Christoffel Snyman, SV/PROG - Is Snyman derived from Seugnet (Senaye) (Senayement =? from Senaye)

I thought Christoffel' s father was German "SNEIDER".
The French Huguenots arrived after 1686 in the Cape. Christoffel was born in the Cape around 1665 from an Indian mother van Pallicate.

It would mean Maria de Savoye did not marry in first wedding a " half cast"
but a French Huguenot responding to the name of Senaiman derived from Seugnet ???

C. SENAYMENT 's wedding in july 1689 do they say who is the bride ??

I seem to remember the SEUGNET sisters have their names listed on "The Wapen van Alkmaar" the ship that JEAN DURAND took in August 1688.

How do we know that Paul Roux was his 'voog' at his marriage?

Do you have a copy of the marriage entry?

I will be following this with great interest!
June Kotzee

According to C PAMA Christoffel was the son of Anthonie of Bengale and was christened on 9.3,1669. He was in partnership as a farmer with Ernst Friedrich Walters. He farmed at Sandvliet" at Drakenstein and died 1706. His father was a Free Burger. This is the only information I could find and would like to find out more about him. Greetings Maria

Dear Alexander,

Thinking of it I always thought it strange that a noble lady educated uptight
would marry the son of a slave. This is a very modern concept and feminist !
I doubt her father Jacques de Savoye of a name of importance would give his benediction.

This is very interesting. I will have to go down to the Archives on this one and obtain copies of the relevant documents. Alexander makes out a compelling case. But today it is raining and I am not going out.

Ek sprak g'n sprook about this great grandfather of mine now anymore. I am totally just going to follow this with great interest. Francois please go and have a look if you can.
Armenis it could also be that it was just the bad spelling of the time. This have to, as Jansi says, be a proper document of prove to change such a major SV.

I repeat my earlier query:

How do we know that Paul Roux was his 'voog' at his marriage?

Do you have a copy of the marriage entry?

@ Alexander Armenis

May I please have a copy?

Having read the various posts on this discussion I put the question to Richard Ball (whose research I admire enormously) and post here his response. Richard is not on GENi. Food for thought and perhaps some pointers on where to look, what needs to be seen etc.!

Start of quoted message.
===

Christoffel Snyman

The following for what its worth and I am happy for you to print or
circulate these comments of mine on what you quoted:

http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/lombard/I023.html

I have not investigated, but to some of your points I can answer as my
memory best serves me.

I think the original idea that CS was the son of Antonij van Bengale
and Cattrijn van Paliacatte (hope I have got the names right!) comes
from the fact that CS is named as their heir in that couple's will - I
don't know if he is named as a son or not - I don't have a copy of the
will.

Dr J Hoge - Bydraes tot die Genealogies van ou Afrikaanse Families
Balkema, 1958, page 129, states:

SNYMAN, Christoffle. Volgens MOOC 14/212 anno 1683 seun en 'universele
erfgenaam' van die vryburger Anthony van Bengale, wat in 1683 oorlede
is. Laasgenoemde is miskien identies met Anthony van Bengale wat met
sy vrou Catharina van Bengale in 1676 onder die ledemate van die
Kaapse Kerkgemeente en in 1682 (VC 39 p 62, waar sy vrou Catharina
van Paliacatte genoem word) met een kind onder die vryburgers vermeld
is.

(the MOOC 14 series are fragmentary estate papers - not included in
the main series indexed on NAAIRS). I think TEPC did a sort of excel
index but I cannot, myself, make head or tail of it).

---

The Hans Sneider (again I hope I have the name right) as father came
from Mansell Upham (a long and detailed article in Capensis) who
suggested that CS was the son of CvP (but not Antonij) and suggested a
baptism to be found in the NGK Cape town register, slave baptisms, as
appropriate. He found evidence that Hans Sneider was present at the
Cape at that time.

From FFY (I note the new great red outline copyright notice!):
In Hevigen Woede . . . Earliest recorded female bandiet at the Cape of Good Hope - A Study in Upward Mobility in Volumes 3/97 and 4/97 of Capensis

---

Identifying someone who marries and has children with a baptism or
birth (when there is no other evidence available is always chancy or
doubtful - there can be no certainty). This applies not only to Cape
Slave ancestry (where fathers are hardly ever named - at least in the
baptismal records) but to all ancestry, South African, English and
elsewhere - just because a child was born and baptised at a suitable
date is no guarantee in itself of identity. That is why we hope for
wills and estate files which may have more detail, and also examine
baptismal witnesses for clues.

