John Warren - Help - parent conflict, too many wives, too many children ....

@ I think they are the same person they were both born on the same day May1,1585,Nayland Suffolk England and died the same day Dec 13,1667 in Watertown,Middlesex, Massachusetts i think this immposible that they were born on the same day and died on the same day this was put in wrong and their are two many wives her are my links http://www.geni.com/path/Judy+Rice+is+related+to+John+Warren?from=6... this link is wrong her is my link to John Warren of Boston http://www.geni.com/path/Judy+Rice+is+related+to+John+Warren+of+Bos... i think this is the right one Judy Rice

If I read the will and the rest correctly....

John married Margaret Clair/Clear.....ONLY....she died 1662; he died 1667.

Children in the will are:
1) Daniel m. Mary...had son Daniel
2.) John m. Michal (Michelle?) Blois....had son Richard Bloyse
3.) Mary m. Bigelow
4.) Elizabeth m. James Knapp.

Three older children were born and died in England.

I would set up the children 1st and account for them.....

He hardly had time to marry more than once, I think, from time of Margaret's death and his own.....

This line has been researched exhaustively in the past by professional genealogists. That is, the line of John Warren born in Nayland and who married Mary Bigelow in Watertown, Mass.
It is also well known that there were some Warrens that emigrated to another area, RI?, who were not close relatives of Johns and whose lineage cannot be traced back to the Middle Ages. Since there were numerous Warrens in Chesire, all most probably descended from the ancient Earls, but who early on became cadet branches, researching Cheshire families would make more sense. We don't even have the Massey family complete on Geni yet, who were a HUGE clan who married with the Warrens for hundreds of years, as well as the Davenport, Bulkeley, Cheadles. Edward Massey was a famous Parliamentary Army leader ( and obviously a Puritan) who is not yet here. The Grosvenor line is also incomplete and Edward married an Anne Grosvenor who is not here. The Sully family is not here. So I think the answer lies in not rehashing old lineages but in finding as yet hidden links, which requires research frequently outside of reading genealogies, but very accurately estimated by military service and land deeds, or parish records. I have found many of these genealogies to have errors when cross checked with dates of Service to the King and well known dates such as Poitiers and Crescy.

Also, regarding another marriage, how would that go without notice in a small community of elders who were trained to record their lineages? Even John Bigelow who was illiterate could draw his family coat of arms from childhood memory.

Fay - The Margaret CLAIR name was disproved I thought? Which brings a question - was Margaret 1st married to William Fowle

The children are accurate now on the John Warren of Boston profile - they match the will data.

Can we define which are the more likely parents of John Warren - Christopher Warren & Alice Webb OR John "the middle" Warren & Elizabeth "Mary" Scarlett?

I'll try & find that citation about Margaret the wife.

Pamela - I love your thoughts. This is exactly the kind of way to break new ground. Sign me on for Bulkley, I have a connection to DIS prove.

Here's the Margaret (Bayley) Fowle Warren citation, it should be added to her profile:

http://bigelowsociety.com/rod/warren1.htm#Note5:

"You have this: Margaret CLEAR, b. abt 1590, ,,England, d. 6 Nov 1662, Watertown, Middlesex, MA.{6} on your website.

"But I have PROOF that it is incorrect in the form of two will abstracts found in "English Wills of Colonial Families" by Noel Currer-Briggs. I do have copies of both and would be willing to send them to you if you would like to see them. The following is what I have on Margaret's family. ..."

....

I've added this note to the overview for

Alice Warren
Sarah Unknown

Found connected to [Unknown Profile John Warren, of Boston] with no supporting evidence. Disconnected March 2014.

OK we're down to 1 wife Margaret Warren with the right children & 1 too many husbands ... :)

Awaiting further input on the parent representation.

