Aboazar Lovesendes, senhor da Maia - Aboazar Lovesendes: posted new document in Portuguese and I translated file to English: I do not like that his fatherly path was removed.

I totally agree with you on this Anwar.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim of a connection. All you need to do is provide either (a) primary sources from his lifetime, or (b) secondary academic sources.

Too many cuts without any burden of proof has been made when it could have been enough with a simple questionmark.

No longer blue examples.

https://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+%D8%A7%D9%84...

https://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Prophet-Muha...

Justin. My relationship with Prophet Muhammad PBUH is already being dramatically changed according to the other profiles in "Testing for Fake Medieval and Ancient Lines".

Here in Geni, I was once a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH through his daughter Fatimah bint Muhammad. I'm not more!

I have an ancestor that is my end of line. By hypothesis I put her as the daughter of a known person, due to some vestiges and because her possible grandfather was the first settler of the region with that last name.

I imagine that, being a well-recorded historical person, Prophet Muhammad PBUH must have left many tips about his descendants.

As I've said before, somewhere here at Geni, I do not have the facility to study in European profiles and facts. Only over the internet, as everyone has!
So I agree with Dr. Anwar Michael Ibrahim when he says "Please we need a TRUE Iberian Scholar and curators to review this line."

Dr. Ibrahim, I'll read with care PDFs.

There are some cultural centers near me that may contain old documents brought by Portuguese priests for the education of our people. There are even Old manuscript copies of Pliny the Elder (Gaius Plinius Secundus) in the library of a historic center nearby. So maybe I can found something. There are many publications from the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries.

"Some Christian Europeans and Americans seem to struggle with the fact that they may be a descendant of Rasoolullah -Muhammad, Peace Be Upon him."
I am a Christian and the more scientist I become, the more I believe and love Jesus. And being a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH is not a problem! Back there, we all came from the same people. And we can come back even more metaphysically and philosophically. We are all one and the one is everything!

This does not seem to be a problem here in Brazil. We are all descendants of Arabs, Jews, Congoneses, Angolans, Nigerians, Iberians, Saxons, Slavs, Norse, Germanic. Because the Arab occupation of the Iberian Peninsula, we are certainly all your descendants.

Aboazar Lovesendes, senhor da Maia is my 25th great grandfather.
Íñigo II Arista Íñiguez, rey de Pamplona (Half-brother of Musa II ibn Musa, vale de Tudela, Huesca y Zaragoza) is my 31st great grandfather.
Just to name a few!

As Prophet Muhammad PBUH had several wives and children, I believe that the likelihood of we be Your descendants is much greater than that of Charlemagne, acclaimed in all four corners as the ancestor of all Westerners.

Again I say that I can not contribute much with European studies. But I am a descendant of a mythical figure (Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson, for example). Why can not I be a descendant of Muhammad? An historical figure whose Your people occupied the region from which my ancestors came!

Well! My grandmother was Afro descent. My father-in-law was called the Shroud (of Christ) and my wife's name is Fatima!

And Yes, I talk a lot.

Geni originated as a crowd sourced family tree where any user could add any link they wanted, the end result was a family tree full of fake connections, unsupported theories, guesses, empty profiles, duplicates and mistakes.

Slowly over the years dedicated users have done their best to improve the quality of the tree, a major change that Geni implemented was disallowing Gedcom imports. Also the MP concept was introduced then later the option for MPs to be locked and recently the ability to lock the relationships of the immediate family around a MP.

Empty profiles, duplicates and mistakes are reasonably easy to find, in the last month or so has seen a renewed effort by members to start removing some of the fake connections as well as guesses and personal theories. This has resulted in a lot of changes high up in the tree and there will be more.

What you are seeing is not an effort to excise Muhammad from the tree of Americans, that is only a tiny portion of what is happening.

Sandro, I suggest rather than trying to find some lost "old document" which no one else has ever noticed you try reading some modern scholarly works on the subject based on the known historical sources. Within the Geni community we have Iberians and Muslims and Historians and Medievalists and Brazilians what is lacking is evidence to support the bad lines of connections.

Alex, I'm posting Spanish historical references, not, just family or personal opinion.

I understand the clean-up process and really appreciated MP locked profiles.

The problem arises with the, "King Of The KEY" mentality.

meaning , " I don't care how many facts you present.

I locked the profile, I'm a curator, you are not, and I am not changing things because I don't want to! Also then acting on only group discussions with NO valid proof posted to why a line was cut.

If a line is false or inaccurate, post supporting evidence to this. Don't make a cut, then say" PROVE IT" otherwise I am treating it as false.

This is a problem.

