Edward Southworth - Lineage Questions

More questions:
http://cybergata.com/roots/308.htm

From Deborah Southworth Sweet:
I am always amazed at how "possible" or "probably" or "believed to be" somehow turn into "IS," in genealogy, which supposedly prides itself on documentation and proof.
Although I have posted on this before, I guess the smell of royalty is just too much for some people, and they refuse to let go of a connection which is tenuous at best.
So - I am again posting all of the latest research about this supposed Royal connection in the hopes that at least *some* of you will take notice and make the necessary changes and notations to indicate that this is not a proven line. Carry the line IF YOU MUST, but at least note that it is NOT PROVEN, so as not to confuse and mislead others!

The following is from my own personal research notes. If you quote, please give credit, both to myself and to the others whom I quote. I have been researching the Southworth line for forty years.:

ORIGINS Of Edward Southworth: The link between Thomas & Rosamond (Lister) Southworth with their *possible* son, Edward Southworth, is inadequately supported though it has been called "Probable" for many years. In those many years, no one has found any proof, nor even a good preponderence of evidence that, our Edward was the son of Thomas & Rosamond. I cannot stress enough the word - probable - as there is a break in the line here for which NO DOCUMENTATION has been found which would PROVE the lineage back in time. Although it is carried in RD600, there are those who feel that Gary Boyd Roberts should have dropped the line from this latest book due to the lack of documentation.

--"Burke's American Families with British Ancestry" - Repr., Genealogical Pub. Co., Inc. Baltimore; orig. pub. 1939; 1996; ISBN #0-8063-0662-9. 'This work is an offprint of pages 2529-3022 of the 16th edition of Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed
Gentry, London, 1939, constituting, in entirety, the innovative American section.' pp.2919, 2920:
"Lineage - Edward Southworth, BELIEVED to be descended from the Southworths of Samlesbury Hall, Lancs, joined the Pilgrim Colony in Leyden[sic], Holland, but, through ill-health, was unable to accompany his friends on the Mayflower to Plymouth, Massachusetts; b.ca. 1590; m. at Leyden[sic], Holland, 28 May 1613, Alice Carpenter..."

--"Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700" - 7th ed. by Frederick Lewis Weis; Genealogical Pub. Co., Inc., Baltimore; 1950-1999; ISBN #0-8063-1367-6; This work contains the complete 'Royal Descent' of the Southworth Line, with a caveat re: the parentage of Edward Southworth, as follows: p.13; Line 9, entry 40 & 41:
40. THOMAS SOUTHWORTH, eldest son and heir...m. ROSAMOND LISTER...The will of Sir William Lister...mentions the testator's son-in-law, Thomas Southworth, as the son of Sir John Southworth...Thomas Southworth had become a Protestant by 1584, for which reason his father, Sir John, a moderate Catholic, threatened to disinherit him...The son was living in London in 1584; both father and son had returned to Samlesbury in 1594. [interesting to note that he uses Samuel Webber's Southworth Genealogy as one of his references.]
41. EDWARD SOUTHWORTH, youngest son of Thomas and Rosamond (Lister] Southworth, b. London, 1590, living 1602, but d. bef. 1622.(THE ONLY SUPPORT FOR THE CONNECTION BETWEEN GENERATION 41 and 42 IS IN THE COINCIDENCE OF DATES AND NAMES. EDWARD OF LEYDEN MAY OR MAY NOT BE THE SAME MAN AS EDWARD OF LONDON. THE LINE IS INADEQUATELY SUPPORTED AT THIS POINT). [The parens. are as they appear in the book, but I have capitalized for emphasis]

--Gary Boyd Roberts, in his "The Royal Descent of 500 Immigrants" notes on p. 245 (Lesser Additions & Corrections), and on p. 663 that "An alternative Nottinghamshire origin for Edward Southworth of Leyden is suggested in "The Mayflower Quarterly" 58(1992): 10-15."
To be noted, however, is that Gary Boyd Roberts continues to carry the line in his newest book, RD600, with the notation that "Clinching proof (or disproof) that Edward Southworth, son of Thomas Southworth and Rosamond Lister, was the Leyden Pilgrim of that name would be welcome. An alternative Nottinghamshire origin for Edward Southworth is suggested in "The Mayflower Quarterly" 58 (1992): 10-15.

