Standing Deer - Children of Elinipsico and Standing Deer

Hi Robert

Take a look at the profile overview notes here:

Thomas Bailey Christian

A few months ago a wonderful researcher contributed some time & study to look into the questions around his parentage.

There's one "fact" -

" DNA tests suggest a Isle of Wight/ European background for Thomas Bailey Christian ... "

So whatever his ancestry was, it did include Europeans. I'm not sure, given the time, place & culture, that that's particularly significant.

I have a similar irony (although not direct lines). A cousin line is likely from the Cherokee warrior Dragging Canoe ... And the Wautaga NC / Tennessee area first settlers he hated.

Thanks for directing me to the notes on Thomas Christian! Regarding the DNA tests, I haven't looked to see how far back anyone has traced the Bailey line, but a quick check online does seem to indicate that there were Baileys on the Isle of Man in the 18th century. What I know about DNA - and what we can tell from it - would fit on the head of a pin, but if Thomas's ancestry includes Elinipsico, then it would seems that Standing Deer's father would be the most probable source for an Isle of Man connection.

I'll leave this one to the experts, though will make it a point to check back periodically in case new evidence comes to light - one way or another!

I could be entirely wrong (not much ahead of you on DNA for ancestry) but I believe if it's through the maternal line, native American biological markers can "fragment" rather quickly - 5 gens and it would be hard to tell (DNA people don't shoot me now!)

And you have the complications of adoption, not only of Thomas Christian & his siblings, but within Shawnee culture itself.

My personal opinion (so far) is that was likely part native but pinpointing exact parents is still a very difficult task.

I am a/the researcher who put in a fair amount of time on the question of the origin of Thomas Bailey Christian. Nancy Bailey Christian is my 3rd great aunt by marriage. Nancy was TBC's granddaughter.

The way my research stands now is that individuals among the Shawnee were to have sent me information about any orphans that are known to be candidates for Thomas and his other 'siblings' who, it is claimed were adopted by the white settlers. I no longer hold much hope that they will send me anything. I tend to doubt that there is definitive information particularly because of the Native American system of oral history. This is not to say that their research can be seen as credible... It has been extremely revealing to me and I am grateful for their scholarship and good will.

Some/many blind alleys have been created in modern times by bad scholarship by people with ulterior motives (to put it mildly).
One thing we, as impartial researchers, may need to recognize and accept is just how hard it has now become to really know about biological relationships from this time of turmoil. What we sometimes call marriage on the 18th century frontier often involved kidnapping and what we call rape today.

It was a situation that involved many massacres as well as pitched battles. Further, add to this the interest of adults who wanted to protect the well-being of surviving infants and toddlers. It becomes nearly impossible in many cases to find real biological parents of refugees of tender age.
It also has become apparent to me that as such children came of age, they wanted to assimilate into their adoptive cultures and may have 'spun' the stories of their origins....

Accurate conclusions in TBC research are quite hard to draw. No one I know of has a reputable work on this specific issue. It is pretty clear that the moniker, "Kumshaka or Kumskaka" was assigned to him recently. He did not refer to himself as such, as far as I've been able to determine. We do not know his heritage.
Standing Deer Bailey is not recognized as a real person by the Shawnee. I wish I could find an original source on her existence other than her being an artifact on on-line trees.
The historical Kumshaka (related to Tecumseh) was not an orphan & died in Canada as a younger man once the Shawnee were overcome in the Ohio Valley.
Elinipsico and siblings and siblings may have 'shared' sexual partners that may have yielded offspring.

Without question, a Chief Cornstalk -> Elinipsico -> TBC lineage could be pure invention, or otherwise the results of shoddy research and/or poorly drawn conclusions. Certainly it's clear that if any hard evidence exists, it's going to be exceedingly hard to come by.

The above said, if we can accept that Standing Deer Bailey was a real flesh-and-blood person (I've only barely scratched the surface, but I've yet to find her name in any scholarly texts), it does seem as if certain facets of the story are supported (or at least hinted at) through both Thomas's name and the names of his children.