---

As to Paul Roux. He, as I understand it, was the koster, or clerk of
the Drakestein congregation. The records that survive are apparently
his notebook, from which the register proper was presumably written
up. I have written a note about the circumstances here:

http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/notes/Drakenstein_registers.htm

and I have transcribed them here:

http://www.eggsa.org/sarecords/index.php/church-registers/drakenste...

If examined one will see that Paul Roux's spelling was by no means
fixed, varying even for French names and his spelling of Dutch names
is often quite odd. I would have said that Senayment (or variant) was
not a bad rendition in French terms of the sound Snijman.

C> Paul Roux was married to Claudine Seugnet from Saintonge. In
C> French Seugnet is pronounced Senaye or Senai.

Seugnet would today, I believe, be pronounced approximately sernyay
- how it would have been pronounced by the lady herself I have no
idea. Pronunciations have changed over time.

C> The earliest documentary evidence we have of Christoffel Snyman is
C> from the Drakenstein church registry. Here we find that his name
C> was spelt 'Senayement' by his 'voog', Paul Roux, during
C> Christoffel's wedding in July 1689.

Where is this marriage to be found? So far as I know there are no
Drakenstein marriages extant before 1717 - it is not in the Cape Town
registers that I can see - am I somehow mistaken?

In the church registers the earliest reference appears to be
Stellenbosch baptisms 1693 - Sniman

C> If Paul Roux was Christoffel's 'voog' then who was Christoffel's family?

What is this 'Voog' business - what does it mean - what is the
evidence for this?

I am unable to follow the above statement.

----

C> It stands to reason that a child who loses a parent onboard a ship
C> during a voyage or orphaned by misfortune ... is in most cases
C> taken-in by a female relative with ties to the biological mother or
C> father.

This is the purest speculation - at the Cape orphan or semi-orphan
children were usually farmed out by the Orphan Chamber and often to
totally unrelated people who were paid a monthly fee.

C> The name used by Paul Roux, paternal sponsor of Chrstoffel Snyman
C> and school master of the Huguenot community in Drakenstein, is the
C> earliest written reference available to us. A literate man, Paul
C> Roux wrote Senayement, why Senaye-ment?

What is the source for this statement - what is a paternal sponsor and
on what occasion was he such a thing?

C> The spelling of Christoffel's surname from the earliest documents are as follows:
C> - C. Senayement - His wedding on July 1689
C> - C. Senaymant - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 22.07.1695
C> - C. Seniman - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 01.08.1697
C> - C. Senaymant - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 25.10.1699
C> - C. Senaiman - Son's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 24.07.1701
C> source: A.J. Kannemeyer ‘Hugenote Familieboek’, p.270-273

Where is the above marriage entry to be found?

baptisms:

In 1692 Stellenbosth Christofell Sniman
in 1694 Cape Town Crhijstoffel Snijman

Christoffel is, I believe, the Dutch form of that name - the French
form would be Christophe, I would say.

---------

C> Alexander -

C> The following source shows that Groot Catrijn had a son name
C> Christoffel:http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/e651.htm

C> Is there proof that the 'Christoffel' mentioned in the above
C> baptism entry refers to Christoffel Snyman? If there is hard
C> evidence that proves this then we can end the discussion and call
C> it a day.

No, even for the usual suspects, where father and mother were named,
there is seldom 'hard evidence' that the child baptised is the person
who married 20 or so years later - unless supplementary evidence can
be found in wills, etc as I noted above. For slaves there is hardly
ever any hard evidence - in this case I believe there is none.

I should imagine that Mansell Upham in his article mentioned above
would cite most of the possible sources, though he is usually focussed
on indicating slave origins. I do not have a copy of the article so
cannot check.

C> I am certain that the fist mention of Christoffel Snyman in any
C> tangible sense dates to his marriage entry in the Drakenstein
C> Church registry.

I would like the details, please.

----

C> The First Fifty Years project states that the same woman, namely
C> Angela van Bengale (Mooi Ansela), baptised both Christoffel Snyman
C> and Christoffel's 8th child, Susanna
C> Snyman.http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g6/p6312.htm

I am not sure what the above means - does it mean she was a witness?
Since she wasn't a minister, how could she have baptised any children?

C> This is incorrect and is the only connection between Groot Catrijn
C> and Christoffel Snyman, albeit a false connection as these two
C> witnesses were in all likelihood not the same person.

Maybe, maybe not - who can say which is more likely - but see also
the will of Anthonie van Bengale mentioned above - I should think that
that was the earliest mention of CS.

C> Let me explain:

C> The witness in the baptism record for Groot Catrijn's son
C> Christoffel was named Angila. This Angila was Mooi Ansela
C> (*c.1630), the close friend of Groot Catrijn.

