Pépin I, king of Aquitaine - Children missing?

This is what Marcello had sent me:

Father: Aquitaine, Pepin I d' Roi
Mother: Madrie, Ingeltrudis Ringart de
Family:
Marriage: AFT 839
Spouse:
Roussillon, Gerhard I de Chatelain
Birth : ABT 800
Death : 874/876 Lyon
Gender: Male
Parents:
Father: Elsass, Luithard von Graf
Children:
F1 Roussillon,Anonym de
Brignolles, Michel de
Birth : BEF 850
Gender: Male
Family:

Linda Irene Selleck any references we can dig up on this line would be great to look at.

When in doubt look in "Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants"(in three volumes). Issued by"The Order of the crown of Charlemagne in the United States of America" 1974.

Be very careful of the Order of Charlemagne book. Very uneven quality.

Leo van de Pas didn't develop the line but does have a source reference for Pepin ll King of Aquitaine

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00036219&tre...

Sources 
[S00160] Caroli Magni Progenies, Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977 , Rösch, Siegfried. 78

Might as well add the Wikipedia article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepin_II_of_Aquitaine

Thank you for the notice,Justin. I have noticed a couple of problems in some of the lines.

I suggest we use the Medlands page as a starting point for cleaning up this area: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/AQUITAINE.htm#PippinIAquitaine

1, Medlands shows certainly two sons Pepin II & Archbishop Charles, and perhaps two daughters, Mathilda and [unknown]. There is a difference of opinion among experts about whether these two women were daughters of this Pepin or of Emperor Louis.

Geni has some serious problems here. It adds an extra daughter Bertha (who is anachronistically called a princess). It thinks the unknown daughter is named Rothrude. It has another unknown daughter married to both Rathier and Gerhard instead of one daughter to each, and it does not link this Gerhard to his main Geni profile. Also, it has Archbishop Charles with a wife.

I'd want to see some truly primo sources if someone wants to argue with Medlands.

I could make these changes myself fairly easily, but I've seen so many people starting to take an interest in medieval lines I wonder if someone else wants to try their hand at doing the clean up. You'll need Erica's help with the bad MPs, and please remember to paste the Medlands link into the profiles. Hand holding available on request ;)

2. Geni says Pepin's wife was Ingeltrude. Medlands explains that Ingeltrude is an old mistake. Her name was really Ringardis. I'm the curator on this one, so I'll fix it but leave Ingeltrude as an AKA so people can find it.

Could this question be answered for me please?

Roussillon, Gerhard I de Chatelain

Is he married to the unnamed daughter of Pepin l (and therefore sister to Charles, Pepin ll, & [Matilde]?

But MedLands has her husband as RATHER Comte de Limoges

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#Ratherdied841

OR am I lost (probably that ...)

Not quite sure what you're asking.

Rather of Limoges (died 841) and Gerhard of Auvergne (died 841 in the same battle) were married to sisters, but it's not clear whether their father was Pepin or Louis.

There is no way to solve the problem. We have to just choose a way to present it that is not deceptive. Probably go with Medlands, and make them daughters of Pepin but annotate heavily.

Not sure who you mean by Gerhard de Roussillon. Can you provide a link?

https://www.geni.com/discussions/149338?msg=1038967

I have been trying to understand it and i don't, so ...

It's very confusing. I don't have any idea what it means. When I saw it I skipped over it because it doesn't relate to anything I can recognize.

BTW, I merged Gerard of Auvergne with his duplicate in Pepin I's family. Now that opens up another problem, but we can deal with that later.

The Gerhard of Roussillon you are looking for is this guy:
Gérard II, count of Roussillon

Very different family.

Gérard de ROUSSILLON
Comte de Paris, de Soissons et de Limoges
he married Berthe .,,

http://gw.geneanet.org/favrejhas?lang=fr&p=berthe&n=d+aquit...

https://books.google.ca/books?id=SI9NAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA71&lpg=P...
also
Gérard compte des Avernes

/////
Rathaire Compte de limoge /Mathilde

Now I moved Gerard of Auvergne to the correct wife.

I feel like I'm kibitzing ;)

No, you're fixing what is totally beyond my comprehension in historic areas I have little knowledge, so it's much appreciated.

I am really hoping European medievalists jump on this so I can back to Tudor England - about as medieval as I really get ....

