cnut, was "nepos et cognatus germanus" of Siegfried. These statements are only consistent with one another if "nepos et cognatus germanus" is interpreted as something vague like "relative" rather than something specific like "nephew". It has been plausibly suggested that this Cnut was based on an obscure king who minted coins at both York and Quentovic (the latter just a few miles from Gunes) about the year 900, but these early details provided by Lambert are legendary rather than historical. As tantalizing as these sources are, Siegfried's parentage is unknown.”

----------------------

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm#_Toc261249264

Chapter 4. COMTES de GUINES

The county of Guines was founded in 928 by the Viking Siegfried in the northern coastal part of the county of Boulogne, his descendants in the male line continuing to rule the county, according to the Historia Comitum Ghisnensium, until 1137. In the following decade, the county passed by marriage to the family of the Burggraafen of Gent who continued to rule there until the late 13th century.

The history of the family of the Comtes de Guines is recounted in the Historia Comitum Ghisnensium written at the end of the 12th century by Lambert of Ardres, whose family was closely related to Guines family[825]. The Historia is one of the few examples of a European primary source from this period which deals almost exclusively with a relatively obscure provincial noble family. The narrative concerning the earlier generations is full of apparent inaccuracies. Where comparison with other sources is possible, numerous inconsistencies can be observed, which does not raise the confidence level concerning other information contained in the Historia. Until the succession of Baudouin [I] Comte de Guines in the latter part of the 11th century, little of the information on the supposed early comtes de Guines can be corroborated. It should therefore be treated with considerable caution, although there is no indication whether the author of the Historia may have had access to other sources, which have since disappeared, for the earlier years.

A. COMTES de GUINES

Two supposed brothers. It is unlikely that they were historical figures. Their existence has not been confirmed by other primary sources apart from Historia Comitum Ghisnensium, the earlier parts of which are unreliable.

1. [WALBERT, son of --- . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Walbertus comes" specifying that he occupied "Pontivi comitatum et Sancti Pauli"[826]. m ---. The name of Walbert's wife is not known. Walbert & his wife had one child: a) BERTIN . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "filio suo [=Walberti comitis] Bertino"[827].]

2. [PHARUS . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "sanctus Pharo frater eiusdem Walberti" specifying that he was later "episcopus…Meldensis"[828].]

1. SIEGFRIED, son of --- (-[965]). The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Sifridus" specifying that he was of Danish origin and "de eiusdem Walberti cognatione progenitus"[829]. His precise relationship with Walbert has not been identified. He was installed as Comte de Guines in 928.

m ([960/65]%29 ELSTRUDE de Flandre, daughter of ARNOUL I Count of Flanders & his [second] wife Adela de Vermandois (-966[830] or after). The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "comes Balduinus sororem…Elstrudem" as wife of "Sifridus"[831]. The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "comes Balduinus sororem…Elstrudem" as wife of "Sifridus"[832]. According to the Chronica Monasterii Sancti Bertini, the couple were never married, their son Ardolf being illegitimate[833].

Comte Siegfried & his wife had one child:

a) ARDOLF de Guines (posthumously 966-). The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Ardolphus" as son of "Elstrudis", specifying that he was born posthumously[834]. Comte de Guines. "…Theoderico comite, Arnulfo comite, Artoldo comite, Baldwino comite, item Arnulfo comite…" signed the charter dated 1 Apr 988 under which "Baldwinus marchysus cum matre sua Susanna" donated "villam Aflingehem…jacentem in pago Tornacinse" to Saint-Pierre de Gand, after the death of "Arnulfi marchysi"[835]. The editor of the edition consulted suggests that "Artoldo comite" was Ardolf Comte de Guines. m MATHILDE de Boulogne, daughter of ERNICULE de Boulogne & his wife ---. The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Bolonie comitis Erniculi filiam Mathildem" as wife of "Ardolphus"[836].

Comte Ardolf & his wife had two children: i) RAOUL de Guines . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Radulphum et Rogerum" as the two sons of "comiti Ghisnensi Ardolpho" & his wife[837]. - see below. ii) ROGER de Guines . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Radulphum et Rogerum" as the two sons of "comiti Ghisnensi Ardolpho" & his wife, specifying that Roger, the younger, died "antequam pubescerat iuvenis"[838].

Sources

• [825] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium, MGH SS XXIV, p. 555.
• [826] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 3, MGH SS XXIV, p. 564.
• [827] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 3, MGH SS XXIV, p. 564.
• [828] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 6, MGH SS XXIV, p. 565.
• [829] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 7, MGH SS XXIV, p. 566.
• [830] When she gave birth to her husband's posthumous child.
• [831] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 11, MGH SS XXIV, p. 568.
• [832] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 11, MGH SS XXIV, p. 568.
• [833] Chronica Monasterii Sancti Bertini auctore Iohanne Longo de Ipra 27.2, MGH SS XXV, p. 776.
• [834] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 12, MGH SS XXIV, p. 568.
• [835] Liber traditionum sancti Petri Blandiniensis, 96, p. 92.
• [836] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 14, MGH SS XXIV, p. 569.
• [837] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 16, MGH SS XXIV, p. 570.
• [838] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 16, MGH SS XXIV, p. 570.

