Knut den harde - Whose son was he?

Started by Justin Durand on Saturday, October 24, 2015
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10/24/2015 at 9:16 AM

Could we take another look at the relationships around Knut Sweynson (Harthacnut I)?

Geni currently says Harthacnut was son of Sveyn. A curator note for Sveyn says "There is no proof that Sveyn is son of Sigurd."

I'm not sure where anyone says Sveyn is a son of Sigurd.

1. Adam of Bremen (11th century) says Harthacnut was son an otherwise unknown king Sweyn.

2. Ragnarssona þáttr (13th century) says Harthacnut (not Sveyn) was son of Sigurd Snake-in-the-Eye, one of the sons of Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson.

3. Saxo Grammaticus (13th century) says Harthacnut was son of Erik, a descendant of Ragnar Lodbrok, by Gudorm, a granddaughter of Harald Klak.

So where does the idea come from that Sveyn was the son of Sigurd? The two profiles don't yet have any kind of organized presentation, so the answer could be there but if it is I'm not seeing it.

10/24/2015 at 9:52 AM
10/24/2015 at 9:56 AM

The debate at resulted in a fairly wide set of sources. We should review that..

10/24/2015 at 10:03 AM

This is why I've said "take another look". The profiles seem to be as correctly connected as we can make them, but the note about Sveyn as a son of Sigurd is non-sensical. A message to all managers this morning shows it is leading to confusion.

10/24/2015 at 10:14 AM

Let me re-phrase the question.

The curator note implies there is some sort of unexplained background here. For example, I would expect the profile to say something like "Saga X says the father of Knut den harde was King Sveyn, who was the son of Sigurd somebody, but the chronology doesn't work."

That is, there would be some source and point of reference for the curator note.

My question is this -- what source says that? In other words, what problem is the curator note trying to explain?

10/24/2015 at 10:46 AM

Since you have trouble understand what I write in english I'll just make my curator notes from now on in danish. I am sure you can get something out of Google translate!

10/24/2015 at 10:52 AM

Anette, there's no reason to be snarky about it. It's not the English I don't understand, it's the statement. There should be a simple answer to this. It will be in the form "The information comes from Saga X", whatever Saga X might be.

10/24/2015 at 11:00 AM

Well you can talk to Harald about that he has the sources as well. And since we are talking sources you should take a look at the sources of your Ragnar project. You have left quit a few out.
Apparently to you its pic and choose

10/24/2015 at 11:09 AM

I'll get there, Anette. I've just begun on that project. Sources still to come.

Maybe it's not as obvious as I thought it was, but my question here has a lot to do Ragnar Lodbrok. There's an issue of echoing or reciprocating problems.

One of the reasons for thinking Ragnar is just a myth is that the chronology doesn't work. And one reason the chronology doesn't work is the problem of dating Sigurd Snake-in-the-Eye. And one of the problems of dating Sigurd is the question of his children.

So ... if there is a source that says this Sveyn was son of Sigurd then that would be very interesting.

10/24/2015 at 12:22 PM

Did the same to you.

10/24/2015 at 12:27 PM

OK. Then, back to my question. What is the source for the idea that this Sveyn was the son of Sigurd (Snake in the Eye)?

10/24/2015 at 12:59 PM

Justin, you've already cited the two sources that, if one tries to believe them both and assumes that "son of Sigurd" was really "descendant of Sigurd" in Ragnarssona þattr, Sigurd was an ancestor of Sveyn (not necessarily his father).

I think I've seen the illogical jump to "Sigurd is Sveyn's father" represented in references to English "genealogies of the kings", but I'm not able to lay my hands on an example at the moment - sorry about that!

10/26/2015 at 2:24 AM

Thanks, Harald. I'm not sure I see the point of saying that Sveyn could not have been a son of Sigurd if no one is saying he was.

I think what you're saying is that if Ragnarssona þattr says Harthicnut was a son of Sigurd then it might mean that he was a descendant, and if it means he was a descendant then when Adam of Bremen says Harthicnut's father was really Sveyn, then maybe Ragnarssona þattr is implying that this unknown Sveyn was a son (or descendant) of Sigurd.

Quite a stretch I think, but probably best to just ignore the curator note and move on.

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2/18/2021 at 10:37 AM

Hallo zusammen ,mein Stammbaum gehr von Prinzessin Estrid tochter von Sweyn I Gabelbart der Sohn von Harald I Blauzahn bis zu dessen Vater Gorn der Gamle Kong von Danmark und dessen Vater Knut Sweynsson I der Harte.. Wer weiß mehr zu diesem Thema ? Gruß Nils Eckhardt

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