Biblical Places ?

To add to this:

The tropical islands of the Pacific Ocean, are still referred to as "Paradise", to this day. However, this situation is true for most tropical (equatorial) islands. In contrast, tropical continental areas seem to be more jungle than paradise.

So today, a paradise in the East, would (? still) refer to the tropical islands of the Pacific.

It is possible that there are undersea remains of the rivers of the Garden of Eden, and also possible that rivers such as the Tigris and the Euphrates were named after 2 of the branches of the river that flowed from Eden that split into 4 parts. Such naming is common even today, for example New York in America is named after York in Britain - so e.g. if Britain and some historical records were destroyed, then many years later, the remaining New York could be confused with York

You just started such a discussion right here.

But what would be the PURPOSE of such a discussion?

Specifically, it is rather clear, to me at least, that the Garden of Eden, is more a metaphysical place, than an actual location. It is a state of reality that no longer exists.

Yes, my opinion is also that it no longer exists. However I think that it did literally exist at some stage, since its literal direction was given as in the East.

The question is how far East? Mesopotamia or further?

The purpose is because of historical and biblical curiosity and an attempt to reconcile secular and biblical. Current secular history claims that Africa is the birthplace of mankind, contrasting with the Bible which states that it is further East.

One model to reconcile the two views, it that that Africa was populated from the East (that is now under water) when the continents were joined. The route out of Eden could be via the Gulf of Aden (Yemen) and then perhaps into Africa? Then from Africa to the Middle East which is the root of modern civilization.

The Out-of-Africa theory has recently begun to shift a bit:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12/nubian-complex-in-southern-ara...

The suggestion is that humans evolved in Africa, but modern humans spread from Arabia.

Very interesting, Justin. I still have to read the article in more detail, but from a quick scan, it does place these early finds in the (? aptly named) Gulf of Aden / Eden.

In the original single continent Pangaea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangaea), to the East of this area would have been an open ocean (to later become the Pacific, since the Indian ocean would have developed between Africa and India, as India split from Africa and crashed into Asia). The question therefore, is whether this was always ocean?

The earth was "divided" only in the days of Peleg (Genesis 10:25).

Though I guess there is much debate on whether "divided" refers to the continental divide and/or a division amongst peoples and/or languages.

Could Genesis 10:25 ("the earth was divided during [Peleg's] life") be a reference to the breakup of the continents discovered by scientists? Might this explain some of the facts about the flood?

http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/index.php?option=com_custom_...

Here's are two more little pieces.

Diving into Noah's Flood: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/01/diving-into-noahs-flood.html

Womb of Nations: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12/womb-of-nations-how-west-euras...

Lester,
it would be completely IMPOSSIBLE for the break-up of Pangean (or ANY continent) to have happened within human history. The amount of energy and motion required would make it impossible to survive. One of the most active faults in the world is the East African Rift, which is splitting off the west tip of Africa (widening the Gulf of Eden, coincidentally). Well it is moving about one whole CENTIMETER per year. When continents move even that much, you have huge amounts of ... earthquakes and volcanoes.

You are talking about continents moving half way around the world in no time at all. Any theory that tries to make such claims, is wishful thinking or new-age nonsense.

Shmuel,

Yes, I agree that some things (including the quick splitting of the continents) are apparently impossible when viewed from current scientific perspective.

I disagree however about what is really impossible or not. Particularly since this is a biblically related discussion, so a number of things are now considered possible that are otherwise impossible. For example, the sun standing still for a whole "day" in Joshua 10:13, Sarah becomming pregnant at a very old age Genesis 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD?

So I don't think the secular and biblically cannot be perfectly reconciled. However when there are a number of remarkable "coincidences" between the secular and the biblical, then it is something to think about.

The secular itself is not absolute, since the scientific view of the ancient past is based on extrapolations and any extrapolation makes certain assumptions first. Secular science has its own bias, particularly when extrapolating into the past of future. Similar the biblical perspective has its own bias, based on belief. Which one, if any, is true, is a matter for debate that will not be resolved. I am not interested in such debate.

