William Mosgrove/Musgrave from Derrenasoo, Roscommon

http://boards.ancestry.com/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=1654&p=loc... has some helpful details ...

Thanks Erica Howton I have seen that and have all or at least most descendants, but do not know anything about father William and his ancestors, I should have been more clear, sorry

Oh I figured you were looking for ancestors! More details in the tree /overview though would help me. Are they Catholic or Protestant? Any DNA studies? Is there a proposed connection to the prominent Musgrave family of Cumberland, England or is looking like a name coincidence? ??

Protestant people, no idea where to start, could be Northern Ireland or the UK. I am trying to find out if there is a connection to Cumberland. Father was a tenant farmer, so not rich, said to be born in either Sligo or Roscommon . No DNA studies

I asked the religion because that makes it more plausible to chase up the "from England" idea I would think.

Maria tracked a line of US Quaker Musgraves to their sojourn in Northern Ireland: Oswin Musgrave

Perhaps try a theory that the same family had members who stayed, some went to Sligo, etc.?

They lived on the border of Roscommon and Leitrim, some lived in
Leitrim some in Roscommon. As they were not RC I am expecting a link to England or Northern Ireland,
a couple of Williams children emmigrated to New York and had children born there, 2 others moved to County Cork here in Ireland.
Tracing the descendants was the easy part, yes some stayed in the same area, they were still there in the 1901 and 1911 Irish census.
Trouble is there are too many William Mosgroves and Anne Crawfords and a marriage record is no where to be found, Irish records can be hard to be found before 1864. Thanks for all your help Erica

Hi Anne-Marie
Erica let me know that you are trying to chase down some Musgroves. Erica and I have done a bit of work on this family, both in the English lines and the American lines. She has Musgroves in her tree and I have Musgraves, so we have always been looking for the missing link where the name changes.

I just recently discovered the Irish branch of the family. As near as I can tell from my research, the American Quaker branch of the family was descended from Oswin Musgrave. I don't have a primary document but the sources I have used say that he was born in Cumberland about 1640 and later emigrated to Ireland. His father's name is usually given as John, but some times as James. Family lore says the family were impoverished Loyalists.

I will help in any way I can. I am happy to share any sources I have found.

Thanks Maria, I just found the entire family in Limerick city, but they seem to have disappeared from there after 1850, and spread out all over the place
Would be great if we can connect them all , would n't it ?

Edward Musgrave

Chasing backwards is the whole story, isn't it. I could swear I saw something about from county Antrim to Sligo migrations. Limerick is a new one on me. I did look up Roscommon and it seems amazingly small, always fortunate in genealogy.

Any cattle thieves or horse rustlers yet? I've decided to work on some "outlaw" Musgrave / Musgroves.

Would love to find that piece of information about Antrim to Sligo migrations as there was a bunch of them there too.
No cattlethieves, yet, found an inventor LOL

I found a little more detail as to where John Musgrave, The Quaker was born:

Birth: 1669
Belleniskfrannel, Segoe Parish, Armagh, Ireland

Oswin is listed as son of James (Or John) 1607-1677, Edenhall, Cumberland. Which is suspiciously the same dates as Sir Philip, 2nd Bt. Musgrove - the Quaker persecutor. http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/member/mu...

What I'll do , I will keep working on all the Irish Musgraves and see where that will get us, maybe we can make a lot of connections.

If you to the library the book for "ancient line" is Collectanea Musgraviana, Notes on the Ancient Family of Musgrave of Musgrave, Westmorland and its various Branches in Cumberland, Yorkshire, Northumberland, Somerset, &c.

I've seen pedigrees debunked because not in that book.

There were two children born in Ireland:

i. Moses Musgrave Sr. was born in 1667 in Belfast County, Northern Ireland, died in April 1726 in Lancaster County, Pennslyvania at age 59, and was buried in Fallowfield, Chester County, Pennslyvania.

ii. John Musgrave Sr. was born in 1669 in Belfast, Armagh County, Ireland and died on February 18, 1745 in Sadsbury Meeting, Chester County, Pennsylvania at age 76.

Anne-Marie,
I just connected Sir Philip Musgrave, 2nd Baronet Musgrave of Eden Hall all the way back to the first Musgrave we can find, http://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000006200162452. Straight line from 1030 to 1678.

Now I'm going to see if I can follow the sibling lines down until I can find our James/John father of Oswin line.

There IS a DNA study! It's in a Border Reivers project. Musgraves policed the Reivers.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/dna_b...

If I read this correctly, Musgraves of Ulster, Cumberland and descendants from British America are a match.

Here's a project decription: http://genforum.genealogy.com/musgrove/messages/860.html

Anne-Marie another theory to pursue perhaps?

"Borderers (particularly those banished by James VI of Scotland) took part in the plantation of Ulster becoming the people known as Ulster-Scots (Scotch-Irish in America). Reiver descendants can be found throughout Ulster with names such as Elliot, Armstrong, Beattie, Bell, Hume and Heron, Rutledge, and Turnbulls amongst others. ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers

Musgrave / Musgrove was a border name associated with the West March. Confusingly (or perhaps not) they were also the police. Now how this worked with the baronetage and the seat in Cumberland I do not know.

Private User

Found this but don't know if it will be useful for you -- http://www.musgravia.4t.com/Musgrave/more_clan.htm

At one time the English King decided to help solve two of his problems with one solution; he would diminish his rebellious Scotish Borderlands and disperse the Irish catholic dissentents by sending "Bordermen" ( Musgraves included) to the Ulster County of Ireland. Many of these Ulster Scots migrated to the American Colonies. Including John, Moses, an Oswin Musgrave in the 1600's.

Erica Howton there has to be a connection somewhere between Richard Musgrave and your Philip Musgrave from Edenhal. I have followed and entered the profiles all the way down from Joseph Musgrave born 1636 in Leeds to 1930 the death of the 5th Baronet Musgrave in 1930 Sir Richard John Musgrave, 5th Baronet

@Maria thanks for the links I will follow up on them :)

Private User, it is great to have a fresh set of eyes helping us with this family. Thanks for your help!

Its allright I am looking for Musgraves too and it would be fun if we could sort out all the branches ,wouldn't it ?

I've got 22 generations ?! http://www.geni.com/path/Erica+Isabel+Howton+c+is+related+to+Richar...

That's pretty awesome.

I got 22 ''no paths found'' suppose that is why I am still looking LOL

Do you have any good summaries into the Ulster Plantation? That's where your Musgraves got lost and where they'll be found again I think. I'm working on the Mungo / Murgo's and Cutbert / Cuthberts.

I think so too, more then likely from Antrim or Armagh, I have noticed some cousins in Armagh at a later stage, so maybe that is were they ended up coming from Scotland and then spread trough Ireland, they were in the Counties Kerry, Limerick, Sligo, Dublin, and Roscommon and Leitrim, and totally unrelated to the Wortley and Edenhall lot, just tenant farmers

Did they come Scotland to Ireland or England to Ireland? I'm not seeing any Scotland.

I am expecting that they arrived during the Ulster Plantation period, question is how the Musgrave got tangled up in this. France-->England--> Scotland? --> Northern Ireland.
But I could be wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers
Border receivers:

West March:
Scotland: Bell, Irvine, Johnstone, Maxwell, Carlisle, Beattie, Little, Carruthers, Glendenning, Moffat.

England: Graham, Hetherington, MUSGRAVE , Storey, Lowther, Curwen, Salkeld, Dacre, Harden, Hodgson, Routledge, Tailor, Noble.

English seems to be the answer