Erica:
I just found the second Bigelow line (Bagley) immigrant and have posted ties with Bulkeleys and others you can check out on Hugh and Anne Baguleys profiles. This is the Baguley's/Bagley's that ended up in North Carolina.
Re: Checking on Bigelows and Warrens just prior to leaving England. A lot has been made of their "port of emigration." I'm being careful, as ports of emigration and where the family came from originally, or may have been driven to just prior to the English Civil War, are definitely two different things. I have found burials, church windows with coats of arms all matching and quartered which will help sort out the relationships back in the old country. Since these families are all intermarried in England I should be able to close in on more of the "right before the jump" over to America Baguleys/Warrens/Bulkeleys/Leghs.Grosvenors, Davenports. I have contacted some of the churches for burial confirmations, and since most are in the chapels as founding families of the churches, hopefully getting a reply won't be a big deal, but you never know. The English Civil War really destroyed a lot but these families still had documentation because of who they were.
A lot of the new sources have really obvious errors in them, for instance saying Hugh Baguley was born in Martin, England. Hugh Baguley was most probably baptized at St. Martin's Parish Church in Siddington. Siddington, Dunham Massey, Stockport, Cheadle are all the little burgs where our ancestors came from outside Manchester. At least they left clues with the mistakes.

Hi Erica:
Regarding the LDS records: as of 1997 show the information of John Warren Group 10, #240) born May 1, 1585 of Nayland and married to Margaret Bayly born 1587 and died Nov. 6, 1662 at Watertown.
The only thing that worries me is the Victorians were notorious for "tweaking" their pedigrees. John of Boston makes more sense in terms of all the other history and people around them. John of Watertown, son of John the Middle, in some ways does not. Why would a "cardmaker's son" be aboard the Arabella with the Earl of Lincoln's daughter, son in law and Gov. Winthrop? But, he does have " a mansion house and stables".so he is affluent, which fits. Family lineage, as the family were related (Earl of Lincoln and Warren)? Maybe.
Is there a Post Mortem or will for Christopher Warren, John of Boston's father?

All names and dates the same.

I meant to cite John Warren of Nayland's father will regarding his mansion house and stables:
http://bigelowsociety.com/rod/warren2.htm
The Bigelow Society website uses LDS and Gilman Bigelow Howe's research. Can you please post the documents that DISPROVES the LDS records of 1997 stating Margaret Bayly was for 1587 of Nayland, Suffolk, England and died Nov. 6, 1662 in Watertown, Middlesex, MA.
This would be a major historical discovery.....do you think it will be easier to email them for viewing or can they easily be posted under sources?

I just went to the updated LDS site; this will definitely take some sorting out.
There are multiple John Warrens linked to Margaret Bayly and emigrated to Watertown. Much of it is probably multiple mistakes from people's trees. There is also a John Warren whose father is Christopher Warren. I think the original documents need to be reviewed, that's the only way.

This is from LDS "Family Search"
Profile # 1 John Warren of Watertown, MA
Immigrant
John Warren
1585-1667
Nayland, Suffolk, England
Profile # •KZQJ-7PM
Name
John Warren
Gender
Male
Birth
1 August 1585
Nayland, Suffolk, England
Christening

1 Aug 1585
,Nayland,Suffolk,England

Death

13 December 1667
Watertown, Middlesex, Massachusetts, United States

Burial

Dec 1667
Watertown,Middlesex,MA

Spouse:

Margaret Fowle Bayly
1587-1662
Profile #•LHZY-2JC

Married
1592
Is there a parish record for this marriage?
Where is Margaret buried? Will?

A custom note here says:
immigration (but no citation)
12 Jun 1630
Salem,, Massachusetts
So, did Margaret immigrate and die in MA?
___________________________________________________________

So, obviously, Margaret couldn't have been married 1592, because she was only 5 years old, and not being a queen or some other important personage, that's just impossible.