My own acknowledged bias is as a creationist, certainly not a new-ager. Whilst there appears to be scientific evidence also supporting the biblical creation timeline such as the rings caused by radioactive polonium (3 minute half life) decay in granite (see e.g. http://www.ichthus.info/Creation-Evidence/Polonium-Halos/intro.html) ;polystrate fossil trees ect - that is not really my interest neither does it form part of this argument.

It is first to point out the many remarkable "coincidences" between the secular and the biblical, and the biblical and other ancient religious traditions. To then raise the question as to whether this is more than coincidence, without necessarily reconciling the various perspectives. To then allow each person to draw their own conclusions, informed by the awareness of these apparent coincidences.

Correction of earlier typo (Geni unfortunately does not allow for correction of posts):

"So I don't think the secular and biblically CANNOT be perfectly reconciled." should instead have read "So I don't think the secular and biblically CAN be perfectly reconciled."

The Biblical Garden of Eden ... I believed is in the Ocean of the Pacific or in particular ... in the South China Sea. The clue in tracing it is the gotherwood lumber used by Noah in building the Ark. If we can agree that the holy bible is correct in stating that the water really covered most of the earth's surface during the flood ... then the civilization in the Middle East and Africa just started after the flood when the Ark was shipwrecked atop of the ancient Mt. Ararat now known as Mt. Elburz in Iran in about 2460 BC.

To be specific, the Garden of Eden is in the sunken valley near El Nido in the Island of Palawan in the South China Sea of the Pacific Ocean and in the territorial economic zone of the Philippines. And to fully understand the story let us review the following article:

Palawan safest, no earthquake faults

RP Fault Zone one of world’s longest at 1,200 km
By Alcuin Papa
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 23:50:00 01/16/2010

APART from the profusion of spectacular landscapes and seascapes that has made it the favorite of many travelers, it would seem that the paradise island of Palawan also offers the safest haven for those fearful of a Haiti-like tremor occurring in the country.

Compared to other parts of the Philippines, Palawan is relatively stable geologically, according to Mahar Lagmay, a professor of the University of the Philippines National Institute of Geological Sciences (UP-NIGS).

There are hardly any earthquakes in Palawan and certainly none strong enough to cause major damage. The whole island is probably the most stable area of land in the country, Lagmay said.

An expert on earthquake faults, Lagmay has constructed a map of earthquake epicenters which he plotted using information from the United States Geological Survey (USGS) from 1929 to 2009.

Lagmay said there were hardly any active faults under the island compared to the rest of the country. (A fault or fault line is a fracture in the rock within the earth's crust that is the causal location of most earthquakes.)

Continental, not oceanic, rock

While Palawan does have fault lines, these are old and experts are still debating whether these fault lines are active or not, Lagmay said.

For instance, there is an ongoing and heated debate on whether the Ulugan Bay fault near the famed Palawan Underground River is active, Lagmay said.

Lagmay believes Palawan is stable largely because the island was once part of continental Asia which separated around 100 million years ago and drifted toward the Philippines.

The rock of the island is continental and different from other parts of the country, which is made of oceanic rock, he said.

Hence, the crust of the island is thicker at 30 kilometers, compared to the oceanic rocks 12 km, having derived from the Pacific seabed.

The crust of the island is thicker and older and, therefore, not as prone to earthquakes, said Lagmay.

No major faults

The island is also not bordered by any major trench or fault line, he said.

The South China Sea area is more stable tectonically. Combined with the continental material, there is little chance for the development of active faults in Palawan, he said.

Also, the movement of the ground in the South China Sea is not as fast as the eastern side of Luzon, which is moving toward the Asian mainland at the rate of 7 centimeters a year, and the eastern side of Mindanao, which is moving toward the Asian mainland at 10 cm a year.

Because of the slow movement, there is no compression of forces in the island, Lagmay said.

