Deacon Edmund Rice - parentage/ancestry of Edmund Rice

Sure, not exactly where we are but it's all fine by me. LOL

Do you want to give us a rundown of where you stand now?

I suggest that to start with you contact the admin at the Tudor Y-DNA project and see if they will put you in touch with the William Owen Tutor descendant who you feel is a match (I still feel it isnt a valid match btw). Then you can confirm the line from that person back. I also cant stress enough the importance of doing a higher marker test, like 111 markers. I'd get an autosomal test too, because you believe there are multiple lines of descent right? Those other lines won't show in the Y-DNA, but they might in an autosomal test (they might not as well, but if the DNA was there to cause familiar resemblance then it would have to be in the autosomal DNA.

Then, on the Geni side of things, if you could delete the profiles above John Rice that you are the sole manager of, we can add something in the notes "About Me" of John Rice, that we are investigating the parentage and some of your theories. We have all the historical people already as MPs, and we can work together to work on source documents on those. Then, if we can prove the connection, we can attach John Rice etc. in the right spot.

I'll see what the Tudor people have to say....The autosomal is about $300? I've got a 25 marker under way for my brother Jay, and I will try to order after his results come back in. Thanks for your guidance!

I was trying to think of a plan for you, Dale, on next steps, but Kris' sounds so sensible, all I can do is encourage you to follow it.

This is my understanding of the Blood relatedness/Connections....It is not yet perfectly clear, but John Rice 1624 shows that he sponsored his brother Thomas Rice in 1650 to come to America, both having received their inheritence early from their Mother. Observations welcome:
Rhys ap Thomas KG 1449 + Eva F Gwillym ap Henry = Dafyd ap Rhys Trericert + Alson Martin/Beatrice Tudor Gardiner/Rice= Henry William 1521-1588 of Haverford west + Elizabeth Batman= John Rice I ,William Rice, John Rice II + Katrin Perrot of Goggerdan= Thomas Rice of Richeston+ Margaret Mercer = Perrott ap Rice1600-1640 + Margaret Littleton = John Rice 1624 + Rebecca Howell/ Anne Hackley= American Rices of Dedham Ma. John Rice sponsored his Brother Thomas iin 1650who arrived and married Elizabeth King?= Thomas Rice 1654 who was called back to England to settle the estate of their Mother who did die 1710....He died at sea returning with inheritence and was thrown overboard according to seamen on the ship. This is the understanding I am working from with my look alike siblings walking around all over Oregon via Nebraska....Thanks in Advance for whatever you can sort out.....I have deleted the Henry VIII refernce from Geni until we get satisfactory answer from Tudor DNA site. Best Regards

Dale C. Rice can you point us to the documentation on this sponsorship?

I see if I can find the site; I wrote it down yesterday, from ONLINE data...Kris the merge for my sister Dortothy is done How? There is nothing listed to press or agree MERGE. That's fine! I am keeping her fully informed of what's going on. She has all the Physical Records, and Im doing the leg work as it were. So Please merge.

I was on a site called : histfam. familyresearch .org for Thomas ap Rhys. I gleaned the information from clicking on descendants.ancestors backward and forward....this is more complete listing of the births, etd. There may be anotherone....I'll continue to check. Thanks

I cant complete the merge because its in a seperate tree. It is to another profile of your sister, added by her daughter. So if you can get Valerie to log on and invite her by email to that one and you invite her on her profile you added then we can get that merge completed.

Okay, got it!

Hello Erica, Kris, Judy: FYI I found the names of all of Daffyd's and Alswin Martin/Rice children....This may explain a lot. Keep in mind Daffyd is dead and gone 1540....his wife continues in the Household of Princess/Then Queen Mary 1558, another 18 years so to age 78. First born to last born are: 1Thomas, no issue: 2 Jonett (f) dafydd Daughter Mary 1530 :3 WILLIAM ap Dafydd 1521+ Elizabeth Bateman= John Rice II/Katherine Perrott : 4 Lewys EUEL& Hynal (Twins?) 5 Harry ap Dafydd ;6 Alswn (f) Dafydd It is the William Line that goes onto my line of Perrott ap Rice or Pryce 1600 and subsequent birth of John 1624 with the remarkable DNA profile that is so close to the Wm. Owen Tudor profile listed on the TUDOR DNA project site....just fyi: It has been devilishly hard to comprehend how we have William and Henry in the Princess Mary Household, now we know....there are TWO persons of these names and coincidentally the Griffeth ap Gruffed ap Rhys ap Thomas William is not listed as a son by Katherine Howard in the Peerage Book of eminence, ie Burk's Peerage. And neither is Mary. So we do know that Mary and William/Henry were looked after by Queen Mary's Household accounts paying for Clothes/Education/ even a Wedding Dress....And William is the one granted a Pomegranite for his Coat of Arms May 2, 1555 by Queen Mary. I understand it's all circumstantial, but name another set of circumstances that matches this and I'll put in with you! LOL Best Regards Dale C. Rice 1948 Nebraska Rices.