Another note additional adds:
Margaret died 6 November 1662
Watertown, Middlesex, Massachusetts, United States

http://markcarson.com/Family/d0000/g0000678.html
[39] BIO: THE FAMILY IN AMERICA I. RICHARD WARREN, son of Christopher and
Alice (Webb) Warren, was born in England, probably about 1585. He was
one of the passengers who came to America in the "MAYFLOWER" in 1620.
He came from London and was called a "merchant" of that city. The
register at the end of Governor Bradford's folio manuscript give him
the honorable prefix of "MR." He was mentioned by a contemporary as
"grave Richard Warren, a man of integrity, justice, and uprightnes of
piety and serious religion," and also "as a useful instrument during
the short time he lived, bearing a deep share in the difficulties and
troubles of the plantation." With the exception of Bradford and
Brewster, the principal leaders of the Pilgrim Colony were of London
origin and association. Winslow, Warren, Allerton and Hopkins and
probably Standish, were among the great civil leaders of the Colony
and they were men who, as distinguished from the church element, gave
stability to its financial management. (English ancestry and Home of
the Pilgrim Fathers-Banks). He received land grants in common with his
associates, and one of these grants was at Warren's Cove. He was one
of the influential members of the company, and as such was selected
with nine others to cruise along the coast from Cape Cod Harbor in a
shallop for the purpose of deciding a place of settlement. His wife,
Elizabeth, whom he married in England, followed him to America in the
ship "Ann" in 1623, bringing with her their five daughters. Eight
wives and 12 children came on these ships "Ann" and "Little James".
Richard died at Plymouth in 1628. Elizabeth occupied an improtant
position in the colony, and is usually mentioned in the records as
Mistress Elizabeth Warren, a designation by no means common. Here is
one of the rare instances in an early colony of continued widowhood.
Upon the marriage of her daughters, she conveyed to their husbands
certain lands, variously located at Eel River and Wellingly. She died
at Plymouth, Oct. 2, 1673 about 90 years of age. A SUMMARY of the
WARREN ANCESTORS, as given by the President of the Associations of
"Descendants of Richard Warren" in 1915. A Danish Knight had six
children. Herpastus (Herfastus) (2) the second child married Walter De
St. Marin and had William De Warren, the third earl of Warren on
Normandy. He married daughter of Ralph De Tonta and had William (4) De
Warren, the first earl of Warren and Surrey in England. William (4) De
Warren, married Gungreda, daughter of William (6) King of England, and
he says, "I have the line from William (4) De Warren down to Richard
(22) Warren, the Pilgrim, or Richard (1) Warren of Plymouth. From
Gundreda the line is traced back for many hundreds of years through
the crowned heads of Europe." 1. Walter de St. Martin and his wife had
2. (I) William de Warren, Earl of Warren in Normandy. He married a
daughter of Rolph de Torta. 2. William de Warren and wife had 3.
(I)William de Warren, the first Earl of Warren and Surrey. He married
Gundreda, daughter of William, King of England, surnamed the
"Conqueror." 3. William, first Earl of Warren and Gundreda had 4.
(I)William de Warren, second Earl of Warren, married Isabel. She died
Feb. 13, 1131. He died May 2, 1138. 5. (II) Ralph de Warren 6. (III)
Gundreda 7. (IV) Edith 8. (V) Daughter, name not learned. 4. William,
second Earl of Warren, and Isabel had 9. (I) William de Warren the
third Earl ofWarren, married Adela, daughter of William Falvace, Earl
of Ponthern and Sars 10. (2)(II) Reginald de Warren married Adela,
daughter of Roger de Mowbray 11. (III) Ralph de Warren 12. (IV)
Gundreda 13. (V) Ada, she married in 1139, Henry, Earl of Huntington,
eldest son of David, King of Scots, and they were the parents of
Malcome and William, Kings of Scotland, and David, Earl of Huntington.
9. William de Warren, Third Earl of Warren and Surrey, and Adela, had
14. (I) Isabel, Countess of Warren and Surrey. She married Hameline
Plantagenet. She died July 1199. He died May 1202. 10. Reginald de
Warren and Adela had 15. (I) William, he married Isabel, daughter of
Sir William de Hayden, Knight. 15. William and Isabel had 16. (I) Sir
John Warren, he married Alice, daughter of Roger de Townsend, Esq. 17.
(I) John. He married Joan, daughter of Sir Hugh de Port, Knight 17.
John and Joan had 18. (I) Sir Edward Warren. He married Maud, daughter
of Richard de Skeyton. 18. Sir Edward and Maud had 19. (I) Ralph, died
without children. 20. (II) Sir William Warren, died without children.
21. (III) Sir Edward Warren, married Cicely, daughter of Nicholas de
Eaton, Knight 22. (IV) John, died without children. 21. Sir Edward and
Cicely had 23. (I) Sir John Warren. He married Agnes, daughter of Sir
Richard de Wynnington, Knight. 24. (II) Margeret 23. Sir John and
Agnes had 25. (I) Sir Lawrence Warren, Knight, married Margery,
daughter of Hugh Bukley, Esq of Ware, in Shropshire. 26. (II) Emma 25.
Sir Lawrence Warren, Knight, and Margery had 27. (I) John, married
Isabel, daughter of Sir John Stanley, Knight. 28. (II) Ralph 29. (III)
Margery 30. (IV) Joan 31. (V) Cicely 32. (VI) Margaret 33. (VII)
