Hugues, Duke of Burgundy - Petronilla d/o Duke of Burgundy and

Started by Terry Jackson (Switzer) on Monday, October 10, 2016
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Related Projects:

Showing all 21 posts

Is this Hugues de Bourgogne father of Petronilla?
Is he abbot and or Archbishop?
Private User seems to believe he was
George J. Homs has disconnected him from his parents (Hugo, Archchancellor of the Empire)

Petronilla has also been detached from her family. This is the relevant entry for her in Medlands:

HUGUES . m ---. The name of Hugues's wife is not known. Hugues & his wife had two children:
a) HUGUES . The Gestis Consulum Andegavensium names "Hugo Dux Burgundiæ, filius alterius Hugonis" was "ex parte matris suæ [Fulco] consanguineus"[623]. [Duke of Burgundy]. This is the only reference so far identified to a duke of Burgundy in the late 9th century and should presumably therefore be treated with caution.
b) PETRONILLA . The Gesta Consulum Andegavensium records the marriage of "Tertullus nobilem dux" and "ducis Burgundiæ filiam nomine Petronillam"[624]. The Chronico Turonensi names "Ingelgerius comes Andergavensis" as "nepos Hugonis Ducis Burgundiæ"[625]. m TERTULLUS, son of TORQUATIUS & his wife ---.

I know this does not really help but translated is

Petronella Auxerre
Born around 825 in Burgundy
Deceased about 919 in Anjou [Pays de la Loire - France] (about 94 years)

Daughter of a nobleman from Burgundy with the name Hugo.

CHILD of Tertullus and Petronella:
I. Ingelger Born about 845

found at - http://www.haroldborger.nl/genealogie/generatiestamboom/gen36.html

and this twist I found lists her as "fictional person"

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Des_Francs-14
Petronilla "fictional person" Bourgogne formerly des Francs
Born about 0825 in Rhineland, Prussia
Daughter of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Wife of Tertullus (Anjou) de Gatinais — married 0844 [location unknown]
Mother of Ingelger Anjou
Died 0845 in Aachen, , Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany

A lot of trees I am seeing her listed simply as "Petronella" with no given data as to birth, death and parents.

Regarding Hugues de Bourgogne

this is what I have on my Ancestry .com tree

"Hugh the Abbot of Auxerre Not to be confused with Hugh (abbot of Saint-Quentin). ( - 886)

his daughter was

Petronilla of Auxerre-Hughes
840–845
BIRTH 0840 • Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
DEATH 0845 • Angers, Departement de Maine-et-Loire, Pays de la Loire, France

she was married to

Tertullus De GâTinais Senechal Of Gatinais
820–921
BIRTH 0820 • Rennes, Departement d'Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
DEATH 0921 • Fontainebleau, Departement de Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France

his reference was from webroots

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?
op=GET&db=john_d_newport&id=I5998

I also got a Millennium File from Ancestry.com saying this

Name: Tertullus Seneschal
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 0820
Spouse: Petronille D'Auxerre
Children: Count Of Anjou Ingeler
Spouse Father: Abbott of Saint Quentin Hughes

So it's a bit confusing when you compare this information with Wikipedia regarding Petronille's father.

I've found this tree too...

https://translate.google.ca/translate?
hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://genealogie.liegeois.free.fr/n31860.htm&prev=search

Petronilla of AUXERRE (SOSA: 9686288753)
Pedigree Chart

Father of Conrad I AUXERRE Old (4843145282) (805-866) (Age in the birth of the child: 30 years)
Mother of Alsace Adelaide (Aélis) (4,843,145,283) (810-882) (Age in the birth of the child: 25 years)
Brothers / Sisters:
WELF Judith (2421572641) (835)
AUXERRE of Conrad II the Younger (4843143174) (840-911)
TOURS Ave (2421572647) (840)
ARGENGAU of Welf I (9686291008) (- 876)
AUXERRE of Hugues said L'Abbé (-? 886 )
AUXERRE of Berthe (Eve) (- 856)
Rudolf of AUXERRE (- 864)
AUXERRE of Emma (?)
birth:
Date: around 835
Name: Petronille
Last name: to AUXERRE
Family Information:
with of GÂTINAIS Tertullus (9686288752) (835):
Note:
Source: JPMasson - AUREJAC
child:
Ingelbert of Anjou I (Ingelger) (4,843,144,376) (850-888)
Next page
These pages were created by Oxy-gen Version 1.38b, 10/07/2011.

and I found this

http://www.mathematical.com/anjoupetronilla825.html

*Petronilla of Auxerre Countess D'Anjou
born Abt 0825 Rhineland, Germany

father:
*Hugo "L'Abbe" of the Franks
born abt 0794 Of, Aachen, Rhineland, Germany
died 7 Jun 0844

mother:
unknown

siblings:
unknown

spouse:
*Tertulle Count D'Anjou
born Abt 0821 Of, Rennes, Anjou, France
married Abt 0844 Anjou, France

children:
*Ingelger I Count of Anjou & Orleans
born Abt 0845 Of, Anjou, France
died Abt 0893 St Martin, Tours, Indre-et-Loire, France
buried St Martin, Tours, Indre-et-Loire, France

Sorry one the links didn't work .. https://translate.google.ca/translate?%20hl=en&sl=fr&u=http...

