John Martin, I - Detach John I from John of VA?

Dates are wrong also for John Martin l. Christian Pettus’ Williams daughter was born 1659

Mary Elkins

Taking the site with a grain of salt

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/131605608/christian-waddington

CHRISTIAN PETTUS was married first to JOHN T. MARTIN and they had issue including two daughters: REBECCA MARTIN and CHRISTIAN MARTIN and a son JOHN MARTIN [b 1656; d. 1694].

After JOHN MARTIN died CHRISTIAN was married second to FRANCIS WADDINGTON Sr. and they had a son FRANCIS E. WADDINGTON who was born in 1675.

(So I would question her Williams marriage also)

Christian Pettus daughter of Thomas Pettus & KaOkee (Jane) - Christian aka Christian Martin; Christian Williams
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Elizabeth Bryant, a daughter of Dr. Richard Bryant and Anne Meese, married Richard Elkins and left many descendants by him. Richard Elkins had first married Mary Williams, daughter of Evan Williams and Christian Martin, a granddaughter of Ka-Okee of the Pocahontas line.

Source of Info - William Deyo, Patawomeck Tribal Historian
http://www.mdhervey.com/photos/Wahanganoche%20Family%20Connection.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~
"MARRIAGES OF RICHMOND COUNTY VIRGINIA 1668-1853" by Geo. H. S. King:

pg. 64: ELKINS, RICHARD (son of Ralph) married by 12 January 1695 Mary Williams, daughter of Evan and Christian Williams; they have a son JAMES ELKINS, a minor, who is to be educated. DB #2, p. 87; DB #6, p,.37.
http://www.colonial-settlers-md-va.us/getperson.php?personID=I04077...

There’s a bit more detail about Christian Williams here:

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~darburns/elkins/reports/immigrants.html

pg. 64: ELKINS, RICHARD (son of Ralph) married by 12 January 1695 Mary Williams, daughter of Evan and Christian Williams; they have a son JAMES ELKINS, a minor, who is to be educated. DB #2, p. 87; DB #6, p,.37.

pg. 175: Benjamin Rush (16??-1766) of Westmoreland, King George, and Prince William counties of Virginia, and Bute County, North Carolina, married in the spring of 1717 Amy (surname unknown), widow of James Elkins (16??-1717), son of Richard and Mary (Williams) Elkins (q.V.),

p. 64. James Elkins' plantation of 250 acres fell into King George County upon its formation in 1721.

COB #7,p.99,218; DB #2, p. 87; DB #6, p.37; DB#7,p.191; WB#3, p. 317; King George County COB #1, p. 78,350 and DB #1-A,p.225, 294; OPR.,P.104.

RICHMOND COUNTY VIRGINIA WILL BOOK #2.

1694 Jan. 12; p.47-Deed of Gift: James Elkins, son of Richard Elkins and his wife, Mary (Williams) Elkins, is willed by Mrs. Christian Williams of St. Mary's Parish in Richmond Co., "5 cows, a good feather bed and furniture and two brass kettles, one to hold about 13 gallons, 2 iron pots, 1 bell, mettle spice mortar and pestle, 5 pewter dishes, 2 horses and 2000 lbs. tobacco in cask" to be paid for aforesaid grandchild, (James Elkins) schooling when he comes to age of 23 yrs. Deed of Gift signed with her mark. 1726 ORDER BOOK, KING GEORGE CO., pg. 309; "On motion of Benjamin Rush, it is ordered that he be appointed guardian of JOSEPH ELKIN."

Here are the facts on this family. I am happy to provide the documentary sources for all the following statements:
Christian unknown [Martin, Waddington]:
Born abt. 1639, died about 1700
No record of birth, marriage, or death, no will
First appears in any records in 1689 (a court deposition stated she was about 50)
By extrapolation from other records Christian Unknown was married to 1) John Martin by 1667 (daughter Ann born then) and 2) Francis Waddington by 1674 (son Francis Waddington born in 1675) so John Martin must have died by 1674; Francis Waddington, Sr, was dead by 1700; there is no mention of a widow in subsequent deeds or court records, so Christian must have died before him.