Martin,

Medlands says:

GERARD [II] (-[11 Feb or 4 Mar] 874, bur Avignon). His parentage is confirmed by his testament under which "Gerardus [comes]" names "coniugis meæ…Berthæ…genitoribus atque parentibus…Luthardi et Grimildis atque…Hugonis et Bavæ…filiis et filiabus ipsorum" and "consanguinitate, affinitate et propinquitate etiam nobis junctis, id est Leufredi et Adalardi Comitum", and which is signed by "Gerardi comitis, Bertæ coniugis…Evæ filiæ ipsorum"[73]. Emperor Lothar confirmed a donation of property "in pago Arduennensi sitam…Villantia" to the abbey of Prüm by "Richardus quondam comes…per Biuinum fratrem suum, et Gerardum et Basinum qui et Tancredus comites" by charter dated 12 Nov 842[74], although it is not known whether this is the same Gerard. However, as both Gerard and the descendants of Bivin were associated with Provence, it is possible that their association started earlier in the Ardennes. Comte de Vienne. Emperor Lothar returned property to the church of Lyon, at the request of “Gerardus…comes atque marchio”, by charter dated to [852][75]. A document issued by Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks dated Nov 853 names "Folcoinus episcopus, Adalgarius, Engilscalcus et Berengarius" as missi in "comitatu Berengarii, Engilscalchi, Gerardi et in comitatibus Reginarii"[76], although it is not known whether this count Gerard is the same as the one named in the other references listed below. "Karoli rex, Hlotharii augusti filius" confirmed the privileges of the church of Villeurbane in favour of the church of Lyon at the request of "comes et parens noster ac nutritor Girardus" by charter dated 10 Oct 856[77]. The precise relationship between Comte Gérard and the Carolingian monarchs has not been established. Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks confirmed the foundation of the monastery "in pago Avalensi in parrochia Augustudunensis civitatis in loco…Virziliacus" by "Gerardus…comes", with the consent of "coniugis sue Berthæ", by charter dated 6 Jan 868[78]. The Chronico Vezeliacensi records that "Comes Girardus fundator hujus loci" died in 847 and was buried "apud Avinionem civitatem suam"[79], although this year is incorrect. The 13th century obituary of the Eglise primatiale de Lyon records the death "III Non" of "Geraldus comes"[80]. The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Germain-des-Prés records the death "IV Non Mar" of "Gerardi comitis"[81]. m BERTA, daughter of HUGUES Comte de Tours & his wife Ava --- (-[6 Nov] 877). Pope John VIII recalls "Gerardus comes…cum Berta quondam conjuge sua" as founders of the monastery referred to in his letter[82]. Her parentage is confirmed by her husband's testament under which "Gerardus [comes]" names "coniugis meæ…Berthæ…genitoribus atque parentibus…Luthardi et Grimildis atque…Hugonis et Bavæ…filiis et filiabus ipsorum"[83]. Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks confirmed the foundation of the monastery "in pago Avalensi in parrochia Augustudunensis civitatis in loco…Virziliacus" by "Gerardus…comes", with the consent of "coniugis sue Berthæ", by charter dated 6 Jan 868[84]. The Chronico Vezeliacensi records that "Berta comitissa hujus loci fundatrix" died in 844 and was buried "apud Pulterias"[85], although the year is incorrect. The 13th century obituary of the Eglise primatiale de Lyon records the death "VIII Id Nov" of "Berta comitissa"[86].

Erica, just say the word and I'd be happy to fix it. I'm just trying to give other people a chance to have fun ;)

I can't even read that MedLands page, it's so turgid.

Call me when there's sex.

:$

Erica, there's so much sex in there I was almost too embarrassed to post it ;)

Maybe restraining yourself is why the medievalists are hiding? We thought "missing children" was good bait ...

Fixed the items I mentioned above, except for Rothrude of Aquitaine. I don't know the source for her name, but it's possible there is evidence not yet included by MedLands.

https://goo.gl/72VOjp

in saint estiene de lyon church they got somthing on a berthe daugter of pepin married with a rousillon gerard///

i will let you read

well medlands need to be updated

the question i asking myself as a newbee in history of that period is somthing to do with (la chanson de rolland)?
chanson de geste

that was in old french not in latin
and some word was worked out to sound latin/spanish

but it was old french

here just a reminder from my grand mother

paris was long time called PARISSSSSS with extra ssss sound its later that french elitist decide to cut the sss sound

english ppl actualy say it in proper way despite of french

Martin that book reference makes me very happy! I didn't want to think I was being steered down a wrong path. Oh, yay!

Can we find out more about this de Roussillon family as a cross reference?

A quick look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_Roland doesn't show the characters of the time of Pepin ll.

But chansons de geste as a genre are of course of Aquitaine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanson_de_geste

The chanson de geste was also adapted in southern (Occitan-speaking) France. One of the three surviving manuscripts of the chanson Girart de Roussillon (12th century) is in Occitan,[60] as are two works based on the story of Charlemagne and Roland, Rollan a Saragossa[61] and Ronsasvals (early 12th century).[62] The chanson de geste form was also used in such Occitan texts as Canso d'Antioca (late 12th century), Daurel e Betó (first half of the 13th century), and Song of the Albigensian Crusade (c.1275) (cf Occitan literature).

Ahhhhh!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girart_de_Roussillon

BUT

Girart fought at the Battle of Fontenay in 841, and doubtlessly followed Lothair I, his future brother-in-law, to Aix-en-Provence. In 843, he married Bertha, daughter of Hugh of Tours and sister of Ermengarde of Tours, Lothair's wife.

