Groot charterboek der graaven van Holland, van Zeeland en heeren van Vriesland

I uploaded this chart, can someone verify that this could be the same
Graaf Gerolf II van Friesland as depicted in that chart from the same source as that Google book?

http://media.geni.com/p13/63/02/86/a9/5344483e2de63ecd/ger_original...

This is the present line in Geni
Gerolf van Friesland, graaf in Friesland
father of
Dirk I, graaf in Holland and 1: Waldger van Holland

1: Waldger van Holland father of
Radboud, graaf van Lek en IJssel
Hendrik van Teisterbant

The line in the chart

Pepen de Dikke Grosmeister van der ostfrankishe reich

Karel Martel

Bernard

Theodrade de Diederik, Hertig van het ostfrankische Vriesland

Gerolf, Graaf in vriesland brother of Imme, Hertig in Salzenland

Diederik Graaf in Vriesland

Gerolf II Graaf in Vriesland

1: Walger, Graaf van Teisterbant brother to Diederik Graaf in Holland and Hildegard

Diederik Graaf van Teisterbant

Hendrik van Teisterbant

There is in Geni already Bernard, count & Abbot of St. Quentin as son of Charles Martel and we also have Gerolf II from the line quoted by Ulf:Graaf Gerolf II van Friesland

but Bernard's daughter Theodrada has different links in Geni, but she DID have a daughter Imma aus Sachsen, Äbtissen von Soisson who became abbess at Soisson as mentioned in the chart uploaded by Ulf

Lodewijk de Overzeesche is Louis IV, king of West Francia
He had (according to the chart) a daughter Hildegard (not in Geni) who married Graaf Dirk II van Masaland, Kinhem en Texla and later another Dirk (son of Wigmund IV)
in Geni the wife of Dirk II is indeed a Hildegard but attributed to a different father

I suppose the book (and thus the chart) represents the mainstream opinion of Dutch historians at the time of writing (mid 18th century) but it is difficult to judge how reliable it really is.

Really, it is to small letters for me to read, I use glasses but can't almost read it, I have to guess...

Theodrade, married to Diederik, Hertog van het Oostfrankische Vriesland, bla bla, abedissa, Soisson, and, bla bla, 845.

Thietrades husband in Geni have 3 wife's, surely room for mistakes!

I think that she was married to Diederik and had those kids Gerolf and Imme, with him, it doesn't seems to be fake to me.

There are no sources for Thietrades daughter "Imma aus Sachsen" Äbtissen von Soisson in the profile in Geni, but in the book you provided, it is telling us that she was married to Egbert Hertog in Sachsen?

If I found the right profiles here on Geni, it would seem that the dates are some slightly off, and that they should have been born a little earlier, but these two would also been a pair according to that book.

Eckbert von Sachsen, prins

Imma aus Sachsen, Äbtissen von Soisson

It might be a good situation to start a Project on Geni.
The Project can be base on the book Arie has found with two documents, the text and Ulf's chart, attached. Then when ever you find a profile on Geni that is mentioned in the documents you can link that to the Project. Then use Project Discussions to look at how Geni differs from the two sources and either change Geni or present explanations in the Project Homepage for why Geni doesn't match that source.

Also i think it would be important to try and involve some of the Dutch users like George Homs, as Arie says this book is one C18 person's opinion of the facts so we have no idea how accurate it is.

Notice this project too, Alex Moes :

* http://www.geni.com/projects/Graven-van-Holland-Counts-of-Holland/5756

I had already a private discussion with George J. Homs about this book, before I started this public discussion.
The author of the book is presumably Frans van Mieris, de Jongere, a painter according to Wikipedia although less famous than his grandfather with the same name Frans van Mieris, de Oudere

Something strange has happened to Dirk I, graaf van Kinhem as he is now listed as a brother of Graaf Gerolf II van Friesland and not his son.
From the revision log I can't quite figure out how this happened, presumably one of the recent merges is to blame. I see nothing in the material mentioned earlier in this discussion which would suggest such a change

Ard van Bergen
I am sure this was done by someone's request but I can't find it

Dirk I, graaf in Holland was connected to N.N. N.N. as his son by Angus Wood-Salomon.
Jan 2 at 1:48 PM

I think the argument was how can someone b. c850 have a child b.c860

While there would you look at this part of tree
https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000015621109072

It shows Dirk ll b. c935 as son of Dirk l b. 860 just to be sure.

It is a possibility just saw this in a tree and got it from the person herself her father was 75 when she was born.

There is definitely a lot of uncertainty about Graaf Dirk II van Masaland, Kinhem en Texla
see e.g. also the curator note that George J. Homs put in for Dirk I, graaf van Kinhem and even among historians in the Netherlands there is no consensus on this issue

This is the present line in Geni
Gerolf van Friesland, graaf in Friesland
Graaf Gerolf II van Friesland

father of
Dirk I, graaf in Holland
Dirk I, graaf van Kinhem

and 1: Waldger van Holland
Earl Waldger van Fresland, of Tiesterbant

1: Waldger van Holland
Earl Waldger van Fresland, of Tiesterbant
father of
Radboud, graaf van Lek en IJssel
Count Radboud “Poppo” van Teisterbant, Of Lek and IJssel

Hendrik van Teisterbant
Hendrik van Teisterbant

>>>>http://media.geni.com/p13/63/02/86/a9/5344483e2de63ecd/ger_original...

