Juliana Morton (Butler) - There are inconsistencies in this profile.

Erica Isabel Howton needs to look at this. In her source notes, "the Visitation of Shropshire", it names Ralph le Boteler as her father. It also refers to him as "Randolph" - which would make him the same person & the parent change would be incorrect, if I'm interpreting the info correctly.

I was hoping you'd help, Linda, :)

Dating this area is a night mare, it falls out of sync so easily !

Here's a tree that has them a Gen earlier (b 1411) - no idea why

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=tree1...+

I'm tempted to cut loose the time traveling grandfather ....

This is a traditional tree GEDCOM based

http://fam.eastmill.com/f744.htm

This tree has more references

http://www.the-sims-family.net/genealogy/sims/index.htm?http://free...

This site is what I had worked with last time around
http://www.robertsewell.ca/puleston.html

Maybe a cleanup based on it?

Your 1st reference gives Sybil Norbury as the wife of Rabdolph Butler, born 1377. The only Sybil Norbury I could find married Sir William de Hulse & was born 1318. Died 1364.

Ralph le Botiler of Norbury is also referred to as Randolph. His birth is given as "between 1233 & 1265. His brother was born in 1245, so he would likely have been born closer to that date. Still too early for our Juliana.

Following Ralph downline, with stops to check out siblings, we come to Ralph le Boteler (1305-1365) who was born in Norbury, Shropshire but died in Woodhall Park, Hertfordshire. Downline from this Ralph, the Botelers were from Hertfordshire. Juliana's info states that she "was born ca. 1440 in Norbury and whose uncle was Lord Butler of Norbury."

On a positive note, all the sources give Elizabeth Puleston's mother as the daughter of Adam de Chetwynd, Lord of Flotesbroute, Staffordshire & Eva de Oswaldestere, so I don't see why this line can't be restored on geni.

Linda - would you be able to go ahead restoring the Puleston's?

I think we're close to saying "don't know" on Julian Boteler's parents ...

Geoff. Baines by any chance do you have any sources or insight ?

I'd be happy to, except for the following:

1. Adam de Chetwynd, husband of Eva de Oswaldestre, was born ca. 1229 & died before 12/28/1282

2. His dau., Alicia de Chetwynd, b. 1268, married Jordan Puleston. They are listed as having 3 sons; although, in the Curator's Box you noted that Alicia was the mother of Elizabeth. So, at least, we have a name for "NN Puleston",dau. of Adam Chetwynd.

3. Technically, apparently I can not - usually, I can make changes to an existing geni profile with my tablet. But, tonight it only let me change the display name for Nn Puleston to Jordan Puleston. Sorry!

Do you suppose there are some missing generations?

I notice there are several Ralphs Boteler along generations in this family, so care must be taken not to fall in the original error, homonyms with generational leaps. Also, in this family there are marriages with inlaws that can lead to confusion.

After much discernment I conclude the following tree of Juliana is correct:
https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/holloway-family-tree/P6764.php

Also, I found this document which seems to be very reliable and has great research on Thomas Butler´s (Boteler) family.
http://www.richardiii.net/downloads/Ricardian/2004_vol14_ashdown_hi...

Great document! I'd love to see it cited on the relevant profiles if anyone is interested.

Great frustration.
I have spent many hours researching for this Juliana. I have found a lot of sources for the Butlers and Norburys, but I still can’t figure out who is this Juliana.

All my conclusions drive me to who she is not. All existing online trees with the names of her parents seem to be wrong. There are documentary sources that forfeit all stated parents.

There is something that is driving me crazy and seems to be a big clue. The note in p. 260 of The Visitations of Shropshire: “Rad’i Butler 2 fr’is”
I am not familiar with ancient English or Latin and this peculiar genealogical abbreviations.
Can someone throw some light on this?

Saludos, Gael

The item in question appears to read, "Juliana, daughter of Ralph Butler, 2nd brother of (no name) Butler of Norbury".

The Chetwynds, by the way, are a Shropshire family that branched out into the Midlands. Sir Thomas Malory's Sir Thomas Malory, of Newbold Revel mother was Philippa Chetwynd Philippa Mallore.

It must also b

Aack - crazy mouse jump posted my reply before it was finished!

It must also be noted that the Visitations of Shropshire are among the worst, most incomplete, most slipshod and error-ridden of the entire series. I can state with absolute certainty that the Benthall, Burnell, and Corbet lineages are not to be relied on.

Thanks for the light Maven.

I know that “fil.” stands for “filia”. Based on what you explain, “Rad” should be the abbreviation for “Randolph” and “fr” should stand for “fratrem” (brother), and the apostrophes to indicate the omission of letters. The “i” is still mysterious for me.

And the “s” for plural. In which case, “fr” stands for “fratres” (brothers).

Ralph indeed, inherited the title after the death of his two (only) brothers.

The problem is that this Ralph is widely documented, and all his issue mentioned, but there is no Juliana among them. Seemingly, he didn’t have a daughter Juliana with neither of his two wives.

If The Visitations of Shropshire is not fully reliable, then maybe we should give a step back and first confirm the name of Thomas Morton’s wife, as Juliana apparently didn’t exist.

This Juliana is like a pebble in my shoe. I hope someone comes with a reliable source that solves the mistery.

Again, thanks for your help.

Visitations of Shropshire is downright UNreliable, unfortunately, especially back before parish records. I know for certain, having done the research, that the Burnell and Benthall pedigrees in the Visitations do NOT match land records - there is even a Benthall-Burnell crossover that you would *never* know about from the Visitations (Benthall heiress married a Burnell, and her descendants reclaimed the Benthall name).

Then there's Margaret Not-A-Mallory, who was the widow of Robert Corbet when she married William Mallory of Papworth St. Agnes; she was probably a Burley by birth, as John Burley was the guardian of Robert Corbet while he was underage. Nevertheless the Visitations jam her onto the Mallory(!) tree, and mishandle the Corbets as well.