The Spanish lines seem to be being cut like a forest, without any research into Spanish/ Portuguese, or, Arab reference sources.

This is the only point where we don't concur:
"The Spanish lines seem to be being cut like a forest, without any research into Spanish/ Portuguese, or, Arab reference sources."

This may be your perception of what is happening but i think you would find the opposite is the case. Certainly more transparency would help in this regard But i dont think it would change the result.

Just to be crystal clear, i do not work on these lines. I have only noticed this discussion on the public board and my comments are based on how Geni as a whole works rather than specific actions in this part of the tree.

There are some common misunderstandings about these lines that we should clear up.

Many people think these old lines have been purged because the Spanish tried to erase evidence about these lines. That's almost true, but it's misleading.

The truth is the Spanish erased these lines so well that no evidence remains.

Everyone agrees that the Spanish Christians certainly must have mixed with the Muslim and Jewish populations, but experts are unanimously agreed that there are no provable descents to the modern day.

There just aren't. All gone. All erased.

Some people try to play the religious bigot card. They say the evidence is being buried by people who don't want this ancestry. But that's not even close to being true. Many people want it so badly they'd probably be willing to kill for the evidence. They just won't lie for it.

People want these lines so much that many experts have advanced theories about how some of the lines might connect. Over time, those theories keep being repeated until most people don't even know there is still no evidence to support them.

One of the biggest problems in these old Spanish lines is the same as all genealogy in Europe and America -- there are are lot of fakes, and forgeries, and wishful thinking up until about 1900.

That's when modern genealogy started to emerge, with its insistence on proving connections with primary sources rather than just copying older genealogies.

That's also when we started having this kind of crisis. It comes as a shock to a lot of people when they discover that there is no actual proof of the old legends.

The Spanish lines aren't being singled out here. There is a lot of cutting of unproven connections all across European medieval lines.

What that really means is that genealogy is moving out of the Dark Ages and into the 21st century. That process has been accelerating ever since World War II, but until we had collaborative sites like Geni most people had their little private trees here or there, but never had to face the problem of finding evidence.

It's easy not to know the truth if you're hiding in place where there's no one to tell you you're wrong ;)

Descents from Prophet Muhammad of Islam (PBUH) present a special problem on Geni.

There is a split in the Muslim community here. Sunni Muslims generally believe the Prophet (PBUH) had four daughters. Shia Muslims generally believe his only biological daughter was Fatima.

Geni is not a religious site. It seems to me that people with European Christian ancestry would be well advised to steer clear of this problem.

It's not our problem.

What happened is this -- in the 8th century the Emirs of Cordoba started claiming descent from Aisha, said to have been a daughter of Muhammad (PBUH) by the Sunnis. Their claim was not accepted by the majority of Muslims outside their own jurisdiction. And in fact there do seem to be problems with it.

Then, there is one line from the Emirs into Christian Spain. There are problems with that line too.

And finally, there is the gap in connecting any Muslim family in Spain to any modern descendants.

The experts are all agreed here -- no one has a proven descent from the Prophet (PBUH) through Christian Spain.

I've had many Muslim friends in the course of my life, some of them very knowledgeable, both Sunni and Shia. The ones who know about this supposed European line are shocked by it. Both Shia and Sunni. Over the years, several of them have told they think it's blasphemous.

I tell this story because it shows my own thinking on the subject. I think it is an explosive question in the absence of real evidence. Find the evidence and I'll change my mind. Until then, stop trying to incite a religious war on Geni.

All I request is, if a cut is made, post facts; references for all to review so we can accept and agree with cuts made.

Do we not weight facts to prove false lines with facts to prove them true?

Notations on the top of page by a curator is NOT enough.

post proof that the line is false, just as, proof is needed to verify a line is true.

thanks guys.

A tree path that has controversy does not equal False.

Private User, the reference is in the profile. The info you posted is just modern junk. No primary sources. Spanish scholarship is MUCH further along than this.

I am relying here on Todd Farmerie and the more academic crowd at soc.genealogy.medieval. They've been posting about this for 20 years now. Todd Farmerie in particular keeps up with the academic literature, including the Spanish material.

My recommendation, if you want to argue this problem, is that you go there, and search the discussions. If you're that guy who has the magic evidence all the experts have missed, then great. Present your case, and get the real medieval experts to agree with you. Then you won't just change Geni. You'll change hundreds, maybe thousands, of websites around the world.

> A tree path that has controversy does not equal False.

A deceptive argument. Controversy does not mean a line in false. An absence of evidence does not mean a line is false.

But, what it takes to prove a line is true is something more -- there has to be evidence to support it. That means there has to be good contemporary evidence. Failing that, there has to be agreement by a majority of experts.

You don't have that here. What you have is a minority opinion rejected by modern scholars. That's a hard case to argue.

Here is the link to soc.genealogy.medieval if you need it:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/soc.genealogy.medieval

I'm talking in general Justin, Thanks.

I still completely disagree with you on the "Zaida de Sevilla" profile and the curating you did there.

Creating a mythical profile and calling it Isabel was not a proactive solution.

I provided enough valid sources.

Have a nice evening buddy :)

Yes. I understand that.

But you are also making false accusations about people's motives. When curators cut a line, we include references, but you are refusing to accept the work of modern scholars and pretending those sources don't count.

And, you are demanding something that goes against all of modern genealogy -- you want the burden of proof to be on the person claiming the line is false rather than (properly) having the burden of proof on the person claiming the line is true.

In this discussion you have not addressed any of the actual problems with the line, even though you know them from previous discussions.

Geni might not be the right site for you. We emphasize evidence-based genealogy. And, we have agreed to work together to develop lines that have genuine evidence and to cut lines that cannot be proven by modern standards of proof. Some people find they don't like working in that environment. If it's important to you to have certain lines in your genealogy, and you don't care about evidence, then you're always going to struggle here.

Cross-posted. The Isabel / Zaida problem is a hard one. Geni reflects the current academic thinking. And, it's a bit on the generous side at that. The Zaida myth that appeals to has been roundly rejected by everyone who has examined it.

Justin I appreciate the work you do. I just want to see some Spanish / Portuguese Iberian Historians perspectives.

Quote:"The Zaida myth that appeals to has been roundly rejected by everyone who has examined it."

"NOT TRUE" Spanish and some French Historians support my preferred view.

I understand your opinions are limited to American, Christian, historian perspectives which may be skewed or limited.

You are quite wrong about that. I've referred you to the discussions at soc.genealogy.medieval. You won't read them. They quote extensively from MODERN academics. You are citing 18th and 19th sources. That's a huge difference.

Greetings friends and far cousins. Sorry for my bad English. For me its difficult. I been saw various trees in myheritage accounts and also in familysearch where Aboazar (Abú Nazar) Lovesendes is son of Lovesendo Ramíres and Zaira Bint Zaida (of her or other woman of Arabic origin). I am annoying with various curators, between they with Lucía Pilla (Brazilian or Portuguese). I'm not secure of her nationality but I been saw when she been cut my tree and put Aboazar Lovesendes, traditional ancestry without parents. And about the Prophet Abú El Cassim Muhammad, I understand that he had four daughters and three sons (the men dead in their infance). Also the Prophet adopted one son. I descend of one daughter called Rucaiyáh.

Would it help to have a Geni project about European descendants of Muhammad (PBUH)?

A few years ago, I started to draft a summary of the different lines, their weak points, and the reasons modern scholars reject them. I dropped the idea because there were other places on Geni I wanted to work on. I could go back to it, if this is really such a high priority.

For a guide to cleaning up the medieval Spanish lines see the Geni project "Ancestors of Teresa of Portugal".

https://www.geni.com/projects/Ancestors-of-Teresa-of-Portugal/30715

This project is based on the work of Todd Farmerie at soc.genealogy.medieval. He surveyed the current literature and created an ahnentafel ("ancestor table") for Teresa that summarizes the lines that are generally accepted.

This work was in 1997, so it's possible there would be some minor changes based on work since then.

This project does not include all of medieval Spanish ancestry. It is only the known ancestors of Teresa of Portugal, but her ancestry is broad enough and deep enough that it touches a huge chunk of it.

I always add a profile with its attached fonts. But Gertrudes is very difficult! That's why I put my justification on "About Me"!
Is this good to justify the Iberian affiliations of the Arabs/Muslims?
Citing some evidence and leaving the question open.
What do you think?

=Re "It's easy not to know the truth if you're hiding in place where there's no one to tell you you're wrong ;)" This is nub of the issue, imo.
Shakespeare has Hamlet make the point too: "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams."

Sandro, I don't know anything about your ancestor Gertrudes Marianna Lopes.

It's hard to keep a speculative connection on Geni, because most users want a real, documented tree.

The connection is a theory, but I can't judge how persuasive the theory is.

There are other connections like this on Geni. Curators generally leave them alone unless the person is prominent or unless someone objects. In that case, the curators might have to take the side of the person who doesn't like the connection (because the evidence is not good).

This is similar to the problem with the Muslim and Christian connections on Geni. These people have hundreds of thousands of descendants all over the world. When they come to Geni looking for their ancestry, they have a right to have a tree we can verify, not just fantasy and speculation.