How can we be any surer of that than the other explanation?

C> On the other hand, we have Christoffel Snyman's daughter Susanna's
C> baptism record that mentions a witness named Ancelaar van Bengale
C> (A.J. Kannemeyer, 1940). This was Ansela Hanselaar (van Bengale)
C> (*c.1665), the wife of Lorenz Campher.

How can you be sure of that - a name is merely a name. The wife of
Laurens Campher was Ansela van de Caap.

http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/olivier/I641.html

C> This is evident as Susanna Snyman's husband, Jacob Kutzer, was a
C> widower, previously married to Cornelia Helm who was the
C> mother-in-law of Johanna Catharina Campher (*c.1707), the
C> grandaughter of Ansela Hanselaar van Bengale & Lorenz Campher.
C> Lorenz Campher served with Christoffel Snyman in the Stellenbosch
C> militia (c.1703-1705).

One can argue all sorts of things but without 'hard evidence' (to quote) which we do not have, it remains speculation.

I suggest that before continuing the discussion you all read Mansell
Upham's article which, whatever your opinion may be as to its
validity, will be well sourced and argued.

All the best,

Richard
--
Richard Ball
Norfolk, England
http://www.eggsa.org

End of quoted message.
====

Discuss!!!

Alexander - Hello Jansi, have a look in the Hugenote Familieboek by A.H. Kannemeyer (1940). If you want a copy let me know. Please could you put a copy linked to the profile?

Marguerite Thérèse de Savoye arrived in the Cape o/b "OOSTERLAND"
ship on 26 April 1688. She was born in actual Belgium in 1672. Meaning she was 16 upon arrival in the Cape. There are no Christophe Senaye on that ship or any of 7 other ships. We don't have the ZION passenger list.
These first 8 ships transported the HUGUENOTS families.

See www.olivetreegenealogy.com/ships/sahug01.shtml

Anyhow the ZION arrived in May 6th 1689 in the Cape.

Contributor : Lesley ROBERTSON " French speaker at the Cape "
M. BOUCHER 1981
(ISBN O-86981-222-X )

Having read Richard Ball's comments above, I repeat:

How do we know that Paul Roux was his 'voog' at his marriage?

Do we have a copy of this marriage entry or any other document stating this fact?

This is the crux of the matter.

Whatever Kannemeyer says is hearsay and can not to be relied upon.

I think that about sums it up Jansi.

It is a pity that we have lost Alexander's contributions which were interesting based on his departure points.
The complete discussion would have been much more valuable than just the remaining counter arguments

How come Alexander's post have gone?

I saved 3 of them -

Quote: Alexamder Armenis
This has been bothering me for a while and I would like to ask the managers of this profile to seriously consider the following for discussion.

The earliest documentary evidence we have of Christoffel Snyman is from the Drakenstein church registry. Here we find that his name was spelt 'Senayement' by his 'voog', Paul Roux, during Christoffel's wedding in July 1689.

If Paul Roux was Christoffel's 'voog' then who was Christoffel's family?

Paul Roux was married to Claudine Seugnet from Saintonge. In French Seugnet is pronounced Senaye or Senai. Is this mere coincidence of is there more to this than meets the eye?

The suffix 'ment' in French was used to express kinship for young male descendants and generally means 'of/from'.

It stands to reason that a child who loses a parent onboard a ship during a voyage or orphaned by misfortune ... is in most cases taken-in by a female relative with ties to the biological mother or father.

The name used by Paul Roux, paternal sponsor of Chrstoffel Snyman and school master of the Huguenot community in Drakenstein, is the earliest written reference available to us. A literate man, Paul Roux wrote Senayement, why Senaye-ment?

The spelling of Christoffel's surname from the earliest documents are as follows:
- C. Senayement - His wedding on July 1689
- C. Senaymant - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 22.07.1695
- C. Seniman - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 01.08.1697
- C. Senaymant - Daughter's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 25.10.1699
- C. Senaiman - Son's baptism entry in Drakenstein registry on 24.07.1701

source: A.J. Kannemeyer ‘Hugenote Familieboek’, p.270-273

Here are some early sources that contradict the current story we know:

1.) The Huguenot Society of London (p.207, Volume 5, 1898) mentions a family in South Africa named Senaymant.

2.) In the book 'De Afkomst der Boeren' by Dr. H.T. Colenbrander (1902) states that Christoffel Snijman was born in the Netherlands.

3.) The best source is from the Drakenstein Church archives and can be found in A.J. Kannemeyer's 'Hugenote Famieboek' (1940).