---------------------------

Cte Sifrid (Siegfried) "le Danois" (the Dane) DE GUÎNES 5664

Born: 935, Guisnes, Flanders, Belgium
Died: 970, Guisnes, Flanders, Belgium

Marriage Information: Sifrid married Elstrude (Elisende, Elftrude) DE GAND, daughter of Comte Arnolf (Arnulph) I "the Elder" DE FLANDRES et Artois and Adaele (Alice, Alix) DE VERMANDOIS. (Elstrude (Elisende, Elftrude) DE GAND was born in 939 in Flanders, Belgium and died in 970.) http://www.celtic-casimir.com/webtree/5/25562.htm

werk in uitvoering genealogieonline

One of the best sources for this family is Leah Shopkow's translation and commentary of Lambert d'Ardres' 12th -century chronicle of the Houses of Guines and Ardres [Lambert of Ardres, _The History of the Counts of Guines and Lords of Ardres_, ed. & trans. Leah Shopkow (U Penn Press, 2001)]

FMG only mentions one son, Ardolf. Documentation for other children needed.

--------------------

SIFRID or SIFROY, first Count of Guines trans. from Latin; Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d'Ardres, de Gand et de ..., Part 2; André Duchesne; 1631; p. 6, "Extract from the History of the Ancient Comtes de Guines, written by Lambert d'Ardes" (in the 12th century):

In 928, while Arnold the Great ruled Flanders, a man of noble spirit and general attractiveness, Sifridus, who because he served the king of Denmark for many years, is surnamed Dacus, was a warlike man, very energetic, and was a kinsman (“nepos et cognatus germanus”) of the King of Denmark and was, second only to the king, the most famous and renowned…. Descended from Walbert of Ponthieu the original leader of the people of Terouenne or Saint-Pol, and the Count of Ghisnes, and of his son Bertino. . On GEN-MEDIEVAL-L, Nat Taylor writes (30 May 2004): "And there's now a full annotated English translation: Lambert of Ardres, _The History of the Counts of Guines and Lords of Ardres_, ed. & trans. Leah Shopkow (Penn, 2001). One of the key texts of medieval genealogical historiography." NOTE: The first part is online on Google Books.

Genealogical chart has Siegfried (928-~966) m. Elftrude--> son Ardulf (966-~997) m. Matilda of Boulogne-->Ralph (c997-c1036) m. Rosella of Saint-Pol-->Eustace (1036-bef 1065) m. Susanna of Grammene-->Baldwin I (bef 1065-1091) m. Adele of Lorraine. 2 children: (1) Manasses (1091-1137) m. Emma of Tancarville-->Sylbil/Rose m. Henry of Bourbourg-->Beatrice m. 1st Albert "the Boar", 2nd Baldwin of Ardres (2) Gisele of Guines m. Winemar of Ghent-->Arnold I of Ghent (1142-1169) m. Matilda of Saint-Omer-->Baldwin II (1169-1206) m. Christine of Ardres-->Arnold II of Guines and V of Ardres m. Beatrice of Bourbourg

On GEN-MEDIEVAL-L, Stewart Baldwin (30 April 2003) wrote: “No reliable sources will be found confirming that Siegfried of Gunes was a grandson of "Harold V King of Denmark" (whoever that was), because the earliest source to give any significant information about Siegfried (The History of the counts of Gunes by Lambert of Ardres) was written more than two denturies later, and does not provide even a claimed parentage for him. That source stated that Siegfried came from the blood of count Walbert of Ponthieu, that he was "nepos et cognatus germanus" of the (unnamed) king of Denmark, and that Gunes belonged to him by hereditary right. These statements are introduced with events supposedly occurring in 928. Later, it states that the king of Denmark's brother, named Cnut, was "nepos et cognatus germanus" of Siegfried. These statements are only consistent with one another if "nepos et cognatus germanus" is interpreted as something vague like "relative" rather than something specific like "nephew". It has been plausibly suggested that this Cnut was based on an obscure king who minted coins at both York and Quentovic (the latter just a few miles from Gunes) about the year 900, but these early details provided by Lambert are legendary rather than historical. As tantalizing as these sources are, Siegfried's parentage is unknown.”

----------------------

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORTHERN%20FRANCE.htm#_Toc261249264

Chapter 4. COMTES de GUINES

The county of Guines was founded in 928 by the Viking Siegfried in the northern coastal part of the county of Boulogne, his descendants in the male line continuing to rule the county, according to the Historia Comitum Ghisnensium, until 1137. In the following decade, the county passed by marriage to the family of the Burggraafen of Gent who continued to rule there until the late 13th century.