If we believe that the Book of Enoch is a real one as what Prophet Mohammad quoted in the Qur'an and by Prophet Isaiah in the Bible ...and then... If we review all its contents describing the Paradise ... then this is El Nido in reality !!!

Andrei,

Regarding your comment: "The clue in tracing it is the gotherwood lumber used by Noah in building the Ark. ". Could you please provide more information on why you think this "gopher wood" comes from this island, Palawan?

Regarding Mount Ararat - the bible record refers to the "Mountains of Ararat", so this is not necessary Mount Ararat itself, but could also refer to nearby mountains. The naming of what is know as Mount Ararat today is apparently a more recent event, apparently done by Marco Polo.

Genesis 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

Andrei,

Of the books of Enoch, that I have read, the only one that appears close to authentic (in my opinion) is Enoch 1 that is included in the Ethiopian bible. I will read it again, regarding the Garden of Eden.

Having read parts of the Quran, and also given that it is a very recent (~600AD) book, I am very sceptical about the accuracy of its historical quotes and reliability of any new information that it presents.

I am interested however, in Jewish opinion regarding the books of Enoch, and in particular Enoch 1 from the Ethiopian bible.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-S...

Gopherwood/Yellowwood Tree: http://www.arthursclipart.org/trees/trees/page_07.htm

Lester Ryan John The books of Enoch according to Jewish Opinion are incorporated it seems into the Kabbalaha, or that is what it appears to me.

Here are two seemingly valid sources: One to explore online, the other one has an ongoing virtual study group on the Book of Enoch. Plus a sample from the first site.

1.http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0011_...

2. http://www.koshertorah.com/ (on going virtual classes of the Book of Enoch)

Esoteric Literature: the Heikhalot, the Ma'aseh Bereshit, and the Literature of Magic -

*Metatron (sar ha-panim, "the prince of the Presence") – who is none other than Enoch himself after his flesh had been transformed into "flaming torches" – and the place assigned to him above all the other angels.

Of great importance are the texts entitled Heikhalot Rabbati, whose main speaker is R. Ishmael; Heikha lot Zutrati, whose main speaker is R. Akiva; and the Sefer Heikhalot, which has been published under the name of the Third Book of Enoch or the Hebrew Enoch.

The traditions assembled here are not all of the same kind, and they indicate different tendencies among the mystics. We find here extremely detailed descriptions of the world of the Chariot, of the ecstatic ascent to that world, and of the technique used to accomplish this ascent.

As in non-Jewish Gnostic literature, there is a magical and theurgic aspect to the technique of ascent, and there are very strong connections between Merkabah literature and Hebrew and Aramaic theurgic literature from both this and the geonic period.

The earliest stratum of the heikhalot strongly emphasizes this magical side, which in the practical application of its teachings is linked to the attainment of the "contemplation of the Chariot." It is very similar to a number of important texts preserved among the Greek magic papyri and to Gnostic literature of the Pistis Sophia type which originated in the second or third century C.E.

The heikhalot books mentioned above refer to historical figures, whose connection with the mysteries of the Chariot is attested by Talmud and Midrash.

On the other hand, there also existed early sources containing traditions attributed to various tannaim and amoraim; as some of them are almost or completely unknown, there would have been no point in appending their names to pseudepigraphical writings.

In the Cairo Genizah a few fragments of a tannaitic Midrash on the Chariot were discovered (Ms. Sassoon 522), and the short fourth-century text Re'iyyot Yeḥezkel belongs to the same category. It could be inferred from this that the mystics did not always try to conceal their identities, although in most cases they were inclined to do so.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0011_...

-------

There was no fixed angelology, and different views, and indeed complete systems, have been preserved, ranging from those found in the Ethiopic Book of Enoch to the Hebrew Enoch found among the literature of the heikhalot.

These ideas occupy a considerable place in the extant Merkabah literature, and, as would be expected, they reappear in various forms of a practical nature in incantations and theurgical literature.

