Elen ferch Eudaf Hen - Sources?

Maybe use a source other than Medlands?

To start:

References
(in Greek) Ἡ Ἁγία Ἑλένη ἡ Πριγκίπισσα. 22 Μαΐου. ΜΕΓΑΣ ΣΥΝΑΞΑΡΙΣΤΗΣ.
King Arthur and the Goddess of the Land: The Divine Feminine in the Mabinogion by Caitlin Matthews
Sources
Morris, Lewis; Evans, Daniel Silvan (1878). Celtic Remains. J. Parker. p. 159. LCCN 10-13761. OCLC 12825229. OCLC 34225220. Google Book Search. Retrieved on January 25, 2009. (She is listed as ELEN verch Eudaf.)
Farmer, David Hugh (1997). The Oxford Dictionary of Saints (4th ed). Oxford [u.a.]: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-280058-2. ISBN 978-0-19-280058-9. LCCN 97-12837 OCLC 36597843 (She is listed as Helen of Caernarvon.)
Pennick, Nigel (1997). The Celtic Saints: An Illustrated and Authoritative Guide to These Extraordinary Men and Women. New York: Sterling Pub.; London: Thorsons. ISBN 0-7225-3481-7. ISBN 0-8069-9600-5. ISBN 978-0-7225-3481-6. ISBN 978-0-8069-9600-4. LCCN 96-39794. OCLC 35986219. OCLC 36791984. OCLC 59667225.
External links
Celtnet: Nemeton: Celtic Gods: The Cymric Heroine, Elen Lluyddog (Helen of the Hosts)
Caer Feddwyd: Elen[permanent dead link]
[hide] v t e
Celtic mythology series
Welsh mythology
Texts and tales
Four Branches of the Mabinogi
Pwyll Pendefig Dyfed Branwen ferch Llŷr Manawydan fab Llŷr Math fab Mathonwy
Arthurian
Culhwch and Olwen Preiddeu Annwfn Pa gur Owain, or the Lady of the Fountain Geraint and Enid Peredur son of Efrawg The Dream of Rhonabwy Geraint son of Erbin
Other
Taliesin Cad Goddeu Welsh Triads The Dream of Macsen Wledig Englynion y Beddau Giant tales Lludd and Llefelys
Characters
Afaon fab Taliesin Amaethon Arawn Arianrhod Arthur Afallach Beli Mawr Bleiddwn Blodeuwedd Bedwyr Bendigeidfran Branwen Cai Caradog ap Bran Caswallawn Ceridwen Cigfa Creiddylad Culhwch Cyhyraeth Cyledr Wyllt Cymidei Cymeinfoll Cynon Dôn Drudwas Dylan ail Don Dywel fab Erbin Edern ap Nudd Efnysien Elen Elffin ap Gwyddno Eliwlod Eufydd Euroswydd Geraint Gilfaethwy Glewlwyd Gafaelfawr Goewin Gofannon Goreu fab Custennin Gronw Pebr Gwawl Gwern Gwrhyr Gwyddno Garanhir Gwydion Gwyn ap Nudd Gwythyr Gwalchmei Hafgan Hefeydd Hueil mab Caw Hychddwn Hyddwn Iddog ap Mynio Idris Llefelys Lleu Llŷr Lludd Llwyd Mabon Madoc ap Uthyr Macsen Wledig Mallt-y-Nos Manawydan Math Matholwch Menw Modron Morfydd Morfran Nisien Olwen Penarddun Penpingion Peredur Pryderi Pwyll Rhiannon Saint Cyllin Saint Eigen Sanddef Seithenyn Taliesin Tegid Foel Teyrnon Ysbaddaden
Animals and
creatures
Adar Llwch Gwin Adar Rhiannon Afanc Cavall (Cafall, Cabal) Ceffyl Dŵr Cewri Coblynau Coraniaid Cŵn Annwn Cyhyraeth Dreigiau Gwyllgi Gwyllion Llamhigyn y Dŵr Morgens Plentyn Newid Pwca Twrch Trwyth Tylwyth Teg
Locations
Annwn Cornwall (Celliwig) Caer Sidi Cantre'r Gwaelod Dyfed (Arberth, Gwales) Gwynedd (Aberffraw, Arfon, Ardudwy, Caer Dathyl) Ireland London (Ludgate)
Miscellaneous
Excalibur (Caledfwlch) Cauldron of rebirth Llech Ronw Thirteen Treasures of the Island of Britain

https://books.google.com/books?id=QnDtohOe8-QC&pg=PA134&lpg...