Elizabeth 27. John Warren and Isabel had 34. (I) Sir Lawrence Warren,
married Isabel, daughter of Sir Robert Leigh, Knight. 35. (II)
Elizabeth 36. (III) Jane 37. (IV) John, married Anne, daughter of Lord
Stafford 38. (V) Richard 39. (VI) Henry 40. (VII) Joan 34. Sir
Lawrence and Isabel had 41. (I) Sir John Warren 42. (II) William
Warren, seated at Counton, in Nottinghamshire. He married Anne, who
died May 1, 1496 42. William and Anne had 43. (I) John. He married
Elizabeth. He died 1525. 44. (II) William, died 1542. 45. (III) Jane
43. John and Elizabeth had 46. (I) Gregory 47. (II) John of Headbury,
in the Parish of Ashburton, in Devonshire, Eng. 47. John Warren had
48. (I) Christopher 48. Christopher had 49. (I) William. He married
Anne, daughter of Thomas Mable of Calstocks in Cornwall. 49. William
and Anne had 50. (I) Christopher. He married Alice, daughter of Thomas
Webb, of Sidnam, in Devonshire, England. 50. Christopher and Alice had
51. (I) Rev. Robert. He married Margaret Burges. 52. (II) John. Came
to America. 53. (III) Thomas 54. (IV) Richard of Greenwich, in Kent
County, England, Merchant. He married Elizabeth Juatt (perhaps the
same name now called Jewett) widow of March. Richard came to America
in the Mayflower, 1620. Died in Plymouth, Mass. 1628. She died 1673,
age 90 years. 55. (V) Christopher who married Sarah, daughter of
Nicholas Opie, Esq. of Plymouth, England. 56. (VI) William, a London
merchant. Married Mary, daughter of William Cuttney. 57. (VII) Anne,
who married John Richards. --O-- THE WARREN LINE ARMS - CHEQUY
or/and AZURE (BURKE: "General Armory".) In interest and intiquity
the history of the Warren family is exceeded by that of no other in
England. The surname Warren is of Norman-French origin, and is
derived from Gerenne, or Gareme, a small river in the old county of
Calilas, or Caux, in Normandy, which gave its name to the neighboring
commune. There is at present, a village called Garenne in the same
district, and it is here that the origin of the family has stood on
the west side of the river Garenne, and as late as the year 1832 some
of ruins were standing. The surname has assumed different forms from
time to time Gereyn, Warreyn, Waryn, Warin, Waring, Warynge, and
Warren. It first appears in England with William de Warrene, a Norman
nobleman, who came to England with William the Conqureor, and was
related to him both by marriage and common ancestry. An ancient
genealogy of the family traces the lineage of this William de Warenne
back to the yeare 900 A.D., when his Scandinavian origin of the Norman
family is conceded by eminent genealogists, and the following pedigree
with slight variations, is accepted by authorities on the Warren
history. I.THE PROGENITOR, a Danish knight, was among those who
succeded in obtaining a footing in Normandy, and became allied through
marriage with one of the foremost families of noble lineage of Europe.
II. HERFASTUS, son of the progenitor. III. A daughter, married Walter
de Saint Martin. IV. William de Warren, Earl of Warren in Normandy,
married a daughter of Ralph de Torta. V. William de Warren, son of
William de Warren, married Gundred, daughter of William the Conqureor,
and became the first Earl of Warren and Surrey of England. VI. William
de Warren, second Earl of Warren and Surrey, married Isabel, daughter
of the fifthe Earl of Vermandois, in France. VII. REGINALD WARREN, son
of William de Warren, married Adelia de Mowbray, daughter of Roger de
Mowbray. VIII. WILLIAM WARREN, only son of Reginald Warren, married
Isabel de Hayden, daughter of Wir William de Hayden, Knight. IX. SIR
JOHN WARREN, only son and heir, married Alice de Townsend, daughter of
Roger de Townsend, Esquire. X. JOHN WARREN, son and heir, married Joan
de Port, daughter of Sir Hugh de Port, Knight. XI. SIR EDWARD WARREN
married Maud de Skeyron, daughter of Richard de Skeyron (Skegeton).
XII. SIR EDWARD WARREN married Cicely de Eaton, daughter of Nicholas
de Eaton, Knight. XIII. SIR JOHN WARREN, only son, married Agenes de
Wynnington, daughter of Richard de Wynnington, Knight. XIV. SIR
LAWRENCE WARREN, only son and heir, married Margery Bulkely, daughter
of Hugh Bulkely, Esquire, of Ware, in Shropshire, ancestor of the
Bulkelys of England. XV. JOHN WARREN, eldest son, married Isabel
Stanley, daughter of Sir John Stanley, Knight. XVI. SIR LAWRENCE
WARREN married Isabel Legh, daughter of SIR ROBERT LEGH, Knight. XVII.
WILLIAM WARREN, seated in Caunton, in Nottinghamshire, married Anne.
Died in May 1496. XVIII. JOHN WARREN married Elizabeth, died in 1525.
XIX. JOHN WARREN, of Hedbury, in the parish of Ashburton, Devonshire.
XX. CHRISTOPHER WARREN, of Hedbury. XXI. WILLIAM WARREN, of Hedbury,
married Anne Mable, daughter of Thomas Mable, of Calstocke, in
Cornwall. She married (second) William Culling, of Woodland, in
Devonshire. XXII. CHRISTOPHER WARREN, of Hedbury, only son and heir,
married Alice Webb, daughter of Thomas Webb, of Sidenham, in
Devonshire. (Rev. Thomas Warren: "History and Genealogy of the
Warren Family." John Collins: "The Warren Genealogy," from research
done in England. Samual Putnam Avery: The Warren, Little, Lothrop,
etc., Pedigrees.") (Roebling: Richard Warren of the "Mayflower".
New England Historical and Genealogical Register.)

