Niall of the Nine Hostages, King of the Connachta - Historical and legendary profiles in the Kings of Ireland line -- where to cut?

Quick and dirty links to the start of information on Niall and the lines of Irish kings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the_Nine_Hostages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Kings_of_Ireland

I think cutting tree off at Niall and even listing him as "legendary" is a good compromise. I always thought it was strange they said he had dna matches today- but nothing to compare that dna with???? Carry on- doing a good thing here!!!

I like this idea. There is probably no perfect place to cut historical from legendary, but cutting at Niall makes intuitive sense. He's the one everyone knows.

I’m a supporter of evidence. If it exsists to support the exsistance of a particular person, then let them stay. One piece of evidence is difficult to use. Verifiable evidence, more than one piece, or something that can be attested to from outside sources, is preferable. I think you are on the right track.

There is a foundational problem with the evidence that doesn't exist in the Welsh lines where I usually hang out.

As in the Welsh, the ancient lines come from medieval genealogies going back into legendary figures.

But in the case of the Irish lines, John O'Hart compiled an EXTREMELY influential work, wherein he added all of the medieval genealogies together. It's like Peter Bartrum's work with the Welsh, except that O'Hart didn't give his sources, so you can't track him back. Also he seems to have invented things. Also, he had an agenda, which Bartrum didn't have -- Bartrum, who wasn't Welsh, was working with the Welsh Genealogies as an interesting puzzle. O'Hart was working with the Irish genealogies as Proof of Ancient Lines of Irish Racial Purity.

So, as a scholar, I find O'Hart's work highly problematic.

But it's copied over and over and over, and it's adored.

So, there's LOTS of evidence for all of this. But it's vexed and problematic evidence.

Laura Kaufman -- if we are going to list Niall as legendary, then he should not be attached to the World Tree.

So we need to decide if we think he is legendary or not.

And if we think he is not, we need to detach him from the World Tree.

The argument for "everyone's descended from Niall" was roughly that M222 was spread widely across Ireland and Scotland, and therefore had to be from someone with many descendants, such as a high king active in the same areas - of which there happened to be a nice candidate, namely Niall.
So the argument is quite circular, and was proved wrong by better age estimates for M222.

Me, I'm with practical. If we find it most practical to use John O'Hart as a basis and then chop his tree up (with appropriate commentary) whenever we catch him inventing stuff, that works for me; if we want to say "we only believe John O'Hart whenever he's corroborated by at least 1 more piece of evidence", that is a consistent position too (albeit one that requires us to do much more surgery to our present tree than the other solution).

Anyway, I've seen no argument for keeping anyone before Niall attached to the human tree.

The problem, Harald Tveit Alvestrand, with chopping John O'Hart up when we catch him inventing stuff, is that since he doesn't provide references, what we have to do anyway is see if we can find people in the Annals of the Four Masters, or The Expulsion of the Déisi, or the Lebor Gabála Érenn or some such.

What I'm doing, instead of using O'Hart as a starting point, is working on each of the profiles in the tree -- bless my heart -- and if I can't find them in any of the ancient tomes, labeling them "O'Hart," rather than, say, "Annals of the Four Masters," or what not.

If we find later earlier references then that works.

But I'm going line by line.

Even though it's O'Hart that most of the Geni users have entered into the Tree, each entry has to get checked, if it's not in the line of supposed High Kings of Ireland, who were High Kings before there was such a thing.

In other words -- I don't believe O'Hart.

I wish he had told us, as Bartrum does, which of the manuscripts apply to his bits of information.

Then, even if they had been lost in the Post Office in 1916, we could still reference them.

but no.

he didn't.

Oh, darn. I detached St. Arianwen from the legendary St. Brychan, who couldn't have been her father anyway because the dates don't work, and Gaodhal Glas is still my 68th grandfather, this time through the Scots. Darn.

Carolyn Anne Hutchison "Proof of Ancient Lines of Irish Racial Purity" - What is wrong with that?

It means that there is an inherent bias in the study; it wouldn't matter to the results if the methodology were sound, but since in this case the methodology involved not giving sources, and creating links when they didn't exist, it's especially problematic and brings the whole study into question.

I've cut Niall form the legendary line, and provided explanation and links in his profile.

+1

Thank you, Anne, and discussion contributors. You are making the obscure so much clearer.

Excellent point

Anyone who thinks that they can trace their lineage back far enough to claim that they know who their 68th grandfather was is simply living in a fantasy world. Sorry not sorry......

Niall of the Nine Hostages, King of the Connachta is my 44th great grandfather, not my 68th grandfather. His son, Conall Gulban mac Neill, King of Tirconal is my 43rd great grandfather. His son, High King of Ireland Fergus Cennfota Cerrbel mac Conaill is my 42 great grandfather. Respond if you want more of the lineage. Respond if the lineage is also debunked.

He is showing as your 44th grandfather on Geni, so all is well here.

John McCaffrey, have you done any yDNA testing? Just curious as I don't see any haplogroup listed for you when I look at your profile. And if you have done yDNA testing are you confirmed to be below R-M222?

"Cutting" Niall, would be "Cutting" my Genes off. heh.

Niall of the Nine Hostages, King of the Connachta is your 45th great grandfather.

I'm melting, "Wizzard of Oz".

Niall of the Nine Hostages, King of the Connachta is my 47th great grandfather.
Carolyn Anne Hutchison is my 19th cousin four times removed.
You
→ Elza Dzelvite (Grahpe,Grāpe)
your mother → Jahn Grahpe
her father → Baron Arnold Julius von Vietinghoff-Riesch
his father → Juliane Charlotte Lulla von Vietinghoff
his mother → Helene Gertrude von Krüdener
her mother → Gustav Georg von Völckersahm
her father → Sophia Elisabeth von Mengden
his mother → ObtLt., Frhr Magnus Gustav von Mengden, von Altenwoga
her father → Gustav v. Mengden Frhr. v. Altenwoga
his father → Gertrud von Mengden Frfr. von Altenwoga
his mother → Jürgen von Rosen
her father → Kersten von Rosen
his father → Kersten III von Rosen auf Hochenrosen
his father → Jürgen l von Rosen
his father → N.N. von Tiesenhausen
his mother → Bartholomeus von Tiesenhausen, of Kokenhausen
her father → Johann von Tiesenhausen
his father → Princess Sofia von Hoya, a Princess of Polotsk and Countess of Hoya
his mother → Bernardus von Hoya
her father → Richeza von Hoya
his sister → Christian III, Graf von Oldenburg
her son → Johann II Count von Oldenburg
his son → Konrad I, count of Oldenburg
his son → Christian V, Graf von Oldenburg
his son → Dietrich "The Lucky" of Oldenburg, Count
his son → Christian I King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden
his son → Margaret af Danmark og Norge von Oldenburg
his daughter → James IV, king of Scots
her son → Janet Stewart
his daughter → Agnes Fleming
her daughter → Janet Livingston
her daughter → Margaret Elphinstone
her daughter → Sir Alexander Bruce
her son → Jean 'Jane' Bruce of Airth
his daughter → Alexander? Thomas? Elphinstone-Bruce
her son → George Bruce
his son → Joseph Bruce
his son → Joseph Bruce
his son → James Bruce
his son → Anne Watson
his daughter → Frank Leslie Watson
her son → Nigel Bruce-Watson
his son → Carolyn Anne Hutchison
his daughter