@so happy for you Dale and you have the best helper Kris Judy Rice

Yes, this is good to neutral news....The aural story is that Beatrice went to Field of Cloth of Gold1520 and William/Henry was born the following March 1521. His Bloodline is readily traceable to another Henry Grand child, Catrin Perrott of GogerddanWales.....who's son PERROTT ap RICE fathered our JOHN RICE 1624 of Dedham Ma. His DNA would most certainly be that of KING HENRY TUDOR...But the links do not stop there. I am determined to investigate the effect of the Double Dose of Henry's Blood in the son Thomas ap Rice father of Perrott....That man would be unique in all of HISTORY. Can't imagine anyone having the doubled set of DNA on both Father and Motherside from the same grandfather/great grandfather combo of Thomas ap Rice of Gogerddan. It would explain why there are double gangers walking around 500 years after the fact due to the reinforcing doubling effects of VALOIS lines in the FACIAL features....My nephew's picture will astonish anyone who see's it side by side to the Very STRONG features of LOUIS XI. Son of Charles VI of Valois FRANCE. FYI....Test should be here any time with results in JUNE or JULY at the latest....I will submit to Kris when they are all in....I will be in LONDON Sept 10-15 and plan to pay a visit to the HOUSE of COmmons Historian's office....Who knows, some one over there may take a passing iinterest? LOL

PS: JUDY, it was your information on the VAlOIS Ancestory that traced my brother's results...so you have my profound thanks and mention if this goes as I believe it will.....The Doublegangers are spread through 4 generations now, luckily we have that record back to 1831 to the present in fine photographic reproductions. DCR

JUDY, Kris, Erica: I keep seeing Thomas Rice1518, William Rice1521, and even Mary Rice1530 being listed as Children of Katherine Howard and Griffeth ap Gruffed 1508. Griffeth did not mary Katherine until 1524 when she was 14....Thus Wm. would be born 2 or 3 years before they got married, and Thomas is not found any where but as a natural born son of Alswin Martin Rice and Daffid ap Rice 1475 attatched to Princess mary Tudor's household....Thomas, was first born, then Jonet who had Mary 1530 William is next 1521/22 then two Hywell, and Lewys, Then Harry, and finally Alswin....These children belong to the line of Sir Rhys ap Thomas son Daffid. How do we clear this up....? LDS looks to be the source of misinformation in my view....Burks Peerage does not recognize William, Thomas, or Mary as Children of Katherine Howard. FYI

Sorry, should read 11 23 16 not 28 for both ER & JF!

there is no reason to believe that Edmund was born to non-RICE father. Or that John RICE was born to a non-RICE father.

I'll go take a peak at the Frost DNA project.

ok let me see if I can explain it better

Edmund RICE is believed to have had these for the first markers:

13 23 14 10 14 14 11 14 11 12 11 28 15 8 9 8 11 23 16 18 28 12 14 15 16

Edmund Frost is believed to have
13 23 15 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 24 15 19 28 15 15 17 17

(website http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/frost/pats) 4th participant listed in Group 8.

Those markers are not a match. The Frost participant was a 67/67 match to the Group 8 baseline. His ancestor, Edmund Frost b 1593 was a brother to Thomasine Frost who married Edmund RICE.

I conceed....I must have copied Edmunds DNA and labeled it Frost....thought I was onto something there.....

