Ida "secunda" de Longespee?

Started by Private User on Thursday, September 17, 2015
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Private User
9/17/2015 at 3:03 PM

It seems that William de Longespee William Longespée, 3rd Earl of Salisbury and Ela of Salisbury Ela, 3rd Countess of Salisbury suo jure may have had a second daughter Ida, who married Walter FitzRobert of Woodham (lots of these Fitz guys running around!)

Medlands reconstructs the situation thusly:

9. IDA Longespee (-after 10 Apr 1262). The Book of Lacock names “Isabellam de Vescy…Elam…Idam de Camyle” as the daughters of “Guillelmus Longespe ex…Ela”, adding that Ida married “Walterus filius Roberti” by whom she had “Catarinam et Loricam…velatæ…apud Lacock, Elam, quam duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingseles, de qua genuit ---, Robertum, qui Dernogoill ---“[1806]. This second daughter called Ida must have been a different person from his older sister also named Ida, as the latter received dower from her second husband William de Beauchamp after his death in 1260, so clearly could not have married Walter FitzRobert before 1247. m (before 1247) WALTER FitzRobert of Woodham Walter, Essex, son of ROBERT FitzWalter of Woodham & his second wife Rohese --- (-shortly before 10 Apr 1258).

WALTER FitzRobert of Woodham Walter, Essex, [only] son of ROBERT FitzWalter & his second wife Rohese --- (-shortly before 10 Apr 1258). Bracton records an inquiry, dated 1234/35, whether "Cristiana de Mandevilla soror Walteri filii Roberti" was seised of part of land "in Dersingham", which descended to her "ex parte Gunnore matris sue" and was inherited by "Henricus de Bailloil et Lora uxor eius" because "idem Walterus non fuit frater predicte Cristiane nisi ex parte patris"[921].

m (before 1247) IDA de Longespee, daughter of WILLIAM Longespee Earl of Salisbury & his wife Ela Ctss of Salisbury (-after 10 Apr 1262). The Book of Lacock names “Isabellam de Vescy…Elam…Idam de Camyle” as the daughters of “Guillelmus Longespe ex…Ela”, adding that Ida married “Walterus filius Roberti” by whom she had “Catarinam et Loricam…velatæ…apud Lacock, Elam, quam duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingseles, de qua genuit ---, Robertum, qui Dernogoill ---“[922].

Walter & his wife had four children:

1. ROBERT FitzWalter (Henham 1247-18 Jan 1326).

2. CATHERINE, nun at Lacock.

3. LORICA, another nun at Lacock.

4. ELA . The Book of Lacock names “Isabellam de Vescy…Elam…Idam de Camyle” as the daughters of “Guillelmus Longespe ex…Ela”, adding that Ida married “Walterus filius Roberti” by whom she had “Catarinam et Loricam…velatæ…apud Lacock, Elam, quam duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingseles, de qua genuit ---, Robertum, qui Dernogoill ---“[927]. m firstly WILLIAM de Dodingsells, son of ---. m secondly ---.

Walter's father, Robert FitzWalter of Woodham, was the son of Walter FitzRobert of Dunmow and the grandson of Robert FitzRichard de Clare. Details here: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3D-K.htm#Wal...

A different reconstruction makes this Ida the daughter of Sir William Longespee Sir William Longespée and Idoine de Camville Idoine de Camville, Countess of Salisbury, which also works if you get the dates lined up right. (Idoine was at most a "courtesy" Countess, as her husband predeceased his mother and never actually held the title Earl of Salisbury.)

This would appear to be the couple in question:

Walter Walter FitzRobert, Lord of Little Dunmow

Ida Ida "secunda" de Longespee

Private User
9/17/2015 at 3:11 PM

Advantages of the William/Idoine reconstruction are that it accounts for the "de Camyle" (Camville?) reference and avoids having two daughters named Ida in the same generation in the same family.

Private User
9/22/2015 at 7:15 AM

Can we get a consensus on this? Is she the youngest(?) daughter of William (FitzHenry) de Longespee and Ela of Salisbury, or the oldest(?) daughter of Sir William (FitzWilliam) Longespee and Idoine de Camville?

9/22/2015 at 7:59 AM

I went to the Ida de Longspee profile linked at the bottom of your 1st post...on Sept. 10, 2015, 12 generations of profiles were added upline for Ida, taking her back to Rothilde of the Franks. No sources were listed. What do you think - valid, or not?

To your original question, I just started looking at this...

Private User
9/22/2015 at 2:20 PM

The tree is partially correct for Ela of Salisbury...but the question is, was Ela or Idoine Ida's mother?

(The "official" tree for Ela has some problems, too!)

Private User
9/24/2015 at 7:22 AM

It's Ela. I got mine from the New England Hist Gen research dept. There was also an Ida. Two different people. Just like there are two William Longsprees '. One is the father and illigetment son of King Henry the 2nd and the other killed during the Crusades was the son of the first.

Private User
9/24/2015 at 8:22 AM

Okay, so it's Ida "prima" and Ida "secunda", and they were excessively fond of that name. :-P

Too bad they didn't have a little more imagination. :-P

Private User
9/24/2015 at 8:26 AM

Can I have Ida "secunda" de Longespee's "About" unlocked long enough to include this information? (I wish people wouldn't lock up even the "About" sections unless there have been editing wars!)

11/22/2015 at 8:47 PM

Private User I unlocked her. After you get her profile fixed up, let me know if you want me to lock down any of the fields to keep her from getting merged with other Ida's.

Pam

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