Fur Trader

de la Ronde LETTERS - Ida Schneider to J. C. Bonenfant
From the Nipigon Historical Museum Archives

March 24, 1964

Mr. J.C. Bonenfant
Bibliothecaire
Hotel du Gouvernement
Quebec City
Canada

Dear Mr. Bonenfant,

I take the liberty to address this letter to you in regard to some historical enquiries.

Introducing myself, I like to inform you that I came to Canada in 1927, originally from Austria and Italy and - outside of the nine years residence in Montreal - I have been living in Toronto. For the past 20 years I have been reading a great deal on Canadian History and, especially in connection with the Fur Trade in the Upper Lakes. I came across some interesting historic material, as yet unpublished.

It concerns the life of two Fur Traders, namely, Louis Denys de la Ronde and Charles Francois Denys de la Ronde, Count of Thibaudiere.

Their grandfather was Louis Denys de la Ronde a Chevalier de Saint-Louis, who built the first vessel in Lake Superior (1733 ) and who died in Quebec City in 1741.

Their father ( one of the sons of the above named Louis was Pierre Francois Paul, born 14 juillot 1723 at l'Ile-St. Jean, died at La Collo under Abercrombie. He was married to Marguerite Susanne de Celles-Duclos in 1749 in Montreal.

Louis Denys de la Ronde, the Fur Trader, ( and son of Pierre Francois Paul ) made a Will in Montreal in 1797 in which he left his worldly possessions to an Indian wife ( common law) in the Lake Nipissing District, Ontario. He had 10 children with her and in the Will he named the 10 children.

However, Louis Denys de la Ronde must have recovered his health because in July 1800 he married in Montreal a widow, her name was Louise King and with whom he had five sons. He died in 1808 and was buried in St. Anne de Bellevue. The five sons were:

Louis, born 1801 ( of Nipigon)
Charles-Francois ( named after the uncle) born 1803
Michel-Gaspard, born 1804
Pierre-Alexandre, born 1806
and
Joseph-Adolphe, born 1808

Louis Denys de la Ronde owed his brother Charles- Francois with whom he also dealt with in the Fur Trade, a total of L 11,355.10, this includes a loan of L 9031 . A signed statement for this amount against the estate of Louis is in the Courthouse.

The said Louise King, Widow, was appointed tutor and Charles-Francois (1763-1840) the uncle, was present in Montreal to the deed. The one son of Louis and Louise King who is of special interest in this research is Michel-Gaspard, born in 1804, who became a notary and practiced law in Avonteuil (not sure of spelling as the copy is blurry - ed). His life is described in the following two books:

a) "History of the Counties of Argenteuil, Quebec, and Prescott, Ont." ( from the earliest settlement to the present) by C. Thomas 1896, Montreal.

b) "Memories of Old St. Andrews and Historical Sketches of the Seigniory of Argenteuil" , by B. N. Wales, M.D. copyright 1934 Watchman Press, Lachute, P.Q.

In the above two books, Michel Gaspard de Coligny Denys de la Ronde is described as a highly intelligent lawyer, well known for his witty political lampoons etc. etc. He was a friend of Laurier. Michel Gaspard married in 1829 and had 10 children, he died age 78 in 1896.

Charles Francois Denys de la Ronde. He was born June 9, 1763, in what was then known as l'Assumption du Detroit ( now Sandwich, Windsor) his father being then an officer in that Fort. He too became a free Fur Trader in the Upper Lakes, perhaps, at first, with the North-West Company. He also had a family of several children with an Indian woman. However, he brought his family to Montreal, and on the 22nd of June 1818 he had his marriage and children legitimized, baptized, in OKA, Parish of Lac des Deux Moutagnes, District Terrebonne. He died in 1840 in Penetanguishene and his descendants are still living and fairly numerous.