If it doesn't work again just highlight the link and put it in your google search bar and press search it should work that way.

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Carolingian-181

Hugo "the Bastard, l'Abbé, Archchancellor" de St Quintin formerly Carolingian aka of Aachen
Born 0802 in Aachen, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germanymap
Son of Charlemagne Carolingian and Regina Unknown
Brother of Pepin Carolingian, Charles (Carolingian) Franken, Adelais Carolingian, Hrothrudis Carolingian, Carloman (Carolingian) Italia, Hludowic (Carolingian) of France I, Hlothar Carolingian, Bertha (Carolingian) Ponthieu, Gisela Carolingian, Hildegard (of the Franks) Carolingian, Rothildis Carolingian, Theodrada (of the Franks) Carolingian, Hiltrud (of the Franks) Carolingian, Adaltrud (Aupais) Carolingian, Adaltrud (of the Franks) Carolingian, Drogo (Carolingian) de Luxeil and Theodoric (Carolingian) Franken
[spouse(s) unknown]
[children unknown]
Died 7 Jun 0844 in Utrecht, Utrecht, Netherlandsmap

Judith.. please do not believe what you find on the http://www.wikitree.com site.... It is full of mistakes and mostly built by people like you and myself. Anyone can add anything to it. It doesn't mean they are correct.

"Hugh (abbot of Saint-Quentin)" his Wikipedia page is here (as I have already pointed out )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_(abbot_of_Saint-Quentin).... Hugh (802–844) was the illegitimate son of Charlemagne and his concubine Regina

Hugh (abbot of Saint-Quentin)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hugh (802–844) was the illegitimate son of Charlemagne and his concubine Regina, with whom he had one other son: Bishop Drogo of Metz (801–855). Along with Drogo and his illegitimate half-brother Theodoric, Hugh was tonsured and sent from the palace of Aachen to a monastery in 818 by his father's successor, Louis the Pious, following the revolt of King Bernard of Italy.[1] Hugh rose to become abbot of several abbacies: Saint-Quentin (822/3), Lobbes (836), and Saint-Bertin (836). In 834,[1] he was made imperial archchancellor by his half-brother.[2]

On Louis's death in 840, his sons began to fight over the inheritance. In 841, Hugh sided with his nephew Charles the Bald against Louis and Lothair.[3] In 842, Charles spent Christmas with Hugh at Saint-Quentin on his eastern frontier.[4] Hugh's interventions probably secured Saint-Quentin for Charles's kingdom in the division that came with the Treaty of Verdun (843).[5]

Hugh was part of the small army which, on its way south to join Charles at Toulouse, was ambushed by Pippin II in the Angoumois on 14 June 844. Hugh was killed by a lance, and according to the anonymous verse lament composed about his death—called the Rhythmus de obitu Hugonis abbatis or Planctus Ugoni abbatis[6]—Charles wept over his body.[7][8]

Hugh is sometimes confused with Hugh the Abbot, resulting in the erroneous claim that he had a daughter, Petronilla, who married Tertullus of Anjou, the semi-legendary father of Ingelger, first count of Anjou. The late accounts of the Angevin origins actually make Petronilla a kinswoman of Hugh the Abbot, not of Charlemagne's son.

Sources
MacLean, Simon. Kingship and Politics in the Late Ninth Century: Charles the Fat and the end of the Carolingian Empire. Cambridge University Press: 2003.

there are two "Hugh the Abbot"

Hugh the Abbot
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Hugh (abbot of Saint-Quentin).
Hugh the Abbot (died 12 May 886) was a member of the Welf family, a son of Conrad I of Auxerre and Adelaide. After his father's death, his mother apparently married Robert the Strong, the margrave of Neustria. On Robert's death in 866, Hugh became the regent and guardian for Robert's sons, Odo and Robert.

Hugh entered the monastery and rose to become abbot of Saint-Germain d'Auxerre. Despite his vows, he was no peaceful, contemplative monk but the epitome of the warrior-monk of his age. King Charles the Bald sent him on a military expedition to the Nivernais. One can see in this the clerical tendency to support the reigning dynasty against the great vassals. Hugh welcomed Charles when the king had to flee during an 858 invasion of Louis the German, when his vassals refused him aid and rebelled under Robert the Strong. When Robert regained favour, Hugh was exiled to Lotharingia, where he became archbishop of Cologne (864). He was called back to France soon, however.