Knowledge of the names of the angels was already part of the mysticism of the Essenes, and it developed in both rabbinic and heterodox circles up to the end of the geonic period. Together with the concept of the four or seven key angels, there developed (about the end of the first or the beginning of the second century) a new doctrine concerning the angel *Metatron (sar ha-panim, "the prince of the Presence") – who is none other than Enoch himself after his flesh had been transformed into "flaming torches" – and the place assigned to him above all the other angels.

There are some sources which contain little or no reference to this subject or to other views associated with it (e.g., concerning the angel *Sandalfon), while others like the Hebrew Enoch (ed. H. Odeberg, 1928), dwell on it at length.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0011_...

http://www.koshertorah.com/ (on going virtual classes of the Book of Enoch)

Well, the gopherwood until this time is not yet known as any tree that grows in the middle east coz it is lumber with silica contents why it is now petrified. So it means that the ark made by Noah not in the middle east. Just imagine the number of days of flooding and storms forcing the ark to navigate thousands of miles until it rested atop of Ararat and finally on June 24, 2006 discovered ...

This article was first published in the July 2006 ABR Electronic Newsletter.

And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. – Genesis 11:1–2 (KJV)

The Media Blitz
Since mid-June, 2006 there has been a flurry of reports in the media and on the Internet about the possible discovery of Noah's Ark on a mountain in northern Iran. Robert ("Bob") Cornuke, who has previously claimed to have found such notable things as the true Mount Sinai, the place of Paul's shipwreck off the coast of Malta, and the location of the Ark of the Covenant, has now focused on what is perhaps the biggest target of all, both literally and figuratively – Noah's Ark.

In brief, on a mountain known locally as Takht-e Suleiman in the Alborz (also spelled Elborz or Elburz) range of northern Iran, Cornuke and his team found an "unusual object" at the 13,120-foot elevation which is currently (7/16/06) described on his website (http://www.baseinstitute.org/noah.html) as "dark rock with an uncanny beam-like appearance in several places," having a texture and color unique to the area, and of the approximate dimensions of Noah's Ark. Cornuke adds that some samples were tested by an independent lab and "showed signs of petrified wood," though what those signs were has not yet been announced, and these signs evidently did not apply to the entire object. There was additionally a second finding of wood near the summit that may be from a shrine, reportedly dated to 500 years old.

Cornuke says he is not making outright claims that his Iranian find IS the Ark. In the current information posted on his website he notes, "I have been careful to position all comments that I am not claiming to conclusively to have found the ark." That demonstrates what I think is appropriate restraint. It is far improved from what characterized the initial press barrage and commentary. For example, on June 14 a man named Bill Wilson apparently jumped the gun on the "official" announcement and opined on the watch.org website, "Cornuke found what is believed to be Noah's Ark, nearly intact." That posting was subsequently pulled, but as this is written a copy of that first message can still be found at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1649864/posts. Brannon Howse, apparently the primary publicity agent for the find, chose to title his web report at http://www.arkfever.com, "Noah's Ark? For Real." In it he quoted one team member, Arch Bonnema, as saying, "These beams not only look like petrified wood, they are so impressive that they look like real wood – this is an amazing discovery that may be the oldest shipwreck in recorded history." So effective was the promotional push that, as Howse notes, it even got Cornuke on Fox News Channel with John Kasich, Good Morning America, and The Michael Reagan Show. Other media sources soon picked up the story, which was widely distributed. A typical report on this discovery is that from WorldNetDaily, online at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50857. Among the things noted there was, "With the discovery of wood splinters and broken pottery at the remote 15,300-foot level, the team says it also found evidence that ancients considered it an important worship site for hundreds, if not thousands of years." It seems clear that the conclusion one is expected to draw from that statement is that the site was important due to the presence of Noah's Ark.

In short, though there was a great deal of initial hyperbole surrounding the find, Cornuke and his team have since toned down the rhetoric. Not entirely, however; as this is written, the heading of the photo section of his website (http://www.baseinstitute.org/noaharkpics1.html) still reads, "Photos from the PROBABLE site of Noah's Ark" (my emphasis). "Possible" would be a much more appropriate word! Since I have a cynical streak when it comes to marketing, I also remain a bit disturbed by the thought that the initial sensationalism was a calculated step to garner widespread free publicity, giving the story the kind of high profile which opens doors for speaking opportunities and selling future books and videos, despite a lack of really persuasive evidence that would stand the tests of time and skeptical analysis. But only God and Cornuke and his team know for sure.

Evidence for an Iranian Location
Let's lay the groundwork for this study by first noting Cornuke's six primary reasons for putting forth his find as possibly being Noah's Ark on an Iranian mountain. As his website presents them, they are:

1. Ararat refers to a region of mountains, not just a single mountain.
2. Ararat is east of Shinar (Babylon).
3. Ararat is east of Lake Urmiah (also spelled Urmia) in Iran.
4. Other ancient writers put the Ark in Iran.
5. A British explorer in 1894, and an American soldier in 1943, confirm local Iranians believed the Ark landed on Takht-i-Suleiman (east of Lake Urmiah); the British explorer claimed to see a wooden shrine, and the American soldier claimed to see the Ark.
6. BASE Teams in 2005 and 2006 find possible evidence of the shrine and the Ark on Takht-i-Suleiman.

In the highest form of wisdom in sourcing knowledge ... we can form the word EDEN in the name of El Nido ... and the meaning of El Nido is THE NEST !!! the nest of humankind !!! Then in the island of Matinloc of El Nido you can find the Shrine of the New Jerusalem located by a male mystic from France in 1984. The New Jerusalem mentioned in the Apocalypse is actually the long Lost Eden ... the Paradise... and its aura are all still there in El Nido including the Cave of Treasures. Mankind will finally do their reunions in EL NIDO in the soonest time. As God is now giving the Philippines all calamities but except El Nido and Palawan.

Malka,

Interesting information on the books of Enoch, although I must admit the mystical texts are not for me.

Text from the Ethiopian Book of Enoch, is one of the very few extra-Tanakh references in the New Testament (Jude 1:14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,").

Aside from ongoing interpretative controversies, the New Testament defers almost completely to the Hebrew Tanakh for historical information. So subsequent Christian tradition that may add different historical information, particularly post-Romanisation after Emperor Constantine adopted Christianity, is most likely influenced by Greek and Roman traditions.

Lester Ryan John Do you have a link for the Ethiopian Book of Enoch. I have never read any Enoch literature ever.

Malka,

There seems to be quite a few online copies (see e.g. http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/enoch.pdf or http://www.forbiddengate.com/BookOfEnoch.pdf), as well as a wikipedia writeup at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

I've scanned the interesting wikipedia article, and do agree also to my reading, there seemed to be some NT compatibility, and especially noticed some stylistic similarity with the NT book of Revelation. What was unfamiliar was the extensive practice of naming angels, as in both the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, only two angels (Michael, Gabriel) are ever mentioned by name.

Regarding the wikipedia comments on Church Fathers; I can't really comment on them since I'm not familiar with their writings. I admittedly am sceptical about those who were contemporary with Constantine the Great's Councils of Nicea (~AD300; that seemed to have legislatively merged apostolic Christian with a number of Roman pagan traditions), however I'm not sure about the immediately post-apostolic group (i.e. 70AD+)

Andrei,

I've managed to find the garden of Eden reference in Chapter 24 of the Ethiopic Book of Enoch.

Lester Ryan John Thank you for those links, I will definitely check them out. By the way, is the Enoch in this discussion? Enosh .

Malka,

No, this is Enoch http://www.geni.com/people/Enoch-%D7%97%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%9A-%D8%A5%D8... was the great-great-grandson of Enosh, and the father of Methuselah

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0105.htm#24

Enoch / Idris
Enoch .

Enoch next married Edna, daughter of Daniel.
died: -3006 or -3013

Enoch is one of the main two focal points for much of the 1st millennium BC Jewish mysticism, notably in the Book of Enoch.