About thirty years ago a direct descendant of this family of Charles Francois came from the USA to Montreal and had a visit with Mr. Massicotte. He told her about that lawyer de la Ronde in St. Andrews East, that he had carried on a long litigation with the Sulpician Order in regard to some family property, but that , in the end he lost out on account of lack of proper evidence. Mr. Massicotte also said that the case was well known in Montreal and, in case the visitor was interested, his son-in-law, a lawyer, would be willing to look into the matter.

A year or two later, a member of the same family made a trip to St. Andrews East and there met Eva de la Ronde, then about 70 years old and daughter of the late notary Michel-Gaspard. She too confirmed the above story.

A month ago I came across in the Toronto Reference Library three booklets with the following titles:

A) Report, relating to the Affairs of the OKA Indians, made to the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs by Rev. William Scott, Ottawa, 22 Jan. 1883, printed by MacLean, Roger & Co.

B) A Contribution to a proper understanding of the OKA question and a help to its equitable settlement by BETA, Montreal 1879

C) An historical notice on the difficulties arisen between the Seigneurs of Saint Sulpice and certain Indians of OKA , Montreal.

The interesting part in these 3 booklets is that it mentions that third and fourth influential parties were using the simple Indians in this litigation. However, no name is quoted who these parties were?

My question now is : Does the above refer to Gaspard de Coligny Denys de la Ronde, it looks as if this is the same case?

It seems, as if Charles Francois Denys de la Ronde also enters in this picture, because he left POWER OF ATTORNEY to the Hon. Michel Chartier de Lotbiniere on August 13th , 1808 before Notary Public in Montreal. With this document Charles Francois claims his rights of succession to the Denys estate.

My question is

a) Where can I read about this succession and

b) Exactly, what was the case Gaspard de Coligny de la Ronde against the Sulpicians Mr. Massicotte spoke of?

A year or so ago, there appeared an article in the Daily Paper again referring to the properties the Sulpicians are holding. Is this the same case?

It may also be of interest to you in regard to the Ontario Denys de la Ronde's that an article appeared in the Toronto Telegram of December 28, 1950, stating the case of 3 Indians in the Nipigon Region. They were descendants of the following :

Louis Denys de la Ronde, born in St. Ann's (?).... 1803

joined the North-West Company in ...1818
Joined the Hudson's Bay Company in...1821
Served at the Nipigon Post ...1851--68

died at the Nipigon Post ... August 1868

Although there seems to be an error in his birth year ( the above information was given from the Hudson's Bay Records in Winnipeg ) I believe the above Louis Denys de la Ronde was the son of Louise King and Louis Denys, who died in St. Anne de Bellevue in 1808. The Louis was buried at Sault Ste. Marie and in the Historical Room in the new Armories of that city there is a broken tombstone with the following inscription :

"Sacred to the memory of Louis Denys de la Ronde departed this life August 22, 1868, aged 68 years. He was for a period of 18 years in the service of the Hon. Hudson's Bay Company and was one of their most zealous and faithful officers."

The Louis of the Sault left seven legitimate children ( he had married an Indian woman ) and appointed 3 trustees in his Will. The half-Indian descendants showed that this estate had been turned over to the third trustee, a certain Mr. Colin Rankin in 1881, but the Half-Indians never got the money. The article states that the Lakehead lawyer (?) in Fort William - Port Arthur investigated these claims for two years. How it ended I don't know. These descendants had French documents.

Before I close this letter, I would like to state that I have been conducting this research on and off as a hobby, I have no personal financial gains from it, I was simply fascinated by the story, peopled with French Nobility, Fur Traders, Indians, Sulpicians and a host of descendants. The history of the Denys de la Ronde family has never been written, some of the descendants went even far into Western Canada with exploratory expeditions.

Prof. Clayton Gray, who teaches history at the George Williams College in Montreal, read some of the material I have gathered. He thinks I have enough for a most interesting book on never before published Canadiana. This should really be written by a French -Canadian, perhaps under a Canadian Council Grant!!

If you would be kind enough to answer my question contained in this letter, please wrsite in the French Language which I read very well but cannot claim the same for my own French writing. Italian and German were my own bilingual languages and I have retained them to the full. Please excuse that my letter is in English.

