Hildegard von Vinzgouw - How Should We Record Her Name?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Saturday, November 24, 2012
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Showing 1-30 of 75 posts
11/24/2012 at 2:48 AM

Mimi Snyder
yesterday at 12:00 AM
Managers of Hildegard of Vinzgouw,I would like to add "Empress Hildegard von Vinzgau of the Holy Roman Empire" to her name....

Ben M. Angel
yesterday at 12:31 AM
Empress is a title, and the Holy Roman Empire was not in existence during her lifetime. For guidance on the evolution of the Frankish Empire into the Germanic state later known as the Holy Roman Empire, please refer to its Wikipedia page. -Ben.

Steve Montgomery
yesterday at 1:40 AM
I personaly would not change this profile Unless a majority of the managers of this profile are in agreement to any changes that are proven as fact.....

Bjørn P. Brox
yesterday at 9:06 AM
Empress is definitely not a part of anyone's name.
You can however us it in the Display Name field, but remember that very long display names just messes up the node in tree view.
In my opinion Empress and other things that tells more about the person should be used in the About Me.

Bjørn P. Brox
yesterday at 9:08 AM
Secondly: Since she is French Empress would be wrong anyhow.

Ann Vermeulen (Ramsey)
yesterday at 11:50 AM
She wasn't English. There shouldn't be any English at all in her name.

Tammy Swingle (Tucker), Volunteer Curator
yesterday at 7:26 PM
I agree with Ann and Bjorn.

Erica Isabel Howton, (c)
yesterday at 7:41 PM
Can I ask why you were interested in adding to the name?
I try and check the validity of a profile name by using google to find out more details about a person, or source information, etc.
The name Hildegard of Vinzgouw gives me unambiguous results. I worry that altering it would lead me astray.

yesterday at 8:33 PM
Actually since she was Germanic, her correct name should be
Hildegard av Vinzgouw. Since we do not know if she was actually crowned "Empress of the West" and "Queen of the Franks", we can only give her the title Consort which just translates to wife in French.

If she was crowned, then the titles should be in French..Impératrice de l'Ouest et Reine des Francs. However, I doubt that she was crowned and did not hold the titles in her own right so I vote to put her name in its Germanic form and no titles. We can put in the "about her" section that she was the Queen Consort.

Mimi Snyder
yesterday at 8:35 PM
She was the second wife of Charlemagne.
Stanford references her as an Empress here:
Here are other references:
I understand some resist the English Name Empress... but Charlemagne (as he is well known today) was Carolus Magnus, Imperator.
How about Imperatrix?

Erica Isabel Howton, (c)
yesterday at 9:44 PM
Hi Mimi
I love the Auden's Ghosts site myself! But it's not an "official" site from Stanford's medieval history dept or anything like that: the webmaster is http://www.stanford.edu/~njenkins/ an Auden (20th century poetry) expert.- DLD's point is "we do not know if Hildegard had any "crowned" title at all so we cannot add that. We could add "consort" but that's fairly meaningless / unneeded for disambiguation in the name.
- Ben's point is that the Holy Roman Empire didn't exist then, so how could she be an "Empress" of something that didn't happen yet?
- I tested the suggested name of Hildegard av Vinzgouw and it gave great results: pages in many languages including English. For someone of common heritage this is, to me, the most important issue of all.

yesterday at 9:52 PM
I am sorry but those two sites are not actually references.
The gentlemen who posted the genealogical information from Stanford is a Prof of English, working on the social roots of W. H. Auden. His information should not be taken as "proof" of any historical fact, other that Charlemagne was married to a lady called Hildegard. In fact, he has her listed as Empress of the Romans, which we know was not the case. Carolus was crowned Holy Roman Emperor after the death of Hildegard. This is obviously not a reference site; he doesn't even have references.
The second website is even less of a reference,just another of the countless unsourced and unreferenced genealogical trees on the web.
A Historian,preferably from France, who is specializes in the history of this era should be able to tell us if she held the titles in her own right (i.e. she was crowned Reine des Francs & Impératrice de l'Ouest) or only by marriage.
I doubt she was crowned. She was his consort;that's it.

yesterday at 10:34 PM
The Empress of the West title could be wrong. Have to check that more carefully. He was King of the Franks & Lombards.
As for the name... we should stick to the same language.
Mini, Carolus Magnus is Latin for Charles The Great (I knew all those years taking Latin with the nuns would pay off one day). So, if we use Latin for his name.. we should use Latin for his wives as well.
He was actually Charles I, known as Charles Le Grand if we use French.
Interesting point but Charles did not speak French. French, as a language, did not exist at the time. He would have spoke a form of German (not German but a language that developed into German) and, of course, Latin.

