Alice Dalton - The Daltons are In Need of Untangling

Hi Anne, look this profile of Alice Dalton.:

http://fabpedigree.com/s085/f865705.htm

This pedigree, is, unfortunately, not solving the problem, as it has, along with many other web trees, conflated two Alice Daltons.

That's exactly our problem!

We need to figure out how to untangle them

Following, with interest. I have 3 sibling lines from the 2 wives of Gwilym, so curious to know which Alice Dalton is correct.
As long as you're working in this area, when you look at the profile of Richard Dalton's father, John Dalton, Jr, the curator's box states he has 2 known sons - 4 are listed.
Also, Gwilym's granddaughter, Janet Gruffydd, dau of William Griffith, m. William Herbert -- but, which one? The likely candidate, by birthdate, is Sir Wm Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke. However, he has 3 wives already. His half-brother, William Herbert of Troye, is the next possibility. The profile connected to Janet doesn't list parents...is it likely that William descends from William ap Thomas, the Blue Knight of Gwent??
Glad you're willing to wade in here! :-)

Thanks to Felipe González de Otoya De Narváez followup we now think we have this Ales Dalton with her correct parents. Well done!

Anne Brannen I think that we have to find out about the parenting of Ales (Alice) Dalton, of Althorp.

The dates of birth of Katherine de Venables to be her mother.

More Alice de Clifford the daughter of the 5th Lord Clifford. Not the 7th Lord Clifford.

Please help.

We have her not as the daughter of Katherine Venables, but of Alice de Clifford, which is right. I will check again on Alice dr Clifford 's parentage.

Or at least that Richard Dalton married very old and with Alice de Clifford gave birth to Alice Dalton really late.

The dates may need tweaking.

Ah, no, I see the problem.

the sources make Alice Dalton the daughter of Elizabeth Percy, the daughter of Hotspur. But that doesn't work with the dates.

Back to the drawing board.

Thanks for pointing this out!

I believe by mother's and daughter's name... and also by the date of birth of William Griffith... that Alice de Clifford is indeed daughter of the 7th Lord Clifford.

The Alice de Clifford, though, who is the mother of Alice Dalton HAS to be the grand daughter of Hotspur.

So... Can you the curator note then on Alice de Clifford profile?

I can do various things -- the main thing I'm going to do, when I get the chance (I'm in the middle of some other things at the moment) is chart out very clearly how the Daltons and the Cliffords are connected.

And then get things straightened out and make notes.

@Erica, are you in on this, too?

Sure, this is an interesting problem, as the sources are contradictory. But the Welsh source seems the best. :) In a sense we need a summary "opinion" to explain the choices we've made for presentation on Geni?

I do think the curator's note reflects best evidence?

"Alice Dalton was the daughter of Sir Richard Dalton, Knight, and Alice de Clifford. She was born in 1390 in Wales and died in 1444 in Apethorpe, Northampton, England. She married William "Fychan" ap Gwilym, Chamberlain of North Wales. Two known children."

I haven't looked carefully at Katherine de Venables, maybe that could be an approach on my end?

Oh and the two Jonet's make me crazy

Jonet Vaughan & Jonet Vaughan

Can they be merged?

I said Yes.

Yes, I think they are the same.

the problem with the dates in the Welsh lines often come form the fact that in the medieval genealogies, generations get left out, and then later generations come along and attempt to figure out the dating.

so I am ok with merging them, though the dates differ so.

Name? Jonet Griffith?

The Griffitth comes from her grandfather.

I myself would call her Jonet verch William, and put Jonet Griffith in the nickname field, since she is often referred to as that.

OR the other thing I have been doing with what I think of as the Welsh Temporal Border Profiles (that is, they lived during the time when they had both Welsh names and the beginnings of "surnames," all of which are coming out of the older generations) is to put Jonet as the first name, Griffith as the last name, and verch William as the brth name.

And then the display name comes up as Jonet Griffith, which is how she was known, but if someone like me is searching for the actual name, the Welsh shows up easily, AND it's visible in the profile, making the name switch visible.

And I would add Janet Salisbury into the nickname field.

So!

This was from 2016; things are still messed up; This Alice Dalton cannot be the child of the mother she's been given, AND her dates contradict the curator's notes.

So we need to untangle again, and lock everything down.

Erica Howton -- you were in on this. And this merge might be good but might be problematic -- https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=69869153520

When in doubt, undo - can always re do. Merge undone.

The problems with the merge undo (besides curator notes & dates) is the source documents are attached, in great detail, to Ales (Alice) Dalton, of Althorp and not to Ales (Alice) Dalton, of Althorp

So I think we’ll want to determine which curator note applies to which Alice, and re merge ?

Right.

And I see above that the source documents are REALLY problematic and so we decided to go with the Welsh.

Isabel "Margaret" Pilkington is Ales (Alice) Dalton, of Althorp's grandmother! Applies to either mother so that doesn’t help.

If the “Stanley connection” is meant to be blood relation, then wouldn’t her mother have been Isabel Dalton ?

For what it’s worth Wikitree is showing her with mother unknown in the tree, estimated birth date 1422, daughter of the Richard who married Katherine Venables but didn’t necessarily have children with her.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dalton-724

How do you feel about this solution?