Hoping to hear from you, I remain

Sincerely yours (Mrs) Ida Schneider.

Posted by B. Brill, Curator at 11:01
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2 comments:

Gilbert Deschamps21 March 2014 19:11

My father, Paul W. Deschamps, was the great-grandson of Louis Denys Delaronde through his daughter Mrs. Pierre Deschamps (nee Louise Delaronde).
Sincerely,
Gilbert Deschamps (Barrister & Solicitor)
Reply
Anonymous9 September 2014 09:07

My father Arthur Rice born 1910 in Kahnawake Que is the grt grandson of Paul Nioherasa @Marie Konaties My dads grandmother was Charlotte Agathe Kanokwashon DeLaRonde b 1844 Charlotte had one child my grandmother Mary Anne Karonhiaronkwas DeLaRonde Stuart Rice born 1875 in Kahnawake she was a Illegitimate child Judy Rice
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About Me

B. Brill, Curator

View my complete profile

There is a massive history about the Laronde family and its fur trading history. My links to the family are of two kinds, GENEALOGICAL and GEOGRPHICAL/ARCHAEOLOGICAL, in both cases to one man - Charles Denys de la Ronde (1763-1840) who Geni reports is my 17th cousin four times removed. See Charles Denys de la Ronde.

Impressively Geni's reported genealogical relationship path from me to this Charles Denys de la Ronde extends to our common relative in medieval England, a certain Mathilde de Clare (1181-1213) who Geni reports is my 16th grandmother. See Mathilde de Clare, Lady Bramber . I have already studied 17th Grandma Mathilde for other reasons that I will not go into here.

The point here is that if I can prove through DNA testing that Mathilde de Clare indeed is my 16th Grandmother ..... and Judy Rice who is a descendant of Charles Denys de la Ronde can prove through her own DNA test that she also is a relative of this same Mathilde de Clare of 800+ years ago ....then we will have proof of a relationship between Judy Rice and William Arthur Allen, and not at all through the person in Massachusetts who Geni currently is reporting as our common ancestor (a Geni relationship which I believe is fictitious).

Have I lost you on this Judy?

However, it is the second (more easily proved) GEOGRAPHICAL/ARCHAEOLOGICAL relationship between Charles Denys de la Ronde (!763-1840) and William Arthur Allen which may be more important for both Judy Rice and me (and many, many othefr people. That is because of the long abandoned La Ronde trading post at Shebeshekong Bay half way between Penetanguishe (where old Charlie died in 1840) and the mouth of the French River (Where there is another ruins of a trading post of this period). Indeed the entire Muskoka and Parry Sound Districts, long before they were so named, were called LaRonde District. The LaRonde Trading post in Shebeshekong Bay at the centre of LaRonde District of 200 years ago is a registered archaeological site with the Ontario Ministry of Tourism, Culture and Sport so artifacts from the site are available for study at the West Parry Sound Museum in Parry Sound, Ontario. I know the LaRonde site well from being both a long time property owner at Shebeshekong Bay and an archaeologist who has studied the site.

We have much to share about the fur trading story of 200 years ago and the role of Charles Denys de la Ronde in that story, whether he proves to be a relative or not.

Mathilde de Clare is my 22 grt grandmother http://www.geni.com/path/Judy-Rice+is+related+to+Mathilde-de-Clare?...

My 18th Gr. grandmother http://www.geni.com/path/Elwin-Nickerson+is+related+to+Mathilde-de-...

My grandmother Marie Anne Karonhiaronkwas DeLaronde Rice b 1875 @ My grandfather Israel Tekarihoken Rice b 1870 were related to each other they needed dispensation from the Archbishop of Montreal to get married their marriage took place April 13;1896 in Caughnawaga Que now known as Kahnawake Que i have their marriage document

Geni says that Mathilde de Clare is my 22nd great grandmother.

By the way, she was born and died long long before there was a UK.

> if I can prove through DNA testing that Mathilde de Clare indeed is my 16th Grandmother

There is an obstacle here. At the current state of technology, DNA tests can only identify likely relatives within about the past 5 or 6 generations, and possible relatives just a bit further back.

Supposedly my 25th G.Grandmother.
http://www.geni.com/path/Mary-Boyce+is+related+to+Mathilde-de-Clare...

Justin,
1. Thanks for the clarification about the technological obstacle of DNA testing limited to only 5 or 6 generations back. I stand corrected.

2. Judy Rice has another good example of lines in Geni reduced to a solitary line because of the limitations within Geni's technical capability to document all lines where intermarriage of cousins occurs. This is a massive shortcoming of Geni that leads unsuspecting readers to false conclusions, sinuous relationship paths and false reports. This is another Geni illusion that leads to massive misconceptions and delusions by readers who believe what they are reading since they do not know otherwise.

3. Mahnomen, sometimes spelled "wabanomin" (Baraga 1878:213) or "Manomin", is the Anishinaabemowin word for "wild rice". The word in contemporary times sometimes is the given name assigned by parents of newborn males.

4. Mahnomen is a current community in Wisconsin. http://www.mahnomenmn.org/
When American government policy of the 1830's was to push Potawatomi people further west out of the Great Lakes area and onto the plains where a different lifeway was practised and where the territory was occupied by traditional enemies, many Potawatomi people accepted the invitation of Chief Aissance of Beausoleil First Nation in Georgian Bay of Lake Huron to come and live with the Beasoleil people. In modern times many of these Ontario Potawatomi people and their Chippewa friends and colleagues return regularly to Wisconsin for "Ceremony", a midewiwin tradition. See https://gct3.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/midewiwin.pdf and http://www.tolatsga.org/pota.html .

5. Remember the words "Chippewa, Otchipwe, Ojibway, and Ojibwa" are variations of spelling of the same word so it is senseless to ask, as a judge did in one court case, to ask which one is right.

6. There are so many people named Thomas Rice that a check is required to determine whether the Thomas Rice (b Apr. 25, 1737) documented by Judy Rice is the correct Thomas Rice. I am suspicious. Do you have a comment, Justin?

7. I see that others have picked up on Geni's reports of their links to Mathilde de Clare. Geni says she is my 16th great grandmother. For Elwin Nickerson Geni says she is his 18th GG. For Judy Rice and Eldon Clark Geni says she is a 22nd GG. And for Mary Lee Boyce, who wisely uses the word "supposedly" Geni says Mathilde is her 25th GG. When living researchers report a range of 9 generations (16th GG to 25th GG) I am highly suspicious that there are some faulty relationship paths here. Justin, for the date of Mathilde's lifetime which of these reports is most plausible?

8. Eldon Clark is quite right that Mathilde was born and died long before there was a UK. I suspect that Geni's practice of giving postal codes and overrides to the correct label for "place of birth" and "Place of death" is what leads researchers who merge files to create this error for all of us. Is there a way of fixing this, Justin?

To all who are posting in this discussion:
The big benefit of the "Fur Trader" discussion is to talk about traders, trading posts and their links to those LaRonde people who are listed in Geni. Let's get the discussion focused on that.

William, I need to beg off on most of this. I'm just a drive-by commenter.

> a check is required to determine whether the Thomas Rice (b Apr. 25, 1737) documented by Judy Rice is the correct Thomas Rice

Time to enlist the support of Geni's many experts. Eldon, Erica, and Judy herself.

> for the date of Mathilde's lifetime which of these reports is most plausible?

Any of them. All of them. At least in my opinion. She lived 800 years ago. One generation more, or one generation less, per century is enough to account for the different number.

> Is there a way of fixing this, Justin?

Yep, and anyone can do it. It's an MP but the field isn't locked. Just open it up and manually edit Location Details.

Re: Judy Rice's ancestor from Massachusetts.

This is an early DNA success story, and a terrific one. I'll leave it to Judy to point to the exact profiles, but I can give you the proof we accept (by consensus) for the Geni tree:

=====

http://www.edmund-rice.org/haplotype.htm

Two other members, 13364 and 24143, have a rather unconventional link in addition to the DNA evidence. In 1704, four Rice boys descended from Edmund were captured by Mohawks at Marlborough (later Westborough), Massachusetts, and carried off to Canada. One was ransomed, but the other three remained and were adopted into the Mohawk tribe. Many years later, one returned to visit Westborough, but he no longer spoke English and had to talk to his relatives through an interpreter. The contact was not maintained, and so there is no collected record of the descendants of these expatriates. Nonetheless, Rice remains a relatively common surname among the Mohawks to this day, and both of these participants are Mohawk Rices. The two match each other 25/25 and match 24/25 with Group 1. ....

======

Erica, thanks for stepping in and providing these details. I need to take a closer look at my Rice ancestry but the story of capture by Mohawks leads to many potential avenues of inquiry. In 1704 Canada extended much further into present day USA than it does now since it was long before the end of the French Regime. Also 1704 was a very short time after the Great Peace of Montreal of 1701 which heralded much more extensive movement of several Native groups. Since the Rice boys were captured by Mohwks in 1704 and Thomas Rice was born in the area of modern day Wisconsin 33 years later (1737), many questions arise.
1. Did Mohawks occupy "Wisconsin" in 1737?
2. What Native language was the returning Rice boy speaking when an interpreter was required?
3. Were one or more of the Rice boys sold or traded to a non-Mohawk nation further west?
4. Is Thomas Rice (b 1737) a son or grandson of one of the Rice boys captured in 1704?
5. What can John Tanner teach us about our genealogical and related history work?
I have other questions but will pose them in separate posts. The extensive information in http://www.edmund-rice.org/haplotype.htm suggests threads of inquiry well beyond the scope of "Fur Trader" Charles Francois Dennis DeLaRonde (Thibaudiere)1763-1840, Judy Rice's ancestor mentioned in the original post of this "Fur Trader" discussion. http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/d/e/s/Thelma-Deschamps-/WEBSITE-0001/U...

In 1704 (the time of the kidnapping of the Rice boys at Marlborough, MA) many of my own Emes/Eames ancestors and related families in my maternal line were living nearby. Some of the Eames married other Eames. Geni researchers may see their own potential family connections to the Rices by zooming in on a map of the Marlborough area west of Boston at places like Framingham and Sudbury. There will be far more relationship paths than Geni provides to date so study of the geography of the area and identification of marriages of cousins will help to identify relationship paths that are not yet documented. For those who are interested check the map at https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.3287866,-71.48945,11z

John Wolcott, IV

Thanks Elwin. I foung my relationship to John Wolcott, IV and a Gateway ancestor from nearby Woburn who was a gateway to other people but now I have him down as a double gateway leading to two different target groups including to John Wolcott, IV. Now I have started collecting my gateways to other "CBIs" There is a list of 83 others at the profiles link of "Captured by Indians" http://www.geni.com/projects/Captured-by-Indians/18623 . Our work with these profiles will help with the development of family trees of Indigenous people. Thanks for sharing.

Adam Bland, Skinner to the Queen

Adam was highly placed in the Skinners' Company, the medieval guild that prepared pelts brought in by hunters and trappers. In 1560 he was chosen Skinner to Queen Elizabeth I, a post he held until his death. He was succeeded by his son Peter, who held the position until 1618 when he was named Master Warden.

Blands are relatives on my father's side. Wonder if Adam is closely related to Isaac Bland?

Should have typed Blann instead.

William Arthur Allen glad that profile was of some interest to you. I have been working on these connections and others , taken by Indians in my family for years , and now with new DNA testing it is starting to come together. BUT DNA testing still has a long way to go, even though it has improved in the last few years tremendously.

Mons Cadeau a.k.a. Mathurin Cadot (sixth Great Grandfather)----- Charles Cadotte (fifth Great GrandFather).