In 866, upon Robert's death, Hugh received all the former's abbacies, including Noirmoutiers and Saint-Martin de Tours, counties, including Tours, and the margraviate between the Seine and the Loire (Neustria). The only lands the sons of Robert inherited were in Beauce and Touraine. Despite being Robert's during his life, after his death Hugh became the guardian of Robert's children. Hugh was endued with great political sense and fought the Vikings vigorously. He was the archchaplain of the royal court and one of the chief ministers of the joint-kings Louis III and Carloman. Hugh tried to maintain the alliance of the related Carolingian monarchs against the Vikings. He united all the Carolingian kingdoms against the usurper Boso of Provence. He supported Charles the Fat on his succession to West Francia in 884, but he died before he could lend aid to the defence of Paris during the siege of 885–86.

this is what I have on my Ancestry tree

Petronilla of Auxerre-Hughes
840–845
BIRTH 0840 • Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
DEATH 0845 • Angers, Departement de Maine-et-Loire, Pays de la Loire, France

If you read both wiki links carefully it clearly states

"Hugh the abbot" was "abbot of Saint-Germain d'Auxerre"

were as the other Hugh the abbot

"Hugh (abbot of Saint-Quentin)" was just that "abbot of Saint-Quentin" and not abbot of abbot of " Saint-Germain d'Auxerre" So I cant see how Hugh the abbot of Saint Quentin can be Petronilla of Auxerre father. The other Hugh has to be her father. They both have the last name "of Auxerre"

ALso do not believe all you see on Ancestry.com!

nor on familysearch.org.

The only thing one can fully believe is dull documentation - with the actual images to back it up and that is sometimes very hard to find during this time period

nor can one trust on familysearch.org.; MyHertiage and other vast online sites.

The only thing one can fully believe is full documentation - with the actual sources and images of that time period to back it up and that is sometimes very hard to find during this time period all other is educated guesses by the scholars or non-scholars; genealogists etc.

The later link which again is https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http:/...

was a translattion of

histoire de l'Europe et de la Mediterranee

http://www.histoireeurope.fr/RechercheLocution.php

it does not seem to be wiki connected the tranlation feature popped up and I was kind enought o just provided the link to her page in English - here is the link I think to the beginning of the site http://www.histoireeurope.fr/RechercheLocution.php it all in a forgiegn language good luck!

Images for histoire de l'Europe et de la Mediterranee Images for histoire de l'Europe et de la Mediterranee

@Sharon Doubell here is another suplerative/double profiles - I just got this trying to compare my offline file with GENI

Petronilla of Burgundy
Petronelle d'Auxerre d'Anjou
Gender: Female
Birth: estimated between 807 and 849
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Hugo, Archchancellor of the Empire
Mother of Ingelger, count of Anjou
Half sister of Petronelle de Gâtinais (D'auxerre)
Added by: Nate Swanson on May 26, 2016
Managed by: Nate Swanson

Also not that the
@ttps://mother of Petronilla
Regina
Gender: Female
Birth: after 795
Germany
Death: before 879
Immediate Family:
Wife of Hugo, Archchancellor of the Empire
Mother of Petronelle de Gâtinais (D'auxerre)
Added by: Randall F Raniere on July 27, 2013
Managed by: Randall F Raniere and Bailey Nicole Triplett

was note added at the same time as the profile for profile of Hugo, Archchancellor of the Empire and Regina (the above data is for the Regina attached t Hugo at it is attached some 6 years later with NO DOCUMENTATION

I have found this possible dup of Petronella but it seems a bit dubious as she is being called abbot! (something got lost in translation)
Petronilla of Burgundy

Yeah I think that is one of the 3-4 branches that have been added to GENI to get around the Mastered and locked down profiles :-( and they alter the information within just enough so they can not be merged easily and create a bucketful of confusion - I am constantly running into them as I try to make my offline file match what is on GENI and I am starting new downloads and of course GENI is also nice enough :-( to also include all these on top to the mastered profiles

Judith I agree with "Also do not believe all you see on Ancestry.com! ".

Being a member for a few years now, I do not trust other trees I get as hints... I research everyone I add myself one by one and I have at present 32531 profiles . I am only half done my tree

I've added birth, death and marriage certificates from "wiewaswei" and a few other Dutch sites. Here on Geni I have a 5th cousin who works for the Leeuwarden Historical Society in the Netherlands . He can find actual documentation on anyone from the Netherlands and other countries. But around the 1500's I have to rely on other sources because his tree doesn't go that far on Geni.

My connection to Petronilla starts with Robert II van der Marck-Arenberg Count
1506–1536
BIRTH MAY 30 1506 • Neufchateau, Luxembourgmain
DEATH 30 MAR 1536
he was my 13th great-grandfather

What I find on Geni for his ancestors isn't matching up with what I've found on Wikipedia and other sources. So needles to say Geni IS NOT my main family tree site. Nothing against others here on Geni and there finding but I would rather trust in my own findings.

Showing all 21 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion