Joseph / יוסף הצדיק - Was Joseph the same person as the Egyptian Imhotep?

Is Imhotep, the "almost-deified" vizier of Pharaoh Djoser (~3rd Dynasty Zhoser) who lived to 110 years old, the same *exact* person as Yehosef (described in the Pentateuch)?

No one knows via empirical evidence...but research continues.

Expanding upon my prior theme of "be careful of literal interpretation based upon flawed translations", I'd like to point out a few holes in this proposition for the author to sort out.

Firstly, "Djoser" is a latinized translation of egyptian heiroglyphics which lack vowels. The closest pronunciation of the heiroglyphs is "Zhsr" I pronounce it as "Zhawser" - a bit different from "Djoser".

Secondly, Yosef was the 11th son of Yakob and Rachel. The Pentateuch offers two explanations of name "Yosef": first it is compared to the word asaf from the root /'sp/, "taken away": "And she conceived, and bare a son; and said, God hath taken away my reproach"; Yosef is then identified with the similar root /ysp/, meaning "add":"And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son." In Hebrew, the name יוֹסֵף (Yosef) means "he will add" - a reference to storing grains in the silos to avoid famine. But keep in mind that the vowelization of yud-samech-pey can only be attributed to the vowelization of the Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex - we have no extant texts to tell us which vowels were used...it could just as easily be pronounced "Yahw-saf" which would be more in line with him being a Yahwist.

The name "Imhotep" is the translation of the original papyri are done by European researchers who added vowels and consonants depending upon nationality, while still others have attempted to spell "Joseph" rather than "Yusuf, Yosef, or Yehosef using egyptian heiroglyphs - just like an egyptian street vender might spell an english name...it's cute but highly inaccurate.

Thirdly, Djoser was Pharaoh - not Imhotep - Imhotep was vizier to Pharaoh Zhawser (Djoser).

The Pyramid of Djoser (Zhawser), or step pyramid (kbhw-ntrw in Egyptian) is in the Saqqara necropolis located just south of Cairo, Egypt, northwest of the city of Memphis. It was built during the 27th century BC for the burial of Pharaoh Djoser by Im'hyothef, his vizier. It is the central feature of a vast mortuary complex in an enormous courtyard surrounded by ceremonial structures and decoration.

Talmud Bavli tells us of challenges put forth to Pharaoh, by his high priests, concerning the former slave, Yosef:

Rabbi Hiyya ben Abba said in the name of Rabbi Johanan: "At the moment when Pharaoh said to Yosef, And without thee shall no man lift up his hand, Pharaoh's astrologers exclaimed: 'Wilt thou set in power over us a slave whom his master bought for twenty pieces of silver!' He replied to them, 'discern in him royal characteristics.' They said to him, 'in that case he must be acquainted with the seventy languages.' Angel Gabriel (a teacher) came and taught [Yosef] the seventy languages, but he could not learn them. Thereupon [Gabriel] added to his name a letter from the Name of the Holy One, blessed be He, and he learnt [the languages]..." (Sotah 36b)

According to the Talmudic passage, Joseph received two things from the angel Gabriel -- mastery over seventy languages, and an additional letter to his name. Both of these ideas are based on exegesis of a verse in Psalms:

Sing aloud to God our strength; make a joyful noise to the God of Jacob. Raise a song, and beat the tambourine, the sweet lyre with the harp. Blow a shofar on the New Moon ... For this is a statute for Israel, an ordinance of the God of Jacob. This he ordained in Yehosef (Joseph) for a testimony, when he went out over the land of Egypt. I heard a language I had not known. I removed the burden from his shoulder ... You called in trouble, and I saved you; I answered you in the secret place of thunder; I tested you at the waters of Meribah. Selah. (Psalms 81)

The verse refers to Yehosef, that is, Yosef with an extra heh. Furthermore, the verse refers to his having heard a language I had not known. These two ideas are combined in the Talmud, producing the concept of Joseph being taught this information by the angel Gabriel (an expert in languages).

So, as we can see, Yosef (Ysf) became Yehosef (Yhsf).

So now let's get to the meat of the discussion - was Imhotep also known as Yehosef?

A vizier who was given the pharaoh's signet ring was known officially as The Royal Seal Bearer. The wearing of fine linen garments, so thin as to be semi-transparent, seem to have been a sign of royalty and great prestige in ancient Egypt. Princes and princesses and members of their household are often depicted wearing semi-transparent linen clothing. The placement of a gold collar around the neck is a uniquely ancient Egyptian custom called the conferment of the Gold of Praise.

There are two well-known depictions of this ceremony. The first one shows Pharaoh Seti I sitting on his throne under an ornate canopy. Before him are two servants placing a gold collar around the neck of a priest. The second depiction shows Akhenaten and his queen standing on their balcony tossing gold collars to one of the gods. Though there are almost 40 known depictions and written references to the investiture ceremony, none pre-date the Eighteenth Dynasty. The story of Yosef occurred during the Eighteenth Dynasty. Circa 1550-1300 BCE

Sir Alan H. Gardiner, one of the premier Egyptologists of the early 20th century, points out that it was not that an uncommon occurrence for foreigner to rise to a position of power in ancient Egypt.[ In fact, in 1980 a new tomb was discovered near Zhawser's Pyramid in Saqqara, Egypt, about 18 miles south of Cairo. It was the burial chamber of Aperel. He was a Semite, though not necessarily an Israelite. He was the royal vizier under Amenhotep III and Akhenaten of the Eighteenth Dynasty, the same dynasty that saw Yosef's rise to power.

There were doctors who functioned on different levels forming a hierarchy (Reeves 2001:21):

-The ordinary doctor or sinw
-The supervisor doctor or imy-r sinw
-The chief doctor or wr sinw
-The eldest of doctors or msw sinw
-The inspector of doctors or shd
-The overseer of all the doctors of Upper and Lower Egypt sinw
(Reeves 2001:21; cf Halioua & Ziskind 2005:16).

Reeves explains that the Egyptians differentiated between their physicians and surgeons on the one hand and the exorcist-healers who were priests of the goddess Sekhmet on the other hand. Reeves claims that the most famous of all doctors was Imhotep, the vizier, architect and chief physician to Pharaoh Zhawser (Djoser) who ruled during the Third Dynasty (2686-2649 BCE) and was later identified with the Greek healing god Asklepios.

Was Yehosef also known as Imhotep? No one knows - and a confusion of bad translations is certainly not the shortest path to arriving at the truth in these matters.

Yet another "favorite" proposed "identification" of Joshep is Yuya, but the primary sources make this VERY unlikely.

As in pretty much ALL of these cases, this is more wishful thinking than anything serious.

I know, and every time I read one of those Yuya stories it reminds me to bark out "Who-ya? Yu-Ya!" :)

Yes, I agree, it is virtually impossible to know for sure - there are too many missing pieces about something that happened long ago.

However, I think its still worthwhile to consider the pros and cons.

Names may vary for the same person, within the same language and across languages. For example, Shem was also called Melchizedek and he may have had other; Amraphel was apparently Hammurabi etc.

Regarding the Pharoah "Djoser" vs his Vizier. Djoser was apparently a name given to the Pharoah by later generations. One possibility is that the different name could represent his reliance on another person by that name - it's impossible to know, but nevertheless a possibility. I'm sure there must be biblical examples of the same name transference?

I wish you well in your research, Lester John, may you be busy for some time to come.

J

My apologies in advance for this somewhat defensive reply, Shmuel ...

"Wishful thinking" is actually encouraged as one of Edward de Bono's lateral thinking methods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_thinking). It has the potential to generate new ideas or approaches to a subject. As you recognise, it also obviously has the potential to be a waste of time, though not necessarily.

Still on lateral trend, when considering something - one may decide yes, no, or "interesting". "Interesting" may later develop into yes or no, or may remain interesting. The idea here is to travel along the "interesting" path.

In particular, the lateral approach, may ultimately creatively solve problems that are not solvable using traditional critical approaches. Critical thinking is good and very effective in fine tuning an idea or in blocking ideas that may be waste of tim, but it doesn't have the same value in generating new ideas where the lateral thinking approach is most effective.

Follow the Calendar, Lester John...

Did Yosef use an Egyptian Calendar (described in the rhind papyrus) OR did he use a calendar he brought with him from Canaan?

Knowing this will help you understand Yosef's role in relation to Pharaoh...did Pharaoh adopt Yosef's calendar or retain the one based upon the star 'Sirius'?

J

Jaim,

How did you determine which calendar Yosef or the Pharaoh followed? (it's a genuine question - I'm interested in learning more about it)

The Rhind papyrus tells us that Pharaoh in time of of Yosef used a calendar based upon the star Sirius....whereas the pentateuch tells us that teh Hebrew calendar described in Genesis is based upon cycles of the moon.