11/24/2012 at 3:01 AM

My research on this line is on the Charlemagne Project: http://www.geni.com/projects/Charlemagne-Emperor-of-the-West/1550

- Einhard refers to Hildegard as "de gente Suavorum"

- Thegan's Vita Hludowici Imperatoris names her "Hildigardam quæ erat de cognatione Gotefridi ducis Alamannorum"

- The Annales Laurissenses record the death of "Hildegardis regina

- Paulus Diaconus wrote an epitaph to "Hildegardis regina"

11/24/2012 at 3:13 AM

A long discussion was held to decide on how to record Charlemagne's (Charlemagne) names with Justin Durand,Private User, Private User amongst many others.

I can't find seem to find it right now (perhaps it was before the DIscussion option, & we had it in Messages?) - but much interesting research came to the fore, including an increased awareness that the language in which Chucky himself would have recognized his own name spoken to him, was almost certainly none of the ones that had come down to us in writing. This would apply to Hildegrade too.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 7:21 AM

Yes, I think leave granny's profile as it is...:)

Private User
11/24/2012 at 7:22 AM

All names should be listed ,as we are dealing with many of the area of the world and different names are used .Just because, in one country, he goes by one name doesn't mean the rest of the world knows it or uses it.A new comer coming onto Geni might not have any clue what or who the person is if you don't have a name they reaconize . In the English speaking world and most likely French speaking world Charlesmagne would be the name they know him as. Anywhere I've read about him, theynstart with Charlesmagne and list all other names right there with it.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 7:27 AM

Sharon there was a long disusion on this subject awhile ago. It acutally smi turned nasty, which I won't go into . It must be out there somewhere. I think it happened more then a year ago.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 7:33 AM

Geni have language dependent names on their work list.
None-native name variants should wait until we get that.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 7:40 AM

HIldegrard would be listed I would imagine with several names also, Most historiacal people seem to have multi names.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 7:41 AM

Bjorn, Hun!!!! What list?

11/24/2012 at 8:10 AM

I see two different questions. What did she think her name was? And, what should we call her so we know who we're talking about?

She thought her name was Hildegarde. No surname. She was a Queen, of the Franks. And, she was an Empress of the restored Western [Roman] Empire. The Holy Roman Empire did not exist in her lifetime.

She lived before the time of surnames, so we invent surnames for her. In English, she is usually called Hildegarde of Swabia, from Einhard's description "de gente Suavorum", which means "from the family / tribe of Swabia". Sometimes she is called Hildegarde of Alemannia, because her father was Duke of Alemannia. Alemannia is the same as Swabia. Sometimes she is called Hildegarde of Vinzgouw, because her father was Count of Vinzgouw. We now call her father's family the Agilolfinger, so some genealogists call her Hildegarde Agilolfing.

English Wikipedia likes Hildegarde of Vinzgouw. French Wikipedia calls her Hildegard de Vintzgau. German Wikipedia avoids giving her a surname.

In her lifetime it was customary for the wife of a king to be called queen. And, it was recognized that the wife of an emperor was an empress.

There can never be a final, black-and-white answer to what her name should be on Geni. It will always be a matter of personal opinion and personal taste. Anything more that "Queen Hildegarde" (and perhaps "of Swabia") goes beyond the sources and starts inventing or reconstructing data.

When we clean up her name, we need to pay special attention to the AKA field so that we enter as many variations as we find so that everyone on Geni can find her and know who she is.

