Very interesting read, as I am also connected to this Harris line.
I reviewed the FTDNA Harris Project. For those interested, you can find it here.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/harris-ydna?iframe=yresults
I see the conflict you describe.
There are two separate Haplogroups emerging and only one can be right. The unfortunate pattern I am also seeing in this group is, in the M269 group you will see most of the R-M269 listed in red. To further bypass this conflict and find who is the true Robert Harris group we need more direct Y DNA male descendants to test further with more markers. We must find common SNPs. The red listing shows this is not their confirmed final haplogroup and more testing is needed.
Quote: "managers of Robert Harris, of "The Forks",
The entire ancestry of this Robert Harris proposed by William Deyo was published by James Phil Harris in an Article he published as a Message entered on the RootsWeb Harris-VA-L Mailing List on May 1,2001. Phil has recently refuted all of this lineage of Robert Harris except that he could be the son of the William Harris of Jamestown, but all of the rest is unproven and mostly proven wrong by DNA that was not available in 2001 when he wrote the article. At that time Phil did not even accept Mary Claiborne Rice as the wife of this Robert Harris, but has changed his beliefs since then.
Sincerely,
Tom King"
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Quote:"I know his ancestry is still unproven as the 2001 lineage for him posted by J Phil Harris and hijacked by the President of the Virginia Genealogy Society who published it in one of his Pamunkey Indian books,,has now completely refuted that lineage as it merges into the I-M253 Haplo Group of both Capt Thomas Harris of Jamestown and that of Sir William Harris d1616."
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This is a bold, yet, possibly true statement. As we genealogist continue to investigate and further these lines, we begin to question these peoples ideas and theories that no one has questioned or resisted before. They have established what they feel is Patawomeck Indian Tribe. Now we search to find our Pamunkey relatives and suddenly the door becomes shut in our face!
This was a similar experience I had with Bill Deyo. I first emailed the Tribe regarding my Dabney line. I received a proper email statement of his views and opinions regarding the Dabney connection to the tribe. I then added my mother to Bill Deyo's emails. My mother being very good with genealogy research, also a teacher in the LDS genealogy program. I forwarded Bill all my family trees and a 13 generation report. Most of the links I sent him were tree paths to people he had listed in his pamphlet and books. Showing my families further affiliation to the tribe.
http://patawomeckindiantribeofvirginia.org/ct-menu-item-10
I first received a strange email stating this: "My government computer has denied me access to those links. I will have to forward your e-mail to my home computer to see if I can view them there.
Bill"
I then sent him my family research to his personal email.
things became distant after I listed all the family names we were connected to, including family names listed on their tribal website?
he wrote back with a vague response: "Dear Dr. Ibrahim,
I looked over your 13 generations. I am not familiar with any other Indian links in those names. There may be some, but I am just not familiar with them. I do not see any Patawomeck connections. I do see many names of families that we have in common, however: Harris, Dabney, Overton, Waters, Holbrook, Hobart, Tripp, Anthony, Smiton, Brownell, Courtney, Chandler, Abbott, Morgan, and others.
Bill Deyo"
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This was sent from a entirely different email address?
So I have received a email from Bill coming from 3 different places.
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But earlier, he mentioned we were connected to the same Dabney line so my family last names should be the same as his?
Quote: " I am the Patawomeck Tribal Historian, I am descended from Cornelius Dabney, as well. He was first married to an English lady named, Eedith, whom some believe was the daughter of Gov. Francis Morrison. Eedith had also been previously married to a Mr. Anderson in England and had a son by him. Cornelius' first wife died while he was the personal interpreter to Cockacoeske, Queen of Pamunkey. Due to his close relationship to Cockacoeske, it would have been the reasonable thing to do on the part of the Queen to present him with a Pamunkey wife from her own family. There is no proof of that, but knowing the ways of our forebears, it would have been most likely. Cockacoeske's husband was the late Chief Totopotomoi, who died in battle in 1656. It would have been most likely that she would have chosen one of her daughters by Totopotomoi as a wife for Cornelius Dabney. We only know that Cornelius' second wife was named Susanna and that, after his death, she remarried to a Mr. Anderson. Her son, Cornelius, was my ancestor. I have heard over the years that several Dabney descendants have the tradition of Indian blood in the family, and I have seen old photographs in which the Indian facial features are very evident.
I descend from William Dabney, the son of John Dabney and Anna Harris, and the grandson of Cornelius Dabney, who was Susanna's son. William Dabney lived in Albemarle County, VA. ."
In conclusion, I was not looking for tribal enrollment to their tribe, I simply wanted confirmation of my family tree connecting to his line and names listed within their tribe website page. I was going to ask for an official letter from the tribe stating my confirmed family tree connection.
After attaching my mother and giving him my 13 generation report, he went from us being connected to the same Dabney line to your family names do not look familiar?
Quote:"I do not see any Patawomeck connections. I do see many names of families that we have in common, however: Harris, Dabney, Overton, Waters, Holbrook, Hobart, Tripp, Anthony, Smiton, Brownell, Courtney, Chandler, Abbott, Morgan, and others."
WHAT?
Your Tribal Store lists these family names:
1. A Brief Outline of Recorded History of the Patawomeck Indian Tribe. Contains some history back to 1300 A.D. through the great massacre of the tribe by the English in 1666. Patawomeck survivors and some of their descendants are discussed. Patawomeck descendants of Stafford/King George Co. represented by the families of Newton, Jett, Sullivan, Hudson, Roberson, Groves, Butler, Fines, Green, etc., are pictured in photos, some as early as the 1850s. $15.99
A larger version of this booklet, containing additional manuscripts of documentation by the current tribal historian, William L. Deyo, in regard to some of the lines of descent, is available at $24.99
2. The Monteith Family and the Potomac Indians. Royal ancestry of Thomas Monteith (1694-1747) of Scotland and Virginia and info on some of his descendants of Potomac/Patawomeck Indian blood & allied families. Some important inclusions are: (1) true ancestry of the Newtons of Stafford Co., (2) notes on Hansbrough family of Salubria & identification of Indian Pete Hansbrough, (3) identification of Indian John Redman of Loudoun Co., (4) names & distribution of some Nanzattico Indian children among certain families in 1705, (5) photos & portraits (including Scottish color portraits of the parents of Thomas Monteith), and info touching on many other Stafford & King George Co. families such as Anderson, Ashton, Axton, Bowen, Bryan(t), Butler, Cox, Curtis, Doniphan, Elkins, Finnall, Foley, Griffin/Griffith, Grigsby, Harrison, Hudson, Jones, Kenney, Meese, Martin, Owens, Quarles, Roberson, Rogers, Rowley, Waddington, Waugh, Watts, West, Williams, etc. ..$24.99
3. The Family and Ancestry of William Dabney (ca 1743-1779) of Virginia and His Two Wives, Jane Quarles and Anna Harris. A documented Virginia Dabney family with an analysis of the English connections of the families of Dabney, Harris, Overton, Waters, Peake, Herbert, Mallory, Quarles, Millett, and others. Royal ancestries of the families of Dabney, Harris, Overton, Mallory, and Quarles are given. Never before published ancestry of the English Overton family is provided, as well as the answer to the mystery of the Harris/Claiborne connection. Contains illustrations/photos (some color) of funeral monuments, portraits, churches, etc. ..$15.99
4. King George County, Virginia, 1800 Census.
Lost 1800 Census has been discovered and is now available (softbound). ..$18.95
5. Porch Family, the Forgotten Legacy of White Oak, Stafford County, Virginia. Descendants of Richard Porch (16??-1750), the Grandfather of White Oak, including families of Bates, Berry, Brown, Burton, Chinn, Cox, Curtis, Fines, Jett, Kitchen, Limerick, McGuire, Payne, Roberson, Rollow, Sullivan, etc. ...$15.99
6. The Sullivan Family of Stafford County, Virginia. The family and some of the descendants of Darby Sullivan (1722-1800) of King George/Stafford Co., containing notes on his probable parents and grandparents and important discoveries on the ancestry of his wife, Ann Fugate, daughter of Josias Fugate. Connections to the Sullivans of Spotsylvania, Orange, & Albemarle Counties, with notes on the connection of the wife of Francis Sullivan of Spotsylvania to the family of Maj. William Newton. $14.99
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Regarding Tom Kings statement and the DNA conflict, we can "weed out" any lies or fake claims being made through further Y DNA found SNPs, or overlapping segments showing who is truly connected.
If there are some fakes hijacking the tribe and history, it will be put to test in the near future. More DNA testing must be done.
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