In my experience, there is often at least a kernel of truth (ooh, kernel, Cornstalk... sorry!) to the oral traditions that get handed down from one generation to the next. Having ruled out a Native American connection on all other maternal lines of ascent, my intuition tells me TBC is the guy. Frankly, any relationship to Chief Cornstalk
seems a stretch, but it does appear there's evidence of an adoption, the number of generations back fits exactly what my grandmother had indicated, and claims that Standing Deer was half Cherokee also fits well contextually with what I'd been told.

I think I read, too, that Hokolesqua's wife was Cherokee, so should there be any truth to the Elinipsico connection, familial claims that I have some Cherokee blood coursing through my veins may get an added boost there, as well.

Whatever the situation with TBC, it still strikes me that these genealogical pursuits are a win-win no matter what. You get things right, you learn something about your family's heritage, and perhaps also yourself in the process. Yet even if you occasionally find yourself barking up the wrong tree, oh, the history lessons to be had!

Many thanks for the time and effort you've put into your TBC research, Mike.

Mike, given the time you've spent looking into all this, it occurs that there are a few questions I'd love to ask you. However, they're probably ill-suited to a public forum.

I'm new to Geni and unsure about all the options available for communicating. Would you be amenable to swapping an email or two offline, or is there another way we can communicate privately? Thanks!

Never mind - I just found the 'Send Mail' link.

Robert:
It seems that there are so many variations on genealogy of Elinipsico offspring.

Would love to follow up with you. We could even talk by phone.

regards,
MIke

http://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000019968024317#600000001...

Robert:
Take a look at this tree above (url).
It incorporates a modern Shawnee view in a genealogical format.
Let me now what you think.

Notice that the tree peters out and cannot identify many supposed offspring.

I'd love it if we could collaborate on this.
I've reached a point of stalemate.

= Mike vB

Regarding a possible collaboration on the Cornstalk tree, the interest is there, but the time at present unfortunately is not. Keep that door cracked open a bit and I might eventually come barreling in, ready to lend a hand!

Hello I am very new to geni I have started my research on ancestry.com last year. I really need some help on info on Thomas Bailey Kumskaka Christian Cornstalk
as far as I can tell he was my 5th great grandfather on my fathers side. Any help would really be appreciated. thank you Jackie Christian Ramey. p.s Ancestry has been no help!!!!

Hi Jackie

Welcome to Geni!

If you read the information collected in Geni's Thomas Bailey Christian's profile, we've been able to eliminate as "unlikely" a variety of myths associated with him.

Still investigating but I think we're looking at "unknown Native American child adopted by the Christian family." There are some possible ways to narrow it down, and your input is more than welcome.

In the meantime - build your Geni tree from yourself until you find an existing historic profile. Then merge to connect with the existing shared tree. Contact any manager of a profile or post in this discussion with questions or for assistance.

Collectively we will all learn more.

There's so much I have no clue where to start! lol I really want to do this for my father he's a proud man and think he likes to hear what I come up with. I do hear alot of stories from him and my mamaw she marries into the family and I have the old family bible from my papaw Robert J Christian.
Thank you for writing me back and keep in touch :}

In any research on Thomas Bailey Christian it is important to realize that the Shawnee history clearly comes down on the following view: Kumshaka is not a "Cornstalk". Kumshaka died in Canada at age c. 25 years... He is not the same person as Thomas Bailey Christian...
I currently believe that TBC never referred to himself as Kumshaka... a modern person seems to have "invented" that.

I am a 3rd generation great grandson of Thomas Bailey Christian. Mastin Harmon Skootekitehi "Fireheart" Christian was my 2nd generation great grandfather and Mastin Dillion Christian Christian was my great grandfather. Cosby(i) C. Christian was my grandmother. It was a male direct line to TBC until my grandmother. I would like to take a DNA test so any information on a good test let me know. I also have pictures of some Christians one being Nancy saying she was an aunt. I am not a computer guy and do not know much about sharing them but let me know if interested.

It is my understanding that unbroken male line DNA tests establish the most interesting linkage... Please do summarize your findings here once you've done your test... And then there's the mitochondrial DNA testing for unbroken maternal lines.
Try google for more information..

Photo can be scanned and then uploaded as profile pictures. Just click the blank photo icon on each profile and follow the screens.
Good luck!