When is a male Prog not an SV?

My thoughts - how long did his children survive - long enough to have children of their own? If those children didn't have children then it just peters out but he is still SV of any children who had progeny. No progeny from his children - not SV. Daan will have a better idea!

There are living female descendants, but no males.
Prog applies - but since an SM is defined as the wife of the surnamed Prog, then surely the SV must be the surnamed Prog?

Daan Botes

Sharon, not certain that I understand. (hen surely the SV must be the surnamed Prog?)
In my opinion the SV/Prog remains regardless whether there are no males. The females, regardless of married names, is still progeny of the original SV/PROG. ( In my and my wife's families we have at least 4 family lines where the surname stopped due to only females amongst the chidren
If all the sons leave a country, some of their descendants might surface again and then the SV/PROG must still be valid (and not creating a new one)

I'm good with that. Although I wish we'd just gone with 'Progenitor' as a designator - The SV/ SM thing is a nightmare - as we have female progenitors who aren't Stam Moeders.

I take it you mean here=If all the sons [AND/OR DAUGHTERS] leave a country, some of their descendants might surface again and then the SV/PROG must still be valid (and not creating a new one)=

The specific example that prompted this was
'NORTJE: Although 3 members of the Nourtier or Nortier family came from Calais, namely Jacob Naude married to Margaretha Mouton; Jean Nortje & Daniel Nortje, all the Nortje descendants in SA derive from Daniel & his wife Marie Vitout.'

But Daniel Nortjé / Nortier, SV/PROG is presently labelled as SV Prog 3
when Jean Nourtier had no kids,
& Jacques Nourtier, SV/PROG has no modern Nortje descendants.

I agree Daan.
If there were issues left, then he and she did leave a legacy behind.
J

Just to make sure you are following my question -
There is no doubt the man is a Progenitor. He definitely is.
He's just not necessarily a Stam Vader, if he doesn't produce a surname line, or that's what Krige seems to be suggesting. The problem is that we seem to be suggesting it too, by distinguishing between a Stam Moeder (the wife of a Surname stam head) and a femal Prog (who may well be her mother).

So, for example - Jacob Nourtier's wife: Margaretha Nourtier, b6 SM is presently designated SM, for no other reason than she's the wife of Jacob, the SV.

Her own mother, Marie de Villiers, SM/PROG is the Prog though.

So, Margaretha Mouton is the Stam Moeder of the Nortje line - except there is no Nortje line from Jacob.

Quiet complicated I would say. How can one marries to become his own Grandfather?

Dries we once said we will put a smile before trying to explain ourself- in case of misunderstanding. It is in friendship that I reply.
☺

Even if they only had daughters she is still the SM/PROG. They had 5 children. So his wife did leave a line- even if its is maternal, I think the chiildren carries Nortje and Mouton blood in there veins. So she is the Nortje SM but her mother is the de Villiers SM.
Or am I totally misinterpreting the whole issue and question here?
"Over gesed synde"- Ek is 'n Marais nie 'n Meyer nie, but my daughter Julanie is a Meyer and not a Basson.
Dries, jou idee's rondom my beskrywing?
You can answer in English there are just some thing I explain better in Afrikaans.

One more question - Is Stamvader not the Afrikaans equivalant of Progenitor?
Daan?

"Over gesed synde" - What does that mean? Can't get google translate to tell me. Sorry. Dom.

=Ek is 'n Marais nie 'n Meyer nie, but my daughter Julanie is a Meyer and not a Basson=
This is exactly the issue I'm trying to pinpoint. This is exactly where Stamvader is not the Afrikaans equivalent of Progenitor.

1.) Progenitor = someone with descendants. It has the konnotasies of voorvader / moeder. Can one say 'voorouer' in Afrikaans?

vs

2.) Stamvader = someone who is the surname ancestor. (ie your Marais father is yours)
3.) Stammoeder = someone who is the wife of the surname ancestor. (ie your mother of the Marais descendants. Julani of the Basson descendants)

These actually have very different implications, especially if there are no surnamed descendants. eg If the first Meyer had only daughters - there would be no Meyer stam for him to be stamvader of.

I would say that, to be consistent with the definition;men who have only daughters cannot be Stam Vaders'.
They are Progenitors if they are the first SA father, but not a Stam Vader if there is no Surname Stam descending from them.

1 "Over gesegd synde" It is a proverb/idioom (actually it is stiil Dutch) Meaning to repeat/say again/stand by what was said. It Lost its real meaning when translated.

2, The Stamvader with only daughters will still be S/V but will be explained with. "Unluckily he had only daughters so the surname wasn't carried on. -:)

:-) Bit long to put in the suffix:-)

What does the Americans call their progenitors. I believe it is something like' founder father "
I think that is better word for'" Progenitor" in the sense that we are using it.