Here is John Warren #1's grave:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=34924869

Note: His Find a Grave says he was born in Harwich England. So I will confirm this when I go to MA this summer. I have put that on my list.

Here is Margaret's grave:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=34924878

I will photograph that as well.

Cross referencing this discussion

http://www.geni.com/discussions/134406
Richard Warren (alias Waller), of Bassingbourne

Which descends to this profile

John Warren, VII

I would presume dates may have been garbled, but wanted to make sure this is referencing an entirely different Warren line.

All John of Watertown's children are accounted for on Find a Grave,
just click on their parents graves and they are there. You can also see where they were born.
" In the year 1630, John, Margaret and four of their children, including Mary who was only six years old, joined the Winthrop Fleet and sailed for America on the ship "Arabella", arriving at Salem on June 12. After stopping in Salem and Charlestown, they settled in Watertown. Among the early records of Watertown, Massachusetts, is the record of Mary's marriage to John Bigelow, reading as follows: "1642-30-8, John Biguloh and Mary Warin joyned in mariag before Mr. Nowell." This is the earliest marriage found in the Watertown records. John and Mary had twelve children, all born in Watertown. Mary died in 1691, so John, as was the custom in those days, took a second wife, Sarah, the daughter of Joseph Bemis. Mary was buried in the Grove Hill Cemetery in Waltham."

Because they settled in Watertown, I call him John Warren of Watertown.

Ok, so if you look on a map, Harwich is the Port of Emigration. It is literally right on the sea. If you look around this area you will see the name places for all the other towns around the Boston area - all originating from the part of England (Dedham, Colchester, Braintree, Sudbury, etc.). Just an aside, John Bigelow, his son in law, was a surveyor, so I'm sure they put their heads together about naming towns:) Now look a little farther west from Nayland and you will see Bury St. Edmund's. I have been researching this area as I found Warrens living here and buried there. A very short distance from Nayland. So that's John Warren of Watertown immediate identity.
Older LDS records confirm his wife and father as John the Middle Warren.

Ok, so Profile #2 John Warren of Boston

I separate Watertown from Boston FYI because in that time, they were not one and the same.

John Warren of Boston Profile #2

No known date of birth from the document you posted
Parents: Alice Webb and Christopher Warren
as you state from Cutler

Christopher Warren
Born: of, Ilsington, Devonshire, England
UID: ◦DGS: 4110769_00392
No birth date available
No death date available
LDS person ID I151402
Wife:
Alice (Webb) Warren, was born in England, probably about 1585.
She has a UID from LDS as:5E29F86F47D1479EA6235D4D7A069F04812D
From: of, Sydenham-Damerel, Devonshire, England
Her birthdate is listed as: UNK
Sources:1.[S84] Pedigrees with Index of London Citizens, abt. 1600-1800 (filmed 1954), Boyd, Percival, compiler, (Microfilm copy of manuscripts at Somerset House, London. Salt Lake City, Utah: Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), FHL microfilms 94,515-94,593., vol. 264 no. 26877, FHL microfilm 94584.
Her father is listed as Robert Webb. No birth date.
Their son is listed as WILLIAM WARREN.
LDS Record number 26877.
UID # C80920D5A712497E9788F8421FA6973B36DB
Notes on Chart:
◦DGS: 4110769_00392

OCCUPATION: Merchant.

OCCUPATION: Stationer.
DISTINCTION: Citizen of London.

NOTE: See Boyd's 'Citizens of London' record no. 26877 for additional information.
Wife: Mary Culling, of, Woodland, Devonshire, England
Children:
1. William Warren, b. 1664, d. Yes, date unknown
2. Mary Warren, d. Yes, date unknown
3. Elizabeth Warren, d. Yes, date unknown
Source: 1.[S84] Pedigrees with Index of London Citizens, abt. 1600-1800 (filmed 1954), Boyd, Percival, compiler, (Microfilm copy of manuscripts at Somerset House, London. Salt Lake City, Utah: Filmed by the Genealogical Society of Utah, 1954), FHL microfilms 94,515-94,593., vol. 264 no. 26877, FHL microfilm 94584.

So it appears that someone just grafted John Warren's bio onto this William.

He came from London and was called a "merchant" of that city. The
register at the end of Governor Bradford's folio manuscript give him
the honorable prefix of "MR."

So I was wondering, could I have my 9th great grandfather, John Warren of Watertown, reappear as I can't even bring him up on a search on Geni.

And one last note:
"However, although there is no doubt Christopher Warren had a son, Richard; the General Society of Mayflower Descendants has been unable in this century to find proof that Richard Warren, son of Christopher, and Richard Warren of the Mayflower are indeed one and the same person."

So if anyone finds proof I would like to know about that.......

Thanks Erica, this was a great example of lots of conflicting data; genealogy "tweaking" and other mistakes like cutting and pasting on the internet without going to reliable resources. I have not contact the Mayflower Society and if someone else wants to do that I would love to hear any current news.

One final bit from the New England Historical and Genealogical Register,: Volume 55 1901 that Somersby definitely says Christopher Warren's son John (which is where all this confusion starts) is not John of Watertown strictly proving with dates:
http://books.google.com/books?id=hcAg0OBzr1oC&pg=PA71&img=1...

I will post it as a source document on both profiles.