Girart became governor of Provence for Lothair's son Charles, nominal king of Provence. His wife Bertha defended Vienne unsuccessfully against Charles the Bald in 870. Girart, who had perhaps aspired to be the titular ruler of the northern part of Provence, continued to administer it under Lothair II until that prince's death in 869. He retired with his wife to Avignon where he died probably in 877, certainly before 879 ....

And in http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FRANKISH%20NOBILITY.htm#GerardVienn...

a)         GERARD [II] (-[11 Feb or 4 Mar] 874, bur Avignon).  His parentage is confirmed by his testament under which "Gerardus [comes]" names "coniugis meæ…Berthæ…genitoribus atque parentibus…Luthardi et Grimildis atque…Hugonis et Bavæ…filiis et filiabus ipsorum" and "consanguinitate, affinitate et propinquitate etiam nobis junctis, id est Leufredi et Adalardi Comitum", and which is signed by "Gerardi comitis, Bertæ coniugis…Evæ filiæ ipsorum"[73].  Emperor Lothar confirmed a donation of property "in pago Arduennensi sitam…Villantia" to the abbey of Prüm by "Richardus quondam comes…per Biuinum fratrem suum, et Gerardum et Basinum qui et Tancredus comites" by charter dated 12 Nov 842[74], although it is not known whether this is the same Gerard.  However, as both Gerard and the descendants of Bivin were associated with Provence, it is possible that their association started earlier in the Ardennes.  Comte de Vienne.  Emperor Lothar returned property to the church of Lyon, at the request of “Gerardus…comes atque marchio”, by charter dated to [852][75].  A document issued by Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks dated Nov 853 names "Folcoinus episcopus, Adalgarius, Engilscalcus et Berengarius" as missi in "comitatu Berengarii, Engilscalchi, Gerardi et in comitatibus Reginarii"[76], although it is not known whether this count Gerard is the same as the one named in the other references listed below.  "Karoli rex, Hlotharii augusti filius" confirmed the privileges of the church of Villeurbane in favour of the church of Lyon at the request of "comes et parens noster ac nutritor Girardus" by charter dated 10 Oct 856[77].  The precise relationship between Comte Gérard and the Carolingian monarchs has not been established.  Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks confirmed the foundation of the monastery "in pago Avalensi in parrochia Augustudunensis civitatis in loco…Virziliacus" by "Gerardus…comes", with the consent of "coniugis sue Berthæ", by charter dated 6 Jan 868[78].  The Chronico Vezeliacensi records that "Comes Girardus fundator hujus loci" died in 847 and was buried "apud Avinionem civitatem suam"[79], although this year is incorrect.  The 13th century obituary of the Eglise primatiale de Lyon records the death "III Non" of "Geraldus comes"[80].  The necrology of the abbey of Saint-Germain-des-Prés records the death "IV Non Mar" of "Gerardi comitis"[81].  m BERTA, daughter of HUGUES Comte de Tours & his wife Ava --- (-[6 Nov] 877).  Pope John VIII recalls "Gerardus comes…cum Berta quondam conjuge sua" as founders of the monastery referred to in his letter[82].  Her parentage is confirmed by her husband's testament under which "Gerardus [comes]" names "coniugis meæ…Berthæ…genitoribus atque parentibus…Luthardi et Grimildis atque…Hugonis et Bavæ…filiis et filiabus ipsorum"[83].  Charles II "le Chauve" King of the West Franks confirmed the foundation of the monastery "in pago Avalensi in parrochia Augustudunensis civitatis in loco…Virziliacus" by "Gerardus…comes", with the consent of "coniugis sue Berthæ", by charter dated 6 Jan 868[84].  The Chronico Vezeliacensi records that "Berta comitissa hujus loci fundatrix" died in 844 and was buried "apud Pulterias"[85], although the year is incorrect.  The 13th century obituary of the Eglise primatiale de Lyon records the death "VIII Id Nov" of "Berta comitissa"[86]. 

Gérard [II] & his wife had one child: 

i)          EVA .  The testament of "Gerardus [comes]" is signed by "Gerardi comitis, Bertæ coniugis…Evæ filiæ ipsorum"[87]. 

"Lutetia Parisiorum", was the roman name for Paris, inhabitanted by the Celtic iron age tribe Parisii. Maybe there should have been a lot of iiiii
at the end instead of "PARISSSSSS". ; )

i am not realy an expert i learn as i read to be truthfull

i try to get the ROySSILLON Roussillon family info i can get ..its only bit at time

i wish to have a real solid old book to read it ,,, from my eyes nows ...the (nappe) they talk about it in the book in saint etiene de lyon i shearch for a picture

(i love doing this kind of shearch :) )

Me too!

And we learn together, eh? With the team to help ensure we get it right.