Francois du Toit, SV/PROG - Baptismal Date

I have no other info regarding the baptism of SF du Toit. I must admit, I have not gone into much research in this regard, as I do not think I can prove otherwise.
Sorry if I'm not of much help.

Thanks for weighing in, though, cousin. :-)

HI all,
I will try and give all South African, early days and later info, but as I am working from books - prefer over CD's etc. - I have to type it over.

It is all in Afrikaans though.
1. Entry in Die Groot Afrikaanse Familie Naamboek. C PAMA. page 106.
DU TOIT
Betekenis: Van die dak, maar die betekenis het so uitgebrei dat dit late huis en opstal insluit.
STANMVADER: Francois DU TOIT, van RYSSEL ( in Frans: LILLE) in Frans-Vallndere. Daar gedoop op 15/91664; seun van Pierre DU TOUT en Marie ROUSEL(le). Kom in 1690 hier aan; burger in Drakenstein (Paarl), oorlede 1734.
Trou 12/2/1690 met Susanna SEUGNET van Saint Onge of SAINTORE (Frankryk). 9 Kinders.
VBan hierdie egpaar stam die Suid Afrikaanse DU TOIT's af. Francois se broer, GUILLAUME het ook as vlugteling na die KAAP gekom en is op 16/5/1688 getroud met SARA COCHET van OOST-SOUBURGH op WALCHEREN, SELAND (NEDERLAND). Weduwee van PIETER DE KLERK. Hulle het net drie DOGTERS.

Hope this helps a bit. That definately gives his parents as PIERRE DU TOIT and MARIE ROUSEL

I also have the HUGENOTE GEDENKBOEK 1688-1988 but the info is the same.

No other eveidence to this is available and I do think he should be attached to these parents.
Judi

So this wife and is also incorrect. Or is there another SV that I don't see in these books?

J

Hugenote Gedenkboek page 160 states:
Stamvadder FRANCOIS DU TOIT> (?-1734)
Plek van herkoms: LILLE (FLANDRE)
Datum van aankoms: 1686
Skip: VRIJHEIT
Gevestif te: KLEINBOSCH, DALJOSAFAT
Getroud met: 12 Februarie 1690, Susanna SEUGNET van SAINTOGE
Kinders: 4 seuns en 4 dogters.

DU TOIT:
GUILLAUME, broer van FRANCOIS DU TOIT.
Plek van Herkoms: LILLE(FLANDRE)
Datum van aankoms: 1686
Skip: VRIJHEIT
Gevestig te: Aan"t PAD, STELLENBOSCH.
Getroud met: 16 Mei 1688, SARA COCHET.
Kinders: Drie dogters.

No other DU TOIT Prog.

Judi

Does Pama have Sources that link the Frenchman to the SA settler?

Boucher's "However, it must be added that another Francois Dut(h)oit was christened in the church of Saint-Maurice in Lille on April 5, 1665" *Boucher.M (1981). French speakers at the Cape: The European Background. Pretoria, UNISA. CHAPTER NINE Cape settlers V: from Flanders to Alsace on the turbulent frontier pp261-2

suggests that we have no reasonable basis to assume the SA progenitor isn't this man – or another Francois duToit whose Huguenot christening is unrecorded / lost.

While, Pierre du Toit and Marie Rouselle may have been his parents, there seems no evidence to prove this:

From the profile Overview:
“What we can say with some certainty is that Pierre Du Toit and family seem to have settled in Leyden (Leiden) for some time. There was a significant and prosperous Protestant community at Leyden, and amongst them were Du Toits who had been there since at least 1605. Whether these Du Toits were relatives of Pierre Du Toit has not been possible to establish with certainty.” Provided by Kevin Oram

A coincidence of names with baptisms in the area is not sufficient evidence, especially as we have at least two.

Two of the well-respected external sites used often by Geni
http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g7/p7220.htm#c7220.3
and
http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/dutoit/I049.html
also finds no Sources to prove parentage.

Please see the Genealogical Proof Standard Project: https://www.geni.com/projects/Workshop-Using-the-Genealogical-Proof...

Sharon I still do find that the SV is the child that are stated in all other SA books/CD's, genealogical resources. I am OK with onther person by these names, but also don't think that it is fair for us to take away relationships.

Marais for instance - we have Charles M and his wife, Catherine Tabourdeaux. That is the well known one.

But there is alsoa very short line of another Charles Marais as "a" but Parents unknown. People have made the mistake to add them as our line, but they are totally different. When I have time I will look for that source again. Haven't worked on that information for many years.
Judi

Judi, you do need to provide genealogically valid reasons for the relationships.

cf Charles Marais, SV/PROG Judi, are you saying we have no proof of his parents either?

Sharon no we do have proof of the real one, Charles Marais. I also bought a proof(source) of the marriage certificate of Charles and Catharine that ws here years ago. I still have it somewhere. It was signed in the house of Chatharine's parent with the parents as witnesses.

Also about two back on both parents.

On an old web "werf" years ago, as well as on other well known, there are another Charles Marais with another wife. That is the short line, only about to 'C". There are parents unknown.

When I have time I willl look in my paper filing system and look bring it under attention here.

Stay well.

Judi

I agree 100% that only hard core sources of Genealogical value is real proof.

I.e. Not personal web sites - that is human to make a mistake.
Baptisms, marraiges, deaths, will's etc. Ja for sure.

I also feel that Richard B is very, very good. I work with him on a personal basis through eGGSA, Genesis, eGGSA grave project, etc.

Also Delia's, but in all cases I don't think we should just take that. We should in all cases give credit, but also seek more information via Archives.

My feeling.

J

Judi, this is the point. Nobody has found any genealogically valid link for the parental relationship.

Dear All

With apologies for not engaging sooner....I have been extremely busy with other (income earning!) work.

I have relied upon the all the reputable and available SA resources for the Du Toit link to Lille and thence to Abraham/Abram Dut Toit, and have done some of my own research on Lille records (remotely and online it has to be said) to verify the line. I suspect the link to Lille is very sound, as it is to one of two Francois Du Toits - identified in the discussion above,

I have been cautious about asserting certain/determined links to either of the Lille Du Toits for obvious reasons (as you will see from what is quoted from my entry in the email chain below), but agree entirely with Sharon (quoting Boucher). The balance of probabilities (based on credible sources both in SA and Lille) is that the line goes back through Pierre to Abraham.

I intend to instruct Lille genealogists to investigate further to confirm or disprove this, but as you will appreciate this requires both time and money - not to mention overcoming the language barrier. I do not speak French to the level required to write to a Lille researcher, and there are limits to what I am able to spend. I hope to be able to instruct later this year and am in the process of identifying a reliable and reputable researcher in Lille - another difficult task.

May I ask that in the meantime, the line as I have put it up on Geni be retained - with strict caveats from moderators. It is extremely unhelpful to go online as I did today to find two or three generations "missing", along with all the work I have done on them to date.

If of course I am missing something in the way in which I use the Geni site, and I can in fact access the entries I previously made, I'd be most grateful for guidance as to how to do so.

Best regards

Kevin

Kevin - are you referring to Francois? He is linked to this Discussion. (cf Francois du Toit, SV/PROG)

What we can do is create a Du Toit Family Research project, and link all the profiles there, as well as keep your - and everyone's research on it. If you get more duTOit researchers to join, we might, in time, find the money or DNA results to solve it for certain.

eg Du Plessis Family Research: https://www.geni.com/projects/du-Plessis-Genealogy-of-SA/10778
eg Doubell https://www.geni.com/projects/Doubell-Genealogy-of-South-Africa/5662

cf Pierre du Toit

Please all join the duToit Family Research Project: https://www.geni.com/projects/du-Toit-Genealogy-of-SA/47484

Kevin says: I will do so and keep all informed of results of research in Lille as and when I get that done.

In the last 18 months I have spent rather a lot (in Sterling terms) on research into the genealogies of my 8 g-grandparents in SA, UK, NZ and Australia. ...

The Lille Du Toits are well researched by SA experts as you know - what does not seem to have been done is extensive research in Lille (if it has, I haven't been able to find it online). I can tell you the Du Toits are a very old Lille family. There is a lease in the Lille Archives dated to around 1435 naming a Du Toit. This lease is referenced (you can access the Lille archive online), but regrettably I have not been able to see an image of the lease.

While I doubt that the Du Toit above can be shown to be an ancestor, the fact that the name is recorded that early lends support to the excellent SA research pointing to Lille as the origin of "our" SA Du Toits. The link to the Du Toits of Moudon is apparently now conclusively proven to be wrong - at least for the brothers who arrived in SA in 1686 on the Vrijheit.

Over the summer I hope to have more from Lille.

Best regards

Kevin

C Pama was written a long time ago, and presumably used reliable sources.

Just my two cents worth - does anybody perhaps know if the baptism of Francois' brother Guillaume has been located> That should confirm the parents as well. We know the two brothers came to SA together?