The history of the family of the Comtes de Guines is recounted in the Historia Comitum Ghisnensium written at the end of the 12th century by Lambert of Ardres, whose family was closely related to Guines family[825]. The Historia is one of the few examples of a European primary source from this period which deals almost exclusively with a relatively obscure provincial noble family. The narrative concerning the earlier generations is full of apparent inaccuracies. Where comparison with other sources is possible, numerous inconsistencies can be observed, which does not raise the confidence level concerning other information contained in the Historia. Until the succession of Baudouin [I] Comte de Guines in the latter part of the 11th century, little of the information on the supposed early comtes de Guines can be corroborated. It should therefore be treated with considerable caution, although there is no indication whether the author of the Historia may have had access to other sources, which have since disappeared, for the earlier years.

A. COMTES de GUINES

Two supposed brothers. It is unlikely that they were historical figures. Their existence has not been confirmed by other primary sources apart from Historia Comitum Ghisnensium, the earlier parts of which are unreliable.

1. [WALBERT, son of --- . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Walbertus comes" specifying that he occupied "Pontivi comitatum et Sancti Pauli"[826]. m ---. The name of Walbert's wife is not known. Walbert & his wife had one child: a) BERTIN . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "filio suo [=Walberti comitis] Bertino"[827].]

2. [PHARUS . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "sanctus Pharo frater eiusdem Walberti" specifying that he was later "episcopus…Meldensis"[828].]

1. SIEGFRIED, son of --- (-[965]). The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Sifridus" specifying that he was of Danish origin and "de eiusdem Walberti cognatione progenitus"[829]. His precise relationship with Walbert has not been identified. He was installed as Comte de Guines in 928.

m ([960/65]%29 ELSTRUDE de Flandre, daughter of ARNOUL I Count of Flanders & his [second] wife Adela de Vermandois (-966[830] or after). The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "comes Balduinus sororem…Elstrudem" as wife of "Sifridus"[831]. The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "comes Balduinus sororem…Elstrudem" as wife of "Sifridus"[832]. According to the Chronica Monasterii Sancti Bertini, the couple were never married, their son Ardolf being illegitimate[833].

Comte Siegfried & his wife had one child:

a) ARDOLF de Guines (posthumously 966-). The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Ardolphus" as son of "Elstrudis", specifying that he was born posthumously[834]. Comte de Guines. "…Theoderico comite, Arnulfo comite, Artoldo comite, Baldwino comite, item Arnulfo comite…" signed the charter dated 1 Apr 988 under which "Baldwinus marchysus cum matre sua Susanna" donated "villam Aflingehem…jacentem in pago Tornacinse" to Saint-Pierre de Gand, after the death of "Arnulfi marchysi"[835]. The editor of the edition consulted suggests that "Artoldo comite" was Ardolf Comte de Guines. m MATHILDE de Boulogne, daughter of ERNICULE de Boulogne & his wife ---. The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Bolonie comitis Erniculi filiam Mathildem" as wife of "Ardolphus"[836].

Comte Ardolf & his wife had two children: i) RAOUL de Guines . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Radulphum et Rogerum" as the two sons of "comiti Ghisnensi Ardolpho" & his wife[837]. - see below. ii) ROGER de Guines . The Historia Comitum Ghisnensium names "Radulphum et Rogerum" as the two sons of "comiti Ghisnensi Ardolpho" & his wife, specifying that Roger, the younger, died "antequam pubescerat iuvenis"[838].

Sources

• [825] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium, MGH SS XXIV, p. 555.
• [826] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 3, MGH SS XXIV, p. 564.
• [827] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 3, MGH SS XXIV, p. 564.
• [828] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 6, MGH SS XXIV, p. 565.
• [829] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 7, MGH SS XXIV, p. 566.
• [830] When she gave birth to her husband's posthumous child.
• [831] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 11, MGH SS XXIV, p. 568.
• [832] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 11, MGH SS XXIV, p. 568.
• [833] Chronica Monasterii Sancti Bertini auctore Iohanne Longo de Ipra 27.2, MGH SS XXV, p. 776.
• [834] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 12, MGH SS XXIV, p. 568.
• [835] Liber traditionum sancti Petri Blandiniensis, 96, p. 92.
• [836] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 14, MGH SS XXIV, p. 569.
• [837] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 16, MGH SS XXIV, p. 570.
• [838] Historia Comitum Ghisnensium 16, MGH SS XXIV, p. 570.

---------------------------

Cte Sifrid (Siegfried) "le Danois" (the Dane) DE GUÎNES 5664

Born: 935, Guisnes, Flanders, Belgium
Died: 970, Guisnes, Flanders, Belgium

Marriage Information: Sifrid married Elstrude (Elisende, Elftrude) DE GAND, daughter of Comte Arnolf (Arnulph) I "the Elder" DE FLANDRES et Artois and Adaele (Alice, Alix) DE VERMANDOIS. (Elstrude (Elisende, Elftrude) DE GAND was born in 939 in Flanders, Belgium and died in 970.) http://www.celtic-casimir.com/webtree/5/25562.htm

werk in uitvoering genealogieonline