Jan Coenraadsz Visser, SV/PROG - Jan Coenraadsz Visser, SV/PROG - confusion on the tree

http://visser-families.synthasite.com/ is another source used

I received notice of your post on Jan Coenraadsz Visser.
Unfortunately i know nothing about this South African connections or Jan Coenraadsz himself.
I do follow this profile, but only because my grandfather was W.A.J. Visser and going back in his tree I arrived at his earliest ancestor Coenraet Visser.
Coenraet Visser

I am also on myheritage
http://www.myheritage.nl/site-family-tree-215247341/polderman-visser

Maybe there is no connection between the two but I would like to be sure.

Finding Jan Coenraadsz on geni, I was curious about the dutch connection i-e. : are there any known parents and grandparents ,and or brothers of this Jan Coenraadsz. from Ommen and is there any known connection with the province Zeeland or with Belgium or even Indonesia ?

If so I would be grateful if someone could let me know anything at all in this respect. Thank you !

Cornélie Maria Micheline Polderman - look at earlier discussions on this profile - I think there is something there about his dutch connection

Delia Robertson do you have any input here please?

Private User

Sorry to say, I am a fence-sitter on this one.

Have you seen this: http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/ui71.htm

In it, Mansell Upham argues that Jan Coenraad Visser had two wives, i.e. Geertje/Alida Gerrits and Grietje Gerrits.

He argues this based on these points:
1. In the court records pertaining to the murder of JCV's wife in 1692, she is twice described as 82 years old, viz. born ca 1610- - which would make her too old to be the mother of children born in 1667 (57 yrs old), 1665 (55 yrs old) and 1663 (53 yrs old).
2. That up until 1665 JCV's wife is always named a version of Geertje and that thereafter she only appears as Grietje.
3. That all the children until the last, Johannes, born in 1667 name a daughter Aeltjie or Aeltie or Alida.

I am a fence-sitter, thus far leaning to there being just one wife whose name for some reason was recorded incorrectly or became generally corrupted after 1665, and errors as to her age made in the court record.

My reasons are:
1. That even the oldest child in the family, Maria Jansz, would likely have been a late arrival for her mother if you estimate her birth based on her marriage and the birth of her own first child. This would mean her mother (Geertje/Alida/Grietje) was in her late thirties when her first child was born - this is unusual for the period.
2. Three children were born boom, boom, boom after his wife joined JCV at the Cape in 1662 - more or less 2 years apart as was common at the Cape during that period. The couple had been separated since Dec 1657 when he sailed for the Cape.

Whatever you decide to do - think you would have to outline the evidence for both scenarios.

Sorry not to be more helpful.

Delia Robertson - thank you very much - it is as I feared - we will need to ponder and read more - get some input from other interested parties.

Private User One final thing - Mansell also offers possibility that wife and children were accompanied by her mother in 1662 and that wife died after arrival and birth of last child. And that it was mum-in-law who was murdered in 1692.

Not sure this will ever be satisfactorily resolved ... the available records have been scoured without success.

June, Due to lack of sources I fear I cant be of any help. As I know you, you will come up with the right decision.

I only find out now that he is my 7th Great Grandfather through both my Fathers and Mothers family lines.

Please don't let him disappear then I will be no more.

Chuckle Dries - I think we need to really put our think caps on here - add any sources we have to the profile and make a considered decision as to what to do - so I do ask everyone to add what they can please! Thanks Delia for your input - we need to look at everything we can

Can someone please help me. I recently discovered that my great grandfather was called Georg Frederik Visser. My g grandmother was Anna Maria Visser born Rossouw, but he appears to have been married twice. His other wife was Petronella Sophia Spostanden(?). Does anyone know anything about Georg or Petronella?

A few years ago when I started buiding my family tree, I added Alida Gerrits (Greetjen) as my 7th Great Grandmother. However after a year or more of being absent from a lot of the activities on Geni I had to discover that Alida Gerrits had in the meantime disapeared from my tree and was replaced somehow (Gedcom or wrong merge?) with her sister Margaretha (Geertjen) Gerrits as my 7th Great Grandmother. And to add insult to injury my name still appeared on Geni as a manager of this wrong information.
My reasons and source for insisting that Jan Coenraad Visser was twice married appear in SAG 15 on pages 12-13. SAG gives credit for the following information to "Die Taalgenoot" March 1973 edition p.10:

Jan Coenraad Visser * Ommen, Nederland c. 1633 a.28.4.1658 aan boord "Dordrecht" vanaf Delft, Nederland, soldaat, vryburger in 1659, graan- en veeboer x Nederland c.1648 Greetjen (Alida) GERRITS v, Hardenberg, Nederland a.1662 xx c.1662 Margaretha (Geertjen) GERRITS (sy skoonsuster/sic. sister-in-law) v. Hardenberg, Nederland + Maart 1692, vermoor deur slaaf; na die dood van sy vrou het hy nog drie kinders by Maria v. Negapatham, India
Erkenning: "Die Taalgenoot" Maart 1973,p10

According to the information above only four children came from the Netherlands with his first wife Alida. Amongst these 4 children was b2 Gerrit Jansz Visser from whom most of South Africa's Vissers' descend. The rest of the other children was the children he had with his second wife Margaretha Gerrits and Maria of Negapatham, India. and they were born after 1662. Alida must have died in 1662 but I could not find her death certificate and neither could a lot of other researchers.

Esther STIEGER (VISSER)
If you check the Revisions on Margaretha Geertjen Gerrits, SM/PROG you will see this
"Alida Gerrits SM/PROG was merged into Margaretha Geertjen Gerrits, SM/PROG by Jan Marthinus Blomerus, b2....h1.
Jul 16 at 5:25 AM · undo"

Thank you Angus,
I will see what can be done. I am not a Pro and it may be that someone will have to help me put back my 7th Great Grandmother Alida Gerrits where she belong. The sources I mentioned previously (SAG ed.15 pp12-13 and 'Die Taalgenoot' of March 1973 p 10 are very reliable and should be enough proof that Jan Coentaadsz Visser married twice - once in the Netherlands to Alida Gerrits in 1648 and the 2nd marriage to his sister-in-law, Margaretha Gerrits at the Cape, South Africa in 1662. Until contrary proof can be found to this information, speculations should not be accepted as proof.

Esther VISSER is Alida Greetjen Gerrits' 7th great granddaughter!

I sent you a priivate message showing the connection

@Esther-VISSER A gentle word of caution on both SAG and Taaloord. Unless they cite their sources, there is no way of knowing how reliable the data is. I was really curious about the Taalgenoot mention, and so I got a copy of the article in which the author provides no sources for the data in the article and this is what she says about the purported 2nd marriage: "Alida moes kort daarna oorlede wees, want in 1662 is Jan Coenraad hertroud me Margaretha Gerrits dogter, ook van Hardenberg, waarskynlik ‘n suster van sy eerste vrou." The record of the purported second marriage has defied discovery by some of the best researchers. There are also some errors in the article. I suggest you read Mansell Upham's excellent article on the family at this link: http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/remarkablewriting/UL04DeHoopOpConstan...

You can also view the family on FFY - Jan Coenraad is at this link: http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g5/p5295.htm

Esther STIEGER (VISSER) I have added the Taalgenoot article to the documents section of JCV's profile.

Thanks Delia,

Mansell Upham is a good writer and this is a very interesting article.

Of cause one always have to be cautious when trying to interpret history. The art of good history writing is to neither add or subtract from important clues just purely for the sake of a sensational story. There is always the danger of subjectivity, in trying to bring home one's own viewpoint. It is very easy to fall into the trap of being selective in what you choose to believe or convey.

Esther STIEGER (VISSER)True, which is why I checked the Taalgenoot article, which does not substantiate the information with sources.

Delia Robertson
It is true that Taalgenoot does not mention sources. This of course does not mean that there was none to start with. Is anybody's guess as relevant as the next person's in this particular case? However the name 'Alida Gerrits' was not guessed but mentioned in old documents. This Upham confirms in his article. I am inclined to go with what normally would be concidered reliable sources like SAG & Upham and the reasonable deduction that Alida Gerrits was Coenraad Vissers 1st wife whom he married in the Netherlands . Until the persons who removed or merged her profile with Margaretha can prove otherwise, I prefer to go with this scenario which is more likely than attributing all those children to the elderly Margaretha Gerrits. As long as Margaretha is mentioned as the 2nd wife or 'huisvrouw' or whatever, I have no problem. But I refuse to jump along with assumptions without substantial sources that Alida and Margaretha were the same person . It is like wishing a problem (Alida) would go away. The fact that we do not know anything about her death, does not mean she did not exist. Lots of details and facts got lost over many years and this we have to accept or try to unearth.

Esther STIEGER (VISSER)
My intention was to alert you, that is all.

Delia that is fine with me, Although, like you, I dont believe everything I am being told , I do care deeply about setting everything right for everyone. It is always safer to be prudent by exercising discretion and checking the facts as well as the absence thereof.

cf https://www.geni.com/discussions/182590

Hi. I have been following this line as at first it showed that I was related to William King of England thru this link... I have been following the line through with both Geni and ancestry to find documents for proof... it seems now the line ends here... has someone made a correction in the last few days ? As there was a link to a Conrad de Vischer and Coy and that went thru to king William the conqueror!!....

Our Visser SV/PROG now sommer has 4 Gerrits wives. :) Incomplete merge (?), but I'd rather leave it to the curators June and Judi to resolve.
BTW. At the moment I'm related only through his partner Maria van Negapatnam, but I know from previous visits that I'm supposed to be connected via both of the Gerrits wives too.

I have completed some merges in the area - but babies due to wake any minute now so can't go into it too thoroughly right now! Can interested parties please check that all is well? Leoné Gardner?

Private User I have recently done a fair bit of digging and collating of primary source material to try and get a better grip on the possibility of there having been a second wife. My findings (particularly the two tables I include the 'Grandchildren' section at the following link), has led me to believe there was probably only one wife Geertje (possible Geertje Alida/Aeltje) whose name was either incorrectly recorded or assumed to be Grietje by others.

The main reason for me thinking this is that the second wife narrative relies heavily on the fact that Visser's wife's name is initially recorded as Geertje for five years, then Grietje for the next 30 years in muster rolls and church records. However, what I believe has gone unnoticed so far, is that within months of the famous murder, almost all Visser's children started baptising daughters with the name Geertje. The pattern is (for me, at least) too strong to be coincidence, and if Geertje had died 30 years before, why would the children start naming grandchildren after her when a completely different woman Grietje had just been murdered? My interpretation is that there was only ever Geertje who was known as such by her family, but known (popularly) as Grietje (Griet Grof has good alliteration) in the community.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14ss-J8EMNvPkVcBUDjmRovwGSbpyRUp...