Over geset synde (ook overgeset synde) word in Nederlands geskryf as overgezet zijnde en het in Engels die betekenis "In other words"

Maar die res van julle bespreking is ook interessant :)

Sharon, vir my het Stamvader en Progenitor dieselfde betekenis. Die Engelse vertaling vir die "stam" in stamvader is "tribe". 'n Stamvader is dus die eerste manlike draer van die familienaam in Suid-Afrika en die vroegste voorvader in Suid-Afrika van almal wat die familienaam dra (tensy daar natuurlik meer as een stamvader was en dus meer stomme met dieselde familienaam). In albei gevalle (Stamvader / Progenitor) moet daar 'n nageslag wees. Of dit een of meer geslagte is en of die nageslag manlik of vroulik is speel volgens my geen rol nie.

Ek dink dit is ook wat Daan se standpunt was.

Ek dink trouens dat "Patriarch" waarskynlik 'n beter vertaling van die Afrikaanse "Stamvader" is, maar "Progenitor" is ook bes bruikbaar.

Hi Louis. Thanks for the translation 'in other words' - I'm answering quickly, so forgive me if I do it in English - it will take me painfully long to be happy with my Afrikaans on a complex issue like this one, and you'll wait forever.

The point here has a long history of us trying to define the role of a Stam Moeder in the (DVN) system that originally only saw her as the mother of the Surnamed Tribe. (ie the wife of the Stam Vader) That left women who hadn't married Stam Vaders, but were the oldest ancestor to arrive in SA without a designation.

Since the Afrikaans Stam Vader & Moeder excluded the English, we had already decided to add the word Progenitor into it, and now it became a way of recognising the mothers of the SV/SMs who came with, but didn't marry an SV.

So we are not actually worrying about the translation. We are worrying about what category is being defined by it.
It seems obvious at first, until you hit the cases that don't fit. eg Daan didn't like the fact that the mothers who came to this country, but didn't marry a South African SV, didn't get a title. They were definitely Progenitors, so how could we leave them out? But, if we called them Stam Moeders, then their daughter who had married the SV, lost the title. That didn't seem right either. So here is the solution: https://www.geni.com/projects/South-African-Progenitors-Matriarchs-...

Right now, I'm pointing to the fact that there will be a few cases where a male SA Progenitor (oldest biological male of a line in SA) has only daughters, and therefore no tribe of his own according to the DVN system ie all his grandchildren belong to other men's stams.

=Ek dink trouens dat "Patriarch" waarskynlik 'n beter vertaling van die Afrikaanse "Stamvader" is.=
Yes, I think you are correct, and you will see my point then - that we needed another word that described the biological reality outside a patriarchal familienaam system of stams, because matriarchs aren't actually the wives of the Stam Vaders, but the oldest mother of a line.

My initial point is that I'd like to do away with the SV/SM designator altogether - because it loses the biological reality of female as well as male descent lines.

What we need for that is an Afrikaans word that means Progenitor, not an English word that means Stam Vader/Moeder.

Genearg, is an Afrikaans term that can be used for any gender and is not reliant on whether family names have survived or not. Hope this helps

Really useful. But what is the translation? I can't get google translate to find it.

Nee OO AARDE Alex, ou Neef, jy het seker daardie woord in die "
Blokraaiwoordeboek" gekry. en darvolgens is dit nog steeds 'STAMVADER"

Please I do not want to descend from a sexless fabricated noun.
Of old, even before my time, women love their husbands so much that they willingly and gladly sacrifice their surnames on the altar of love: As commanded they become one in flesh, the husband leave his mother and father and cling unto his wife. (or something like that_)

Sounds more like monkeys to me :-)

The point is not about married women at all, though. It's about the problem of excluding biological progenitors who are not married to Stam Vaders - which is what this does.
So, we are left without an Afrikaans designator for your mtDNA Progenitor, unless she's married to a Stam Vader.

It can be that I am still in the woods "Monkeying" But you cant combine two systems, the present one who is" Surname" originated and another one who is " Dna "Orginated under the
system that we are now using. They should develop a whole new system with/for all the the different Dna Haplogroups .
Take for instance my MtDna Haplogroup Mc30c1. The Starting point in South Africa is "Jannetje Bort" so all people with this Haplogroup should form a tree. The different markers will indicate how near you are related and under this system you can place a person in the right place in the family line. Never mind hat the surname is.
I think the Dna Analyzing hasn't develop enough to bring that into practice in this stage.

If the Afrikaans/South African system is the bother, what are other countries using?