I am really having a problem with the William Rice born to Robert RICE & Joan Otter Same William Rice Born to Griffeth RIcE & Katherine Howard, AND my William RICE born to the Laundress of Sir Rhys ap Thomas, all claiming to be born in the Same year, or nearly so, and all marying Thomasine MINN/Myall alleged mother of Henry T. RICE 1555 Thomas H. RIce 1558? Does any body really know? My father's story is the most consistent because we have the players in the right place at the right time and I have the double ganger's to prove it....meaning William ap Rice 1521 born 9 mos. after field of cloth of gold and in the household of Princess Mary Tudor and in her service as Queen is the most likely to be the REAL Wm. RICE! His mother Beatrice: AKA Alswin Martin-Rice served the Queen until the Queens death for 38 years....His DNA is passed onto Perrott ap Rice or Pryce and that's where this story gets foggy....So anyone with any clairification is more than welcome to pipe up! THANKS! DCR 1948

None of the participants at the DNA Tudor site claim to be descendants of "the" (ie Henry VIII etc) Tudors. Just people whose last name is Tudor or Tutor etc.

There are no known Tudor male line descendants generally recognized (in fact I dont know of any other claimants either,
even suspected/possible lines have either died out completely or daughtered out at least). To use DNA to prove it, you would need to have a recognized descendant tested to compare against..

John Rice is clearly not a son of Edmund and Thomasine Frost. Surnames were not in common usage much earlier, but it is possible that the fairly close DNA is the result of a relationship many generations earlier.

I'll try to see if I can dig up anything else....

William Owen Tudor of Wales is listed in the 1800 1810 1820 1830 Cumberland North Carolina Census. There is also a William Tudor of New York.....googling the name....That's what I know, John Rice 1624 has shorter DNA so is the ELDER line of the two....FYI

Lets tackle this in steps....

Lets first examine the medieval families, then we can tackle the New England families and then we can tackle any potential links.

I have merged your profiles into the existing Perrot/Tudor etc lines.

http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-PERR-HAR-1530.html

can you point me to a source for John Perrot being a son of John Perrot and Anne Cheyney?

the John ap Rice you believe the New England John Rice cant possibly be.

see John ap Rice, of Scotsborough

note as well
http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewpage/llgc-id:1041698/ll...

which states that the monument had Martin arms etc.

This information was gatehred from Rice History Free pages: The Children of John Rice II and Catrin perrott are listed below.....with a numberic their children will be listed with a numeric # and a second Number to keep in order: 1) Thomas Pryce & Margaret Mercer 1580
1-1) John Pryce & Elizabeth Newsham 2-2) PERROTT 1600 & MARGARET LITTLETON 3-3) CAPT JOHN PRYCE & REBECCA HOWELL 4-4) BARTHOLOMEU NO ISSUE 5-5) JANE PRYCE & SIR RHYS RUDD, BARONETT 6-6) ALICE: NO ISSUE 7-7) LETIS ID # 163513 no issue? and unknown

1-1) a.James Pryce 1670 & /Elenore Powell b) John Pryce 1670 c) Elizabeth Pryce ? 2 unknown Pryce children
2-2) a: John Pryce 1630 b: Perrott & Abigayle Newsham c:James Pryce & Ann RUDD no issue d: unknown Pryce & Wm. Davies of Westfield 1630
3-3) William listed as ONONIan no issue
4-4: Bartholomeu: no issue
5-5) Jane & RHYS RUDD: a. Anthony Rudd b. Urien Rudd, Thomas & Anne Newsham 1630 c. Ann Rudd d. Elenora Abigayle & Thomas Awbrey 1606

I need to assert something here. Perrott ap Rhys/Rice was the name given to me by my father who's story checks out in History....The Son of Cathrin and John Rice II were Thomas and William. William is shown wrongly to be a female in the History of Golden Grove and was born 1570 and could clearly have the son John ap Rice....We don't know, or he had a son Perrott too....Im not happy about discarding all the History that links Alswyn Martin Rice and Daffid ap Rhys to John Rice II of Rickerson....WE may not understand it but I would prefer to have them back in the mix with a statement of not yet proven....Some one out there could have the piece that's missing but will never know the way it is shown right now.....Nothing is not better than the piece we had before!

Erica, Judy: The info on Anne Cheney & John Perrott is on a site I use called Tudor Place....just google and it should come up....Interesting that Mary Berkley married Sir Thomas Perrott after her fling with Henry Tudor. Ergo the child is a Perrott.