The system of keeping time in the pentateuch was based on the cycles of the moon rather than a solar calendar like we use today. In fact, the Hebrew term for "month," chodesh, means "new [moon]," referring to the new moon that began the month. The lunar cycle played a significant role in the cultural and religious life in ancient Israel so that time could be counted by the cycles of the moon (Ex. 19:1).

The New Moon was a festival day, observed by burnt offering and sacrifices as well as banquets (Num 29:6, 1 Sam 20:5, 1 Chron 23:31). The New Moon festival was often listed along with Sabbath as an important religious observance (2 Kings 4:23, Ezek 45:17). Like Sabbath and other rituals, it also came to symbolize empty and self-centered religion when not accompanied by faithfulness to God in other areas (Isa. 1:14, Amos 8:5).

Likewise, the middle of the month or the Full Moon was an important marker of the passing of time. Two of Israel’s most important festivals fell in mid-month (Pesach, Sukkot; cf. Psa 81:3).

The Hebrew lunar calendar contained 12 months of 30 days, which was also the customary period of mourning (Deut 21:13, Num 20:29). Yet the actual lunar cycle is only about 29 ½ days, which resulted in a year of only 354 ½ days. Keeping the lunar calendar coordinated with the seasons of the year required adding a 13th month to the lunar calendar seven out of every nineteen years. This additional month was added to the end of the year following the last month Adar, and was simply called Adar II.

Although the exact history of its development is not clear, the Israelites apparently adopted elements of marking time from both the ancient Canaanites and the Babylonians. Four months are known in the biblical text by older Canaanite names, while seven are mentioned in forms derived from Babylon. There are also preserved two New Years’ dates, one at the Spring equinox in the month of Nisan (Exod 12:1) and one at the Fall equinox in the month of Tishri (Exod 34:22).

Some scholars have suggested that this represents both a civil and a religious calendar, with the civil calendar adopted from the Babylonians during the exile and the religious calendar ordered around the events of the exodus. It may also represent a blending of elements of both lunar and solar time keeping. A tenth century BC inscription known as the Gezer Calendar begins in the Fall and lists the months according to what was harvested in that month.

Because of the differences between the solar and lunar systems of timekeeping, the Old Testament festivals that were linked to the New Moon fell at a general time, but the specific dates according to our solar calendar would vary. They are called movable feasts because of this variance. The Hebrew and later Jewish calendar established the time for the major festivals of the Pentateuch. Since several of those Pentateuch festivals figure prominently in the xtian New Testament, the times they are observed were also adapted into Christian tradition. That explains why Easter (related to Pesach, since Holy Week occurred during the Passover Festival) and Pentecost (figured from the date of Pesach) are movable feasts in Christian tradition; that is, they are calculated by the moon and not by the solar calendar, and so fall on different dates. The differences between Christian Easter and Jewish Passover are due to the development of different calendars during the last 2,000 years.

Hope that helps.

J

for further reading, Lester John -

http://www.ortelius.de/kalender/egypt_en.php

http://pursiful.com/2011/01/ancient-calendars-3-canaan/

http://www.ortelius.de/kalender/j_uk.php

http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/westsem/gezer.html

Jaim,

Thanks for the Hebrew lunar calendar information - I was familiar with it, in part. However I assumed that this calendar was introduced by Moses including the start of the year in the Passover month? Do you have references from Genesis that indicate a lunar calendar, or is the source from other Jewish texts?

Have also noted your further reading links, thanks - will read them in due course

Lester John,

Happy to be of help. However, I am not gonna spoon-feed you; biblical references are noted above and in the links....

I will give you a hint via a question "Who do you think taught 'Moshe Rabbeinu' the Lunar Calendar?" Further hint - Moshe Rabbeinu was "King of Cushites" for 40 years.

You'll simply have to read them...and study.

J

Here is a good book that I recommend. I knew the author and argued with him on many topics.

http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-Ancient-Skies-Cultural-Astronomy/dp...

Jaim,

It looks like an interesting book.

Moshe being king of the Cushites for 40 years sounds familiar - I may have read about it in the book of Jasher. Also I thought that the calendar comes from Enoch?

(As far as I know, the Cushites started in Babylon, and then moved away into Africa (Ethiopia, Sudan. Lower Egypt) and possibly also South India. One of the Hindu gods is named "Krishna" and I have also heard this name pronounced "Cush-na" i.e. son of Cush. So there is a possibility that Krishna is the same of Nimrod - I haven't investigated this further.)

Jaim,

Regarding your comment "The differences between Christian Easter and Jewish Passover are due to the development of different calendars during the last 2,000 years." - I don't agree.

Christian Easter and Jewish Passover are historically supposed to be on the same days, but as far as I know, this was changed via the intervention of the Byzantine Emperor Constantine the Great, in order to make "Easter" match more closely to the Babylonian fertility festival Eostre. That's why they are on different days. Further confusion arose because the Greeks apparently used the same name, Pascha for the Jewish Passover and the Babylonian Eostre.

The New Testament Acts 12:3-4 shows that Easter in that time (~40AD), was after the Jewish Passover. Easter was later adopted by Constantine to replace the Passover.

sounds like you've got a lot of reading to do, Lester John,

Be well,

J

Private User,
actually the Jewish lunar month is 29.5 days long. What this means is that the months alternate between 29 and 30 days. The Jewish year is 356 days long, which makes it 9 days shorter than the solar year. The pattern that the Jewish calendar follows to keep in sync with the purely-solar calendar is rather complex (book length complex). But even this is IRRELEVANT to the Biblical Period. This is because until 359 CE, the length of the month (i.e. 29 or 30 days), was determined by WITNESS report of having VISUALLY seen the "new moon". So the calendar was MUCH more fluid than it is now.

Exodus 12:2 would seem to me, to imply that the whole lunar calendar thing was news to Moses.

"adopted elements of marking time" are a MUCH broader expression than just adopting the names of the months. [Did you know that Turkey also uses 3 of these month names?]

I can't accredit that source of yours for the Canaanite calendar, but it got at least of the basics wrong. It says: "if the crops had not reached a certain stage of ripeness in the 12th month, an extra month was added so that the feast of first-fruits could be suitably observed in the first month." This is completely wrong, simply because the "the feast of first-fruits" was celebrated in the THIRD month (Sivan), continuing all the way until the end of the season in the 7th month (Tishre).
The only determining factor as whether to add the "leap-month" was whether Passover, which is in the 1st month (Nissan), was in the Spring (or not). If it was too early in the solar year (as determined by the crops and various other factors), a month was added, which basically postponed the holiday by a month.

Hello Shmuel-Aharon,

I am familiar with the evolution and changes to the Hebrew Lunar-Solar Calendar throughout time - thank you for posting the distinctions.

My concern, in the exchange with Mr. Lester John, was pointing out to him that a Lunar -Solar Calendar did not Exist in Egypt. The importance of this point is that It illustrates that Yosef could not have been construed to have been pharaoh -- even to an atheist :)

What I was hoping to accomplish with Mr Lester John was to point him at a body of knowledge, surrounding:

1. Origin of Lunar Calendar
2. Origin of Solar Calendar
3. Origin of Lunisolar Calendar
4. Differences between lunisolar calendars

...using the Calendar as a strongly correlated pointer to the conqueror...or in this case, Pharaoh (using Sirius). Yosef would have brought a Lunar Calendar with him.

With the Lunar Calendar harkening back to the earliest wondering Monotheists (Akkadians), the Solar Calendar reflecting a Central Asian Sedentary pastoralist influence (pre-Zoroaster) and Lunisolar calendar linked to the Early Persian/Babylonians which reconciles Lunar and Solar into a more coherent calendar - albeit fluid and imperfect for many centuries to come.

I suspect you are citing aspects of the Hebrew Calendar, whereas I am looking at the taxonomies of Calendars across ancient cultures as far back as has been documented. In those other calendar systems, there are mistakes when compared to a Hebrew Calendar of the Hasmonean Period. However, pre-Hasmonean, the Zoroastrian influences upon the Hebrew calendar cannot be ignored and more than we can ignore the attempted reconciliation of lunar and solar calendars throughout the Medieval Period.

Recently, on the Island of Malta, Archaeologists have discovered the Mnajdra Temple (ca. 3,400 BC) which tracked the location of the sun's rays at dawn on a 12-month calendar. It was not a written, portable, calendar, but it was a 12 month calendar without 29,30 or 31 day distinctions...only seeking to locate vernal and autumnal equinox.

You and I are on the same page insofar as the distinctions and finer points of the Hebrew calendar...but most people only see the world according to the Gregorian Calendar...without knowing it's origins and evolution. I was hoping to compel Mr Lester John to devote as much energy to studying things in their proper context.

J

Found this video maybe it help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-hO26N7Cu4&app=desktop

Billie

Here another video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pad15hk6qMI&app=desktop

Billie

Someone did DNA ok not sure how.

http://www.riaanbooysen.com/vault/Joseph_Potiphar_Amenhotep_DNA_Lin...

Billie