In Islam, he is usually referred to as Idris (إدريس), and regarded as a prophet.

Additionally, Enoch is important in some Christian denominations: he features in the Latter Day Saint Movement, and is commemorated as one of the Holy Forefathers in the Calendar of Saints of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

---------------------------------

The prevailing view regarding Enoch was that of Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, which thought of Enoch as a pious man, taken to Heaven, and receiving the title of Safra rabba (Great scribe).

The Jewish view of Enoch was he was the only pious man of his time and was taken away before he would become corrupted, Rashi, and Ibn Ezra, Enoch was held to frequently lapse in his piety, and thus removed before his time, by a divine plague, in order to avoid further lapses.

In the Sefer Hekalot, Rabbi Ishmael is described as having visited the 7th Heaven, where he meets Enoch, who claims that earth had, in his time, been corrupted by the demons Shammazai, and Azael, and so Enoch was taken to Heaven to prove that God was not cruel.

Similar traditions are recorded in Ecclesiasticus. Later elaborations of this interpretation treated Enoch as having been a pious ascetic, who, called to remix with others, preached repentance, and gathered (despite the fewness of people on the earth) a vast collection of disciples, to the extent that he was proclaimed king. Under his wisdom, peace is said to have reigned on earth, to the extent that he is summoned to Heaven to rule over the sons of God. In a parallel with Elijah, in sight of a vast crowd begging him to stay, he ascends to Heaven on a horse.

Regarding him as a man of truth and a prophet, as well as a model of patience; popular Muslim traditions credit Idris/Enoch as inventor of astronomy, writing, and arithmetic.

Enoch is often described as having been compelled to defend his life with the sword, against the depraved children of earth. Among his lesser inventions, in popular Muslim tradition, were said to be scales, to enable just weights, and tailoring.

Among the Latter Day Saint movement and particularly in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Enoch is viewed as having founded an exceptionally righteous city, named Zion, in the midst of an otherwise wicked world.

Not only Enoch, but the entire peoples of the city of Zion, were taken to Heaven without death, because of their piety. (Zion is defined as "the pure in heart" and this city of Zion will return to the earth at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.).

The Doctrine and Covenants further states that Enoch prophesied that one of his descendants, Noah, and his family, would survive a Great Flood and thus carry on the human race and preserve the Gospel.

The book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price has several chapters that give an account of Enoch's preaching, visions and conversations with God. In these same chapters are details concerning the wars, violence and natural disasters in Enoch's day, and notable miracles performed by Enoch.

These recount how Enoch is taken up to Heaven and is appointed guardian of all the celestial treasures, chief of the archangels, and the immediate attendant on God's throne. He is subsequently taught all secrets and mysteries and, with all the angels at his back, fulfills of his own accord whatever comes out of the mouth of God, executing His decrees.

Enoch was also seen as the inventor of writing, and teacher of astronomy and arithmetics, all three reflecting the interpretation of his name as meaning initiated.

Much esoteric literature like the 3rd Book of Enoch identifies Enoch as the Metatron, the angel which communicates God's word.

In consequence, Enoch was seen, by this literature, and the ancient kabbalah of Jewish mysticism, as having been the one which communicated God's revelation to Moses, in particular, the dictator of the Book of Jubilees.

The Geni Enoch profile section includes much more, plus all the Verses from the Bible that refer to Enoch . . .

Karen,

Is the Yellow-wood tree the same as the Gopher-wood in Genesis? Given the size of this tree, I can see how it could have been used for a very large ark - but are there more specific reasons for matching the modern day yellow-wood to the ancient gopher wood?

The Books of the Secret of prophet Enoch were actually the first Bible older than the Torah, Qur'an and even the Christian Bible. Those books were one of the cargoes of the ark of Noah from Eden towards Ararat. Translations of these are now varying according to beliefs and religion but essentially still related to the original. This is the key to the New Jerusalem.