The following source shows that Groot Catrijn had a son name Christoffel:http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/e651.htm

Is there proof that the 'Christoffel' mentioned in the above baptism entry refers to Christoffel Snyman? If there is hard evidence that proves this then we can end the discussion and call it a day.

I am certain that the fist mention of Christoffel Snyman in any tangible sense dates to his marriage entry in the Drakenstein Church registry.

The First Fifty Years project states that the same woman, namely Angela van Bengale (Mooi Ansela), baptised both Christoffel Snyman and Christoffel's 8th child, Susanna Snyman.http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g6/p6312.htm

This is incorrect and is the only connection between Groot Catrijn and Christoffel Snyman, albeit a false connection as these two witnesses were in all likelihood not the same person.

Let me explain:

The witness in the baptism record for Groot Catrijn's son Christoffel was named Angila. This Angila was Mooi Ansela (*c.1630), the close friend of Groot Catrijn.

On the other hand, we have Christoffel Snyman's daughter Susanna's baptism record that mentions a witness named Ancelaar van Bengale (A.J. Kannemeyer, 1940). This was Ansela Hanselaar (van Bengale) (*c.1665), the wife of Lorenz Campher.

This is evident as Susanna Snyman's husband, Jacob Kutzer, was a widower, previously married to Cornelia Helm who was the mother-in-law of Johanna Catharina Campher (*c.1707), the grandaughter of Ansela Hanselaar van Bengale & Lorenz Campher. Lorenz Campher served with Christoffel Snyman in the Stellenbosch militia (c.1703-1705).

What happened? Where are my posts? Thanks June, appreciate your help! The counter-argument is valid or so it seems. If there is no documented proof that Paul Roux was the 'voog' of Christoffel then the Seugnet =Senaye hypothesis has no basis. It would be helpful to find out where the Paul Roux 'voog' notion originated from. I'd appreciate it if those managers with research skills could let us know should they find some info on the subject. Thank-you!

Cuzzin Alex

What does VOOG mean exactly please ?

Barbara, a 'voog' is a legal guardian and in the case of an adult child could be called upon to sign as a parental figure on behalf of the groom/bride's family in the marriage registry.

Thank you ALEX !
I thought so but wanted to make sure.

I have been doing some more digging about Christoffel Snyman. According to Suid-Afrikaanse Geslagsregisters GISA p. 505 the following:
SNYMAN
Hans Christoffel (Christoph) Snijder (Schneider/Snijman) a. as soldaat v. Heidelberg, Rhynse-Palts, Duitsland voor 1665, na Robbeneiland verban, geen rekord gevind na 1668, het voorkind gehad by Catharina, vrygestelde kompanjieslavin, v. Paliacatta, provinsie Dravida, Indie (ook bekend as Groot Catrijn en Catharina v. Bengale) a. 21.2.1657 aan boord "Prins Willem", bej. ~Kaapstad 29.4.1668. Catharina x Kaapstad 20.12.1671 Anthonij v. Bengale (ook bekend as Anthonij v. Japan en Anthonij de Chinees) bej. ~ Kaapstad 12.9.1670 eerste "vryswarte" wat eiendom besit in Tafelvallei. Oorl. c. 1682. Met die uitsondering v. Christoffel, sterf die hele gesin in 'n tragedie tussen Des 1682 en Feb. 1683.

CHISTOFFEL SNYMAN ~ Kaapstad 9.3.1669. Oorl. c. 1706, stamvader v.d. Snymans in Suid-Afrika (sien Hoge se bydraes p. 129), boer "Sandvliet", Groot Drakenstein x c. 1689 Marguerite-Therese DE SAVOYE *c. 1671 a. 1688 saam met ouers as Hugenote-vlugtelinge uit Aeth, Vlaandere, aan boord "Oosterlandt" oorl. c. 1735 d.v. Jacques de Savoye en Marie Madeleine le Clercq v. Doornik (sy xx Henning Viljoen) Erkenning: Mansell Upham - "In Hevigen Woede..." Capensis Sept. 1997 en Nov. 1997
Maria

Thank you Maria This proves Christoffel was the only survivor and therefore had a VOOG he was 13 years old when family died. 1682-1669.

I haven't had time to go to the archives since this debate began, but from Maria's input it seems as if there were two CS's, one who was involved with Groot Catrijn and the other who married De Savoy, and that the latter is then the SV/PROG of the Snymans?

Thank you Maria as well. That is how I also have it. Frans as jy kans kry kyk tog. This is my direct oupa on Marnewick side.

A few comments. On the understanding these are for personal research only, I can provide scanned copies of the Capensis articles.

I was in the Cape Archives last week and photographed the estate papers of Anthonie van Bengale, father of Christoffel Snijman. I have yet to look at them in detail.

The information in SA Genealogies is of doubtful value.

I thought Anthony was a free black, not a burger.

The origins in "Afkomst de Boeren" are taken from CC de Villiers work. I would not rely on them.

Keith Meintjes

Richard Ball has suggested that I add these notes (his) to this discussion-

Christoffel Snyman
I have now read through the fragmentary estate papers of Anthony Janse van Bengale the in Cape Archives class MOOC-14-212 and I have re-read Mansell Upham's article 'In hevigen woede' (Capensis, 1977 nos 3 and 4) which reconstructs the life of Catryn van Palliacatte and details his theory that Christoffel Snyman was her son.

Records of the Cape Weeskamer (Orphan Chamber) of this period (apart from letters in and out) only survive very partially and what there are are fragmentary, bits of paper, often rat or moth eaten. There is a folder with such fragmentary deceased estate papers of Anthonij Janse van Bengale. Among these is a receipt of payment to Johannes Smit his salary due as schoolmaster, for teaching 'reading, writing and learning' to the surviving orphan of Anthonij van Bengale named Christoffel, dated in August 1683.

At this time Christoffel was presumably a minor and his inheritance was managed by the Weeskamer until his majority. The Weeskamer kept detailed records of their accounts, interim payments, applications and minutes of their meetings, but unfortunately, apart from 4 isolated years of accounts (1698, 1718, 1719 and 1727) their records (apart from letters in and out) only survive for 1696-98 and 1723 onwards for the minutes and about 1770 for the accounts, so we are unable to find anything there.

In the same fragmentary estate papers of Anthonij Janse van Bengale, are two receipts signed by Christoffel Snyman himself, dated 1690 and 1691, for receiving into his own hands the money from the estate. He can be assumed by then to have been a major, entitled to administer his own affairs. Such majority could be achieved by attaining the age of 25 years or by marriage. Since we know that Christoffel married at just about that date, it was presumably his marriage that gave him majority.

Incidentally Christoffel's signature is a beautiful example of a well written Chancery (legal) hand of that time, presumably taught him by Johannes Smit, the voorleser or possibly krankbesoeker, I can't remember which (not the J Smit, husband of Adriana Tol), shown below (*See note below CJB) on one of the receipts he signed for monies received from the Weeskamer as part of his inheritance.

Mansell Upham's account adds many more sources to the above, concluding that Christoffel Snijman was the stepson of Anthonij van Bengale who married Cathrijn van Paliacatte in 1679 when she had already two of her children living with her (VC muster rolls). The father of Christoffel Snyman he believes to have been Hans Christoffel Schneider who is documented to have had an on/off relationship with Cathrijn van Paliacatte. There is a slave baptism of a son Christoffel to Cathrijn van Paliacatte (NGK Cape Town 1669 - transcribed eGGSA web site).

For slave baptisms fathers are almost never named but it was the general practice at that time, and later, for an illegitimate child to assume his or her father's surname where this was known.

In my opinion Mansell's conclusions are convincing. This makes the best sense of all the isolated pieces of information that have survived, carefully detailed in Mansell Upham's article.

But this is a theory – there is no conclusive proof possible. I would, therefore, suggest, in genealogical write-ups, adding a note to Christoffel Snyman’s details referring to his circumstances and Mansell Upham’s theory rather than allocating him a father and mother when both are open to discussion.

Richard Ball
richard.ball@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk
Cape Archives, MOOC 14 212 (with thanks to Keith Meintjes)
Capensis, 1997 parts 3 and 4, Mansell Upham, In Hewigen Woede

*** Note CJB - I have added the image of the signature to Christoffel Snijman

A SNYMAN could also be a BUTCHER, for in Dutch
Snijden is the verb for dividing a cow f.i. so also 'Slager - Vleeschhouwer - Beenhouwer - Snijder - etc. are from a crafts/profession a person could manage all over the world, for he/she only needed a knife. Just an suggestion to this discussion. Groeten, jeannette.

Chancery = Kanselarij of GRIFFIE, de department waar de GRIFFIERS registreren wie er geboren/gehuwd/gestorven is - Kanselarij means a -christian?- registration?
Weeskamer = WeesHUIS in Dutch
Voorleser = predikant of onderwijzer die hem waarschijnlijk heeft leren LEZEN & SCHRIJVEN, want hij kon een prachtige handtekening zetten onder een officieel document
Krankbesoeker = Zieken-verzorger [in German KRANK=ZIEK=ILL]
SCHNEIDER = snijder in dutch = iemand die snijdt = slager?
Baptism = doop, de KERKe-lijke registratie van een geboorte, so he was a CHRISTIAN ?