The British Chronicles, Volume 1
By David Hughes

https://books.google.com/books?id=G7HGDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT142&lpg...

The Cult of St Ursula and the 11,000 Virgins
edited by Professor Jane Cartwright

https://books.google.com/books?id=K2euBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA344&lpg...

Trioedd Ynys Prydein: The Triads of the Island of Britain
edited by Rachel Bromwich

https://books.google.com/books?id=dD2GDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA72&lpg=...

King Arthur: The Mystery Unravelled
By Chris Barber

My first post was wikipedia:

http://www.wiki-zero.net/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3...

Hope this is helpful.

Which of that are you putting forward as a primary or secondary source?

Ahh - crossposted. So this Mabinogion and Welsh mythology.

Why do you not research and read them curator? Read instead of dissecting tree perhaps (?) and only using Medlands (which is not a primary). You asked for sources, there are many. I have listed to help. There are sources out there obviously. It is easy with the internet today to do the research, gleamed the sources.

Best to keep history and the big tree intact, IMO.

Really Jacqueli. Your comments are ugly.

Anne Brannen, can you come and take a look and tell me where this line becomes mythological?

I do note that I omitted my source info when I put this in. Merely an oversight which I have corrected. The information comes from one of Darrell Wolcott's papers. The new notation now reflects:

Please see Darrell Wolcott: Constans I and His A.D. 343 Visit to Britain; http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id131.html. (Steven Ferry, May2, 2018.)

I also added this as well:

Please see Darrell Wolcott; Anwn Dynod ap Maxen Wledig; http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id21.html. (Steven Ferry, May 2, 2018.)

I did not mean for my comments to be 'ugly', what I find sad is the dissecting of the historical tree and postings that there are no sources for historical profiles, when there are - simply as that - Medlands may be a favorite source of many, but it is incomplete and biased.. I am trying to help. What I get from some of you curators are personal attacks, every time, I try to help. As with MacBeth, some legends have intertwined with reality in history. This does not eliminate the facts, which many (primary sources) as you know, were destroyed in wars. And when evidence is presented to some of you curators, it is disregarded, or decided that they are not relevant to the opinions of the curators and ignored. This is all I am saying - that the tribal consensus often times rules here instead of what some users may present because of the prejudice. And I am one of the users that have had the prejudice often times directed at the evidence presented.

Sorry if I offended you. But even curators can be wrong. We are ALL volunteers here on Geni, and just trying to help each other.

No need to continue in opinions (personal attacks) with me okay? Let's just get the sources needed for the profiles. Period.

It does appear that this profile might be merged with Elen Luyddog, but the dates are a problem. Let's see what Anne Brannen comes up with. She is also familiar with Wolcott's work.

Thanks for adding those, Steven Mitchell Ferry. We're trying to create projects for the mythological lines, and this profile's line looks like it becomes one of them. Anne has a number of Welsh projects, so let's wait for her to come and figure it out with you.

Cadair is down at the moment, so I can't use Bartrum till it's up again. (Someday I hope I get to find out why a university server goes down so often.)

If it's ok, let's not touch anything till I can check that out, is that ok?

Fine with me.

Yes, leaving it with you guys.

Sharon Doubell and Steven Mitchell Ferry -- one of the things I've been doing, besides labeling the Arthurian profiles according to which text they come from, is labeling the Mabinogion profiles. What happens in the Welsh Genealogies is that actual humans are, as they are throughout European medieval genealogies, connected to the gods. ONE of the main sources is the Mabinogion, though not the only one.

But we do have discussions going about who is real and who isn't.

Here's one I've already done -- Beli Mawr "The Great", {Fictitious, Mabinogion}

Only one of his children isn't mythological -- we don't actually know who the parents of Caswallan were. But he was revered, which is why he's attached to the sun god as his father. And why at the moment the sun god is my 50th grandfather. Oh, I shall miss him! But I will know in my heart that he's there.

The others I can work with; I just got to this piece of the tree, though, and it would be SO lovely if I could work things out before we started cutting.

Anyway.

We can detach the Mabinogion deities from their humans descendants. But as with Odin's descendants, it's not always easy.

No need to start cutting. Was going down the line to Odin and checking for sourcing. Up to you now. Please add me to the Mabinogion project. Love :-)

Yeah, the Welsh tree is so damn delicate. All the rest of the medieval tree, much more robust. The Welsh tree, one wrong merge or wrong cut, and it's days to fix. Yeah.

Steven Mitchell Ferry -- hello!

What's going on is that the new jet (that's medieval speak for the latest fashion) is that we (we being a whole bunch of the curators) are working on detaching all non-human entities from the World Tree. Odin is now in a separate tree, for instance.

So that's what this was all about.

I know that Wolcott argues for the actual existence of some of the dubious people -- so your remembrance of where to go for those discussions will be very helpful.

Ooooh! Ooooh!

So, by definition, none of us should be connected to any of the profiles that are in this project --

https://www.geni.com/projects/Mabinogion/45903

because they were not real.

Lol.

So that's my place to help in all this -- I can track down where it is that any of these profiles are connected to the World Tree.

:-)

This is painful to read. Caitlin Mathews and David Hughes are not academic sources. Many of the others are just survey quality -- no meaningful engagement with primary sources. Let's see if we can separate the wheat from the chaff.

Wolcott, Bartrum. Anyone else?

This from Wolcott, in "Beli Mawr and Llyr Llediath",

"A number of the Welsh royal families trace their ancestry to the man called Beli Mawr, whose pedigrees make him descend from the legendary Brutus of Troy.[1] We doubt his birth-name was Beli (BAY-lee), this being one of the major Celtic gods, the God of the Sun. But a real man of some name spawned the ensuing families, so we shall call him Beli Mawr for lack of sources citing his birth name. He should not be confused with the fictional Beli and wife, Don, found in Welsh mythology[2]."

So, yes, the real gets merged with the fictional.

Well, Steven Mitchell Ferry and I use Wolcott and Bartrum. And not that other stuff.

But really, there isn't actually anything else, other than the actual Mabinogion text, and some journal articles concerning bits of the tree.

I spend a lot of time on this, and haven't seen anything else that's dealing with the primary sources and wrassling them convincingly. Even if you go someplace like Lewys Dwnn's giant collection of Welsh genealogies, what you have is all the various genealogies, presented as they are, with no attempt to make them make sense where they contradict each other or leave things out. And certainly no attempt to separate gods from men.

Bartrum gives the lines in the most reliable way, though he has his wells of blackness. Nor does he separate gods from men, though he causes the various genealogies to jive as much as possible. Wolcott does spend some time on that.

Steven, since we don't know the name of whatever human ended up in the genealogies as Beli Mawr -- assuming that Wolcott is right and there WAS one human that fills that slot -- I'm detaching Beli Mawr from the humans. Wolcott calls him Beli. But he doesn't' know his name. And we don't, either.

If indeed, as I say, he really was there.

Anyway, Justin, if I do run across actual solid sources of meaningful engagement with primary sources -- other than our heroes Bartrum and Wolcott -- I will definitely link to them. And tell you.

That's always been my impression. Just fishing ;)

Ok.

I just want to say publicly so that it's not a secret -- because one of my main sanity bastions tells me that I am as sick as my secrets -- that every time I look one of these Mabinogion people up, there is a part of me that totally wants to argue for their existence.

Just looked up Blodeuwedd, and immediately thought, hey! My 50th grandmother could totally be an owl made out of flowers! I've got textual evidence!

And I'm not going to argue that.

Just thought you should know.

Completely understand.

I have Caitlin Matthews' Goddess of the Land sitting on my bed table right now for an upteenth re-reading, and I'm currently working through the meditations in her husband's book Healing the Wounded King.

That's all good stuff, but my own sanity requires that I keep my research firmly separate from other entertainments. I had a twinge when I lost Aeneas and Zeus as my direct male line ancestors but I'm please with the result.

I have to admit that I'm having increasing tendencies to wash my hands :-) but I like to think that Hugin and Munin will fly free across both trees and bring the news back to Odin in his Valhalla project. He will worry about Munin more, but we'll keep her memories safe :-)