The line in the chart

Pepen de Dikke Grosmeister van der ostfrankishe reich

Karel Martel

Bernard

Theodrade de Diederik, Hertig van het ostfrankische Vriesland

Gerolf, Graaf in vriesland brother of Imme, Hertig in Salzenland

Diederik Graaf in Vriesland

Gerolf II Graaf in Vriesland

1: Walger, Graaf van Teisterbant brother to Diederik Graaf in Holland and Hildegard

Diederik Graaf van Teisterbant

Hendrik van Teisterbant

I have studied the discussion here on Geni. The project discussion of the Kings of Frisia and the international documentation. And while George Holms does not agree with it I have connected the Frisian Counts with the early Counts of Holland.

I have to solve some dataconflicts and some years are not correct, but this what the international experts and the top of the dutch experts of this area make of it.

Very important to understand is that is called West-Friesland around 900 is the West Coast of the Netherlands. North Friesland is now Groningen en Friesland and East-Friesland is now Germany and Denmark.

That is why we speak of Early Frisia & Flemish history, because it's before the time Holland existed. It was just wetlands, lakes and coastland.

Pinging George J. Homs so he can react on this discussion.

Nordalah, Ruler in Middle Friesland is your 35th great grandfather.
You
→ Lynette Marie Evans
your mother → Patrick Evans
her father → Isabella Annie Lavinia Beckmann
his mother → Paul Heinrich Julius F von Boeckmann
her father → Ferdinand Otto von Boeckmann
his father → Pauline Christina Schack
his mother → Christian Julius Schack
her father → Engel Carl Ernst von Schack
his father → Christoph Ernst von Schack, til Wendorf m.m.
his father → Sophie Elisabeth von Steinberg
his mother → Friedrich II. Graf von Steinberg, til Bürgheim
her father → Elisabeth von Spiegel zu Peckelschein
his mother → Georg von Spiegel zu Peckelsheim
her father → Ursula von Fürstenberg
his mother → Anna von Westphalen
her mother → Rabe von Westfalen
her father → Heinrich IX von Westfalen auf Fürstenberg
his father → Wilhelm II von Westfalen
his father → Lubbert IX der Reiche D. von Westfalen
his father → Elseke von Horhusen
his mother → Elseke von Plettenberg
her mother → Oleke von Büren
her mother → Bertold IV von Büren
her father → Udelhild von Hengebach
his mother → Jutta von Jülich
her mother → Wilhelm I, count of Jülich
her father → Agnes van Loon
his mother → Arnold I, III. graaf van Loon (count de Looz)
her father → Irmengard Suanehilde van Holland
his mother → Dirk III, count of Westfriesland
her father → Arnulf van Holland, Graaf in Hollant en West Friesland
his father → Dirk II, count in Holland
his father → Dirk I, graaf in Holland
his father → Dirk Gerulf van Kennemerland
his father → Gerolf, count in Friesland
his father → Gerulf, Ruler in Middle Friesland
his father → Nordalah, Ruler in Middle Friesland
his father

The Gerulf who died 889 is generally regarded as the earliest proven ancestor of this family, although there are guesses about how he might have been related to earlier rulers.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/HOLLAND.htm#_Toc482446629

What are the sources you're using Private User?

I'm using the standard source as almost every one in Europe is using for this kind of lines. "Europäische Stammfafeln" and this case Band II Neue Folge tabel 2.
And from A W E Dek "Genealogie der Graven van Holland" The latest version.

Jeroen, those are good, standard sources but they are not infallible. Both of them are known to have problems. You should be using Charles Cawley's MedLands, which draws on those sources and updates them.

Justin Durand I will also study Charles Cawley's Medlands version, but it is good to know the old versions of the tree also. This part of the tree is about sources and you have to know the 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 to know how and why we using now 4.0 of the tree.

It is a really swamp of documentation in this area aspecially high in the top. I'm as far that the lastest uni research on this subject is from 2008. And you need to read a lot to discover a lot of it is just myths or that a lot of words is needed to prove a very weak link.

I think we all know what you mean but "...a lot of words is needed to prove a very weak link." would probably read better as "...a lot of words is needed to justify a very weak link."

If the words proved the link it would not be weak.

Actually "...a lot of words ARE needed to justify a very weak link." would be even better but my English is not perfect either ;)

I must I going to respect more and more http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands

My words are a reflection of that I really don't like a lot of words in a language that it not my native language on a subject that is about my own backyard but it is not in the language of of that backyard.

After some discussion we came to the conclusion that the first one that is a Graaf van Holland is Floris II. Before that is Holland a part of West-Frisia. County Holland is created by Foris II in 1101.

So the family name van Holland should only be use for Floris II and his children. But not for his forefathers. Those are Frisian Counts and children from the Counts of Frisia.

I can agree most with this list https://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_fan_greven_fan_Holl%C3%A2n_en_Se... I'm sorry, but it is frisian, but I believe that professor google also speaks frisian.

The short answer is that before Floris II they were the graaf or count of Kinhem and later in time Masaland and Texla.

I have corrected the title so that the early ones are count of Kinhem and the counts before Floris II are count of Kinhem, Masaland and Texla. All three are gou's in the West-Frisia. Floris II does unite the gou's into Holland.