11/24/2012 at 9:35 AM

APPLAUSE from the wings :-)

11/24/2012 at 10:01 AM

A reminder on how names work in Geni (as I understand it)

first name, birth surname, last name

"simple" SEARCH (the search box)
Any of the values you enter

"advanced" SEARCH (using the filter options on the left)
specific to the values you enter in specific fields

the @ option , also used in messaging
Display name

Google search (using Site: Geni name)
Display name

11/24/2012 at 10:03 AM

Hmm I think google search "smarter" than I'm referencing and should give you the Geni profile based on more possibilities than I list.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 10:47 AM

Great discussion. I leave this to the much more experienced genealogists then myself. Your expertise is amazing.

11/24/2012 at 11:01 AM

Google search has no idea what the fields on the Geni page are. They will index all the fields that are visible when they fetch the page.
It's a good thing that "also known as" is visible.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 11:17 AM

Not correct, - in theory you can use Google to make much better searches than Geni. We just have to figure out how.
Log out of Geni and view how Geni are tagging a profile, and how Google indexes it.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 11:32 AM

My anser is just record it correctly and reference all know refences to her and anyone else who happens to pop up in the furture do the same. It's not rocket science!Altho sometimes I think some people on Geni try to make it that way!

Private User
11/24/2012 at 11:32 AM

It';s really far more simple then that. Mountains are being made out mole hills here!

11/24/2012 at 1:14 PM

yes i agree with judy there are lots of areas where you need a phd just to use this site!!

Private User
11/24/2012 at 1:35 PM

Never mind use the site but understanding there statements! You read someof the remarks and you say What! I mean most things could be said much simplier. to the point and shorter!

Private User
11/24/2012 at 1:39 PM

Example Emperise is not a name/ Ya think! No it's a title. A high title and by the way the French so use Emperor and Emperess. Remember Napolian.!

Private User
11/24/2012 at 1:47 PM

Amy, weather not a person is English or not, since half the world speak English , maybe more than half the world, don't you thing English should be imcluded in name. Mind you I said included. That's how we have always read it.That's the language we are taught world history in.A good chunk of us only speak and read and write English.Last time I knew that's the main language of Ebgland, Scotland, Northern Island, Austrilia, New Zwwland, Canada, USA, South Africa and a good secrion of India. Anywhere. England or USA have owned at one time or another speaks English.Plus many countried other then those also speak English, maybe not first but they know it.So English sould be included along with other languages.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 1:55 PM

Titles etc has nothing to do in name fields independent of languages.

11/24/2012 at 3:04 PM

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_s... the number of English speakers (primary and secondary) is estimated between 500 million and 1.5 billion. It's a safe bet to say that the majority of the world does NOT speak English.

It's not even safe to assume that English is the primary secondary language. Chinese may be larger in number of secondary speakers.

11/24/2012 at 3:29 PM

"Ebgland, Scotland, Northern Island, Austrilia, New Zwwland"

judy please learn some English...

Private User
11/24/2012 at 5:11 PM

Miss type and I am speaking English. Born in America of native American and English back ground people who some arr. on the Mayflower . Most arr by 1650. A couple of frenchmen arr later. Sorry honey bun I am speaking English. Never said I could spell. But I do have manners.cuse me Ireland not Island an n on the end of American. Zeeland That's called bad typing and spelling not English. Jason you need to learn maners and the diference between speaking and writing English as to bad spelling and mistyped words and not going back to re check, which I didn't but even if I had noticed I messed up and was able to reconize I miss spelled I might not have been able to fix it.But I think you got the point didn't you,

Private User
11/24/2012 at 5:13 PM

I looked you up and I see you are from New Zealand and I still spelled it incorrectly and didn't know til I looked you up and saw where you live.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 5:15 PM

I looked you up and I see you are from New Zealand and I still spelled it incorrectly and didn't know til I looked you up and saw where you live.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 5:17 PM

I suggested that spell check be added to Geni. This computer won't let me add it. Other computer has it but I don't always have use of it. Basicly, try to live with it. If I fix it I will.

Private User
11/24/2012 at 5:56 PM

Try this again! Good luck with the name game here. You'll do whatever you want anyway.Just though it would be nice if all names were presented in a way everyone would be happy!

Showing 1-30 of 75 posts

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