Christian had three or four children by John Martin and one by Francis Waddington:

Ann Martin, b. 1657 d. 1741
Married 1) Jacob Hubbard, 2/3 sons Jacob, John, Matthew (John named in Jacob’s will, Matthew named in Ann’s will. A grand-child? Posthumous son?)
2) Edward Watts, sons Thomas, Edward, and Francis, daughter Margaret
3) Daniel McPherson, no children

Christian Martin (Jr) birthdate bet. 1655-1665 death 12 Nov 1721
Married 1) Evan Williams (died 1692, will presented 1694, index-only record)
Daughter Mary
2) Rev. John Waugh m. 13 May 1702 no children (Waugh died in 1706)
3) John Hawkins m. bef. 11 Dec 1707 no children

John Martin Jr born abt. 1665 died
Named in will of cousin Frances Golber/White/Lampton 24 Apr 1716 “cousin John Martin Jr. the tract of land where Richard Craford is now living.” Wits: Mary Martin, Thomas MacDunin, Elizabeth Spears

In a court record from 1727 Anne acknowledged the right of John Martin, Jr. to land in King George county that her husband, Daniel McPherson, had purchased from Francis Waddington [unclear whether Sr or Jr, both were dead at this point] even though Francis on his deathbed said the land should belong to John Martin, Jr.

Francis Martin birthdate unknown died aft. 1716 (it is possible that Francis is the son of John, Jr. not his brother, no supporting records)
Married
Named in will of cousin Frances Golber/White/Lampton 24 Apr 1716
“cousin Francis Martin the tract of land where James Clark is now living; will had no executor, witnesses were Mary Martin, Thomas MacDunil, Elizabeth Spears

Francis Waddington, Jr. born abt. 1674 died abt. 1723
Married Joanna Monk, widow of James Monk abt 1700

Here is the information on Christian Martin the younger:

Christian Martin (Jr) birthdate bet. 1655-1665 death 12 Nov 1721

Married 1) Evan Williams (died 1692, will presented 1694, index-only record)
Daughter Mary

2) Rev. John Waugh m. 13 May 1702 no children (Waugh died in 1706)

3) John Hawkins m. bef. 11 Dec 1707 no children

Stafford County, Virginia Marriage References and Family Relationships 1664-1800, F. Edward Wright, Colonial Roots, Lewes, Delaware 2011
p. 74
Hawkins, John (d. 1717) m. bef 11 Dec 1707 Chrisian (N) (d. 1721) widow of John Waugh. {D&W 1699-1709:392; SP}

p. 265 Evan Williams
To his house accomadations Six barrels of Corne by agreement & 200 Lbs Tobac see that two bush three peck vantinge mades at 150 pr barrel 83 wch added to 200To Strippinge & packing his Tobacco; To rowlinge to hhds at 15 pr hhd; To husking his Corne: To his levy for year 1690 , in 1691; To a Leather jackett; to a pr buckskin stockings
Contra By his crop of Tobacco; By Five barrels two bush & peck of corne; pr Jr Adderton Bill ; he owes to ball 162 – Total 1395. Pr John Hawkins Bill; yr man run away & the Bill not worth a farthing thought bee for 600
Henry Nellson made oath in Court that the above is a truc and perfect accompt of said Evan Williams deced Estate on the 12th day of November 1692
Court held 11 May 1692

5. Judgment is granted to Christopher Richardson for sum of four hundred pounds of Tobacco against the Estate of Evan Williams late of this County deced in the hands of Henry Nelson Provided that the said Christopher Richardson doe dliver up to the said Henry Nelson a Sute of Leather Clothese belonging to the said Evan William deced

Will Book 2 p. 47 by deed of gift, 12 Jan. 1694/95, is willed by Mrs. Xpian Williams of St. Marys Parish in Richmond Co., 5 cows, a good feather bed and furniture and tow brass kittles, one to hold about 13 gallons, 2 iron pots, 1 bell mettle spice mortar and pestle, 5 pewter, dishes, 2 horses and 2000 pounds of tobacco in cask" to be paid for the aforesaid grandchild, (James Elkins) schooling when he comes to age of 23yrs. Mrs. Williams names James Elkins as her grandson and states he is the son of Richard Elkins and Mary. Mrs. Williams signed the Deed of Gift with her mark.

1707/8, 11 Feb: At Stafford Co., VA Court, the within power of attorney upon motion of Major William ROBINSON was ordered to be recorded. Whereas we William FITZHUGH, Thomas GREGG, Henry CONNYER & Leonard TARENT were this day appointed and elected auditors of the matter in difference between Joseph WAUGH, John WAUGH and Alexr. WAUGH, Admrs. of John WAUGH Clk deced & John HAWKINS & Christian his wife late Widow of the said deced relating to her thirds of the personal of said John WAUGH Clk & thereupon having fully audited adjusted stated & settled all accounts concerning the same do award, John HAWKINS & Christian his wife for a full ballance of their share and part of the estate of John WAUGH deced that is at present come to the hands of Admrs. shall be one feather bed & furniture according to the appraismt. 1600; one trunk 80; one looking glass 36 & that they have third part of the estate of the deced as shall hereafter come into hands of Joseph WAUGH 11 Dec 1707.