--Some info on the Nottingham question, which seems to NOT have played out:
"English Origins of New England Families From The New England Historical and Genealogical Record" 2nd Series, Vol. III; Selected & Introduced by Gary Boyd Roberts; Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Baltimore (1985); LCCCN 84-81872; ISBN 0-8063-1094-4; p. 281
"Southworth Pedigree: Discussion of the line of the New England Southworths (Constant and Edward), and how it is NOT related to the royal Southworth line, as erroneously given in Winsor's "History of Duxbury."
Winsor's pedigree is, however "a correct copy of "Herald's Visitation" down to Henry and Thomas Southworth, who were living in 1623. This was furnished by me to a member of the family who, without authority, appended the name of Constant Southworth and others of New England. I HAVE SINCE TRACED THE AMERICAN BRANCH OF THE SOUTHWORTHS TO A REMOTE PERIOD IN ENGLAND. (my caps). No connection whatever is found with the family in the pedigree above mentioned."
The above was written by Mr. Horatio Gates Somerby, Esq. (keep reading)

"Southworth (ibid, vol. 51, p. 496) - In answer to Mary L.T. Alden, in October number - Edward Southworth, the pilgrim, was in Leyden in 1611 and 1613, and so could not have been the Edward in Nottinghamshire in 1614. There are some mistakes in the line as given in Winsor's history of Duxbury..."
___________________
[Some years before his death, Mr. Horatio Gates Somerby informed me[note, the "me" does not refer to myself, Deborah Sweet] that the pedigree of Southworth in Winsor's Duxbury was not printed as he furnished it to the family. He did furnish a pedigree, but some one altered it before printing. In the pedigree he furnished he did not connect the Plymouth settlers with it. I presume that Mr. Somerby's genealogical papers, which were left to the Massachusetts Historical Society, will show what he did furnish the Southworth family. He complained of other clients who, in printing matter furnished by him, had made him responsible for mistakes he never made. Mr. Somerby died at London, Nov. 14, 1872, in his 67th year. See sketch in the Register, vol. 28, pp. 340-342. - John Ward Dean.]"

To sum up:
Burke's Peerage - "Believed to be"
Weis - "Inadequately supported"
Roberts - "Clinching proof or disproof would be welcome"
Somersby - "NO CONNECTION" - Constant Southworth was added without authority

Hope this helps reduce the amount of false information circulating and re-circulating, though I don't have a lot of faith. I've been trying to get people to understand this for *years* without much success. It's like spitting into the wind. I've actually had people be quite nasty about it.

So Please - it is not my *fault* that your royal line is broken/unproven. I'd appreciate it if this posting doesn't prompt a flood of negativity. I am trying to *Help* you, after all.
Regards to All Southworths -
Deborah Southworth Sweet

An interesting comment from Somersby; I believe some of his published genealogies (with royal connections etcetera) have been proven fraudulent.

Tagging the "specific" profiles in question to this discussion would be useful.

In other words

Is it questioned that Edward (the immigrant) is the son of Thomas Southworth, of Samlesbury &
Lady Rosamond Southworth

Or is it their parents ?

Private User I think this also relates to a query that came up in email the other day.

Sandra Jane Larson I believe this was of interest to you also.

Yes, I had seen this before, so realize the situation, but was interested that Gary thought there was more circumstantial evidence-but it does look unproven although it would be nice to know more about some other line of Southworth's that Edward and hence Constant could claim.

Michael mcCann interested in this discussion but I don't know how to link him to it.. Can some one do that or should I just send him an e-mail to look under discussions?

found it thanks

Guys.. I got the photo from the person I will post it as a source.. It''s compiclated however.. due to the context the orginal is at the new york city public library and might be copyrighted i don't know..

Just upload it to a profile with as much attribution information as you have. If we can't see it we can't answer your question.

added..

Can you post a link to the uploaded document in this discussion?

Go to profile > documents and copy & paste the hyper link from the browser; that way anyone can view with one click.

My thanks.

Erica Howton the jpg is under media for edward southworh.. how do i make the transfer to here via url?

http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000029477991533

That's perfect, Michael, thank you.

Now - are there any notes about where the image came from that can be added to the "description" field?

Also - this profile is an important progenitor in colonial America. I would love to see a more "specific" image associated with the profile rather than the generic flag. Which is also not relevant to a Colonial very much.

it should show where it came from on the side.. I just need to zoom in and extract it...

Hi, I think it's time that William Newsome the American emigrant was separated from the Newsham's of Newsham Hall because of the proof I found that son William of parents William Newsham and wife Lucille Singleton was at Preston Guild in England 1642 and 1662 so can not be the one that emigrated to America in 1635. I had a GEDCOM of my tree from GENi and it took me nearly a week deleting more than 2400 profiles from it of American descendants related to the American William Newsome who are not my relatives. The GEDCOM at first had 5000 profiles.

Private User thank u for bringing this up but I usally stay away from contested lines here on geni even at the expense of being a bad genologist and contining to perptueate falsehoods such as sotherby because you just can't fix stupid and some people despite logic such as dna etc etc will continue to force change profiles to belive what they want to belive and nothing else and will shut out and tell off others who disagree with them and locking profiles to all but mods is not really a good situlation to try and fix it because it just creates heads aches for the mods (aka curators) Take the example between thomas jefferson and sally hemmings for example.. Some one wanted to rename the profile name to jefferson the (insert name of derogorty term towards woman here) and well you can imagine where that debate went... point is people will do what what ever they want...

i've had to ask Erica Howton to step in on my douglas line many a time despite the dna listing notice that she put up people defy logic and ignore it.

Erica Howton I think it's not just edward southworth's parents that might have to be redone oy vay what a migrane head ache it would be all the way down from edward to @ kt or sir john south is unproven according to what ever school of thought you choose to subscribe to on this matter

Geoff. Baines

Thank you very much for the notes in the profile of William Newsom, I of James City

You made the case crystal clear. It's unfortunate as Holtzclaw is a respected author & researcher - but this is why genealogy is a moving target. :)

The disconnect is done & I've made placeholder unknown parent profiles.

I've also made Master Profiles, which cannot be merged together, of

William Newsham, of Lancashire
Lucille Newsham
William Newsham, of Lancashire

Just be on the lookout for "extra" marriages, as we do not yet have relationship locking.

Sorry - missed tagging Geoff's 9th great uncle!

William Newsham, of Newsham Hall

And the man who is not him

unknown father of William Newsom, of James City

So...Deborah Southworth Sweet has no idea, and poses her own thoughts as the correct answer in her closing remarks. I will continue to have our teams research this line and connection, but the odds are in favor that there is a connection. Scientifically speeking, throw out the high number and low number and see where the rest of the data is hitting...Deborah Southworth Sweet just got thrown out.

Ms Howton - did you get your question answered from 11-11-14 related to which Edward was in question (Edward Southworth son of Thomas Southworth and Rosamond Lister) or questionable link to royalty?

Trying to target from this side. Thanks!

DT

No, I am not clear where the lineage "questions" are supposed to be, precisely.

I reviewed three generations on Geni:

Thomas Southworth, of Samlesbury father of

Edward Southworth, of Samlesbury & Leiden father of

Ens. Constant Southworth & Capt. Thomas Southworth, of the Plymouth Colony

Did a little tree clean up and added documentation.

As far as I can tell, these three generations, father > son > sons, are in order.

Does anyone see anything differently?

Does this help?

http://www.blackfamilygenealogy.org/sir-thomas-southworth-and-rosam...

Sir Thomas Southworth (Knight), son of Sir John de Southworth (Knight) and Mary Ashton, was born in 1548 in Samlesbury, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom, was christened in Samlesbury, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom, and died on 30 Nov 1616 in Grays Inn, London, Middlesex, England at age 68. Married to Rosamond Lister Abt. 1582 Rosamond Lister, wife of Sir Thomas Southworth, daughter of William Lister and Ann Mydhope, was born in 1567 in Thornton, Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom and died in 1592 in Samlesbury, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom at age 25.

8.  Edward Southworth was born in 1590 in London, England and died in 1622 in Leiden, Holland (South), Netherlands at age 32. a “Sayworker” who became heavily connected with the Pilgrim’s, though he personally did not come to the new world, his widow and their two children later joined the Plymouth colony and became rather important personages there, and Edward worked in the London office of the “Mayflower company.”

Bill - can you tell me if that site / info matches the Geni profile information?

Are there sources referenced? We are checking a pedigree so we need record facts such as Inquiry Post Mortem's, wills, property records, and modern historical studies that reference contemporary sources.