Christian Hawkins will was filed in Stafford County, VA in 1722. The will book itself is missing but the index remains.

There is no mention ANYWHERE of Christian Waddington before her 1689 court deposition. There is noting to support any connection to Thomas Pettus or the mythical "Kaokee." Her children and their numerous spouses are pretty well documented through various court records.

No one in Virginia married anyone named "Anne Meese." Henry Meese's daughter Anne was born, lived, and died in England.

"KAOKEE" for the daughter of Pocahontas and Patawomeck warrior, Kocoum.

http://patawomeckindiantribeofvirginia.org/ct-menu-item-17

Thatvis strictly speculation by Bill Deyo. There is not one dicument that suggests, let alone confirms this story. There is one line is a report that suggests Pocahontas was married to a man named Kocoum before she married John Rolfe. Period, end of story. No confirmation, no documentation. Two twentieth century people published competing stories. One says Pocahontas had a son named Little Kocoum, one says she had a daughter named Kaokee. Neither has any factual substantiation.

On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Linda Buchholz wrote:

Bill: According to some info I have found Pocahontas had 1 or possibly 2 children by Kocoum. Kahokee "Jane" and Young Kocoum. Do you know whether this is accurate or not? I a trying to get my information corrected as best I can.

Deyo, Bill L CTR NSWCDD
Aug 8, 2016, 7:24 AM

The one child known by the Patawomeck that Pocahontas had was Ka-Okee. That is not to say that she did not have other children. I actually think that she did have at least one more between her marriage in 1610 and her abduction in 1613. I do not believe that the child was named Little Kocoum, however.

COL. HENRY MEESE, MERCHANT, TRADER, AND SON-IN-LAW OF THE KING OF

PATAWOMECK

A large number of the Patawomeck Tribal members descend from Col. Henry Meese and his wife, a daughter of Wahanganoche, King of Patawomeck, whose Christian name is believed to have been “Mary”.

This couple had very interesting family ties. Mary’s father was the son of Chief Japasaw and his wife, who was a sister of Pocahontas, daughter of Powhatan. Mary’s mother is strongly believed to have been a daughter of Col. Thomas Pettus and his first wife, Ka-Okee, daughter of Pocahontas and her first husband, Kocoum, younger brother of Japasaw.

That would help to explain why Col. Thomas Pettus deeded his land that adjoined Chief Wahanganoche to Henry Meese, who would have been the husband of his
granddaughter, Mary.

Henry Meese was bom in 1628 in Oxfordshire, England, to Robert Meese and
Mercy Brend, daughter of Nicholas Brend, the first owner of the famous Globe Theatre, built on the land that he leased to William Shakespeare and others. The Brend family descended from English royalty.

Henry Meese ’s paternal grandparents were John Meese and Margaret Cox, likely a relative of the Cox family of Stafford and Westmoreland Counties in Virginia.

Henry Meese sailed to Maryland from England in the 1650’s, as a young man in his 20’s. Being from a noble family, his name is often styled as “gentleman” in the records. Henry Meese, merchant, was one of the executors of the estate of Basil Little (also a merchant) in 1657/8 and was called a “merchant of London” in partnership with Nathaniel Utie in Maryland in 1658. By the early 1660’s, he was in the area
of Stafford County, Virginia, and had become the son-in-law of Wahanganoche, King of Patawomeck.

The story was told by some of his descendants that he gave livestock to the Chief for the hand of the Chief’s daughter in marriage. In 1662, Wahanganoche deeded land to Henry Meese. This time frame matches the age range of Henry’s children, as stated in his will of 1681.

After the formation of Stafford County from Westmoreland, Meese was its first representative in the House of Burgesses in 1666. He was appointed to
the Virginia Council in 1679. He had married his second wife, Anne Pert, per marriage contract in England dated 16 April 1675, returned to England in 1681 and died there in 1682.

His will provided for his children bom in Virginia, namely Henry, John, Anne, and Frances Meese, all under 21 in 1681. Nothing is known of the son, Henry. It is believed by the compiler that the son, John, first married his cousin, Rebecca Pettus,
daughter of Robert Pettus, believed to have been a son of Col. Thomas Pettus and his first wife, Ko-Okee, daughter of Pocahontas and Kocoum.

John Meese married secondly to Mary (Grigsby) Newton, daughter
of the immigrant, John Grigsby, who traditionally married another daughter of Wahanganoche. The Mees/Mays family of Stafford, descending from Robert Mays (b. 1735) and his wife, Elizabeth Bolling, have long carried a tradition of a descent from Pocahontas, which many believe must be through the Bolling family. However, since that Bolling family is not descended from Robert Bolling who married the
granddaughter of Pocahontas and John Rolfe, the compiler believes that the Pocahontas descent is through Robert Mays and that he was a grandson of John Meese and Rebecca Pettus.

Henry Meese’s daughter, Anne, married first to a Mr. Redman, by whom she had a son, William, and secondly to Dr. Richard Bryant, her first cousin, son of Keziah Arroyah, another daughter of Wahanganoche. The last named daughter of Henry Meese, Frances, has often been stated to have been the first wife of Rev. John Waugh and mother of his older children, but that is not possible, due to her age. She would have been close to the same age as those children. It is not known who Frances married, but we will hopefully one day determine that information and discover another large group of descendants of Henry Meese.

Some of the earlier families who descend from Henry Meese are: Bryant,
Redman/Redmond, Jeffries, Elkins, Monteith, Rogers, Owens, Kenney, Newton, Dobson, Bowie, Hudson,
Jones, and Bradshaw, but there are countless other families today.

https://archive.org/stream/PatawomeckTides2015/newsletter2015_djvu.txt

The only mention of Pocahontas having a first marriage is one line from William Strachey in 1612 stating that she had been married to a man named Kocoum for two years (she was about 16 years old). No mention of any children. By spring of 1613 Pocahontas was a captive of the English. Children are never mentioned and she would not have had time betwen her marriage and capture to have more than one child, if that. She would also have still been nursing an infant, and/or have been pregnant, neither of which was the case. If she had a child who then had children by a prominent white man, that would have made history. There is nothing to support this story except wishful thinking.

Deyo, Bill L CTR NSWCDD
Aug 8, 2016, 7:24 AM

The one child known by the Patawomeck that Pocahontas had was Ka-Okee.

Paper will never be found on oral histories passed down thru tribes.

Always valued in the Native world, oral history gains respect among Western scholars

Indian stories typically have been dismissed by many scholars as folklore, myth, or legend—entertaining but of little value to the historical record.

But to American Indian people, these stories are essential to life itself. “If the stories are not told and the songs not sung, the land will die,” says Wilson Hunter, a Navajo ranger for the National Park Service.

https://tribalcollegejournal.org/history-person-valued-native-world...

Throughout history, Aboriginal societies in North America have relied on the oral transmission of stories, histories, lessons and other knowledge to maintain a historical record and sustain their cultures and identities. According to scholars Renée Hulan and Renate Eigenbrod, oral traditions are “the means by which knowledge is reproduced, preserved and conveyed from generation to generation. Oral traditions form the foundation of Aboriginal societies, connecting speaker and listener in communal experience and uniting past and present in memory.”2

https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/oral_traditions/

As far as not having enough time to have more than one child --- my cousin had 5 children by the time she was 21

My grandmother had 5 children in 5 years -- my mother and her brother are 10 months apart. The argument about not having time does not hold water.

No argument, just facts. There is no record anywhere that Pocahontas had other children. The stories about various descendants did mot exist until the 20th century. This is supposed to be a genealogy site, not mythology. If iany of these events really happened there will be some kind of record made during or shortly after the time of the event.

Oral history is a record

Birth certificates have not been around forever -- are we to discount ALL the thousands of people born before birth certificates came about?????? Just because there's not a piece of paper to say it happened doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just sayin'

For centuries, births and deaths were documented in church records, not government ones. And early attempts in America to get the government involved in recording births stalled. In 1632, Virginia’s General Assembly passed a law that required all ministers to keep track of christenings, marriages and burials, but the practice died almost immediately because it was so foreign to church officials. Massachusetts passed a 1639 law requiring towns to do the same thing, but records remained patchy and inaccurate.

Part of the reason was the messy process of childbirth itself: Women birthed children at home or in friends’ houses, and many did not survive infancy or childhood. If a child did not live to be baptized, was enslaved or moved from place to place, its birth might not be recorded at all—or its memory might live on only in a family Bible or its mother’s memory.

https://www.history.com/news/the-history-of-birth-certificates-is-s...

Linda (Carr) Buchholz, Kit # FW864102C1 Geni is not a site that is very good on supporting the unproven / unproveable. For the last 12 years (Geni started in 2006) members have been grappling with how to best depict oral histories, sagas, fragments of genealogy, Native cultures before written times, possible scenarios, disproven genealogies still in circulation, etc.

We (collectively) have come to realize that we can’t have it both ways in this software, and fortunately, Geni has implemented “isolated” trees; we have used that to good effect on the Cherokee historic tree, as example.

I’ve read Strachey, our one contemporaneous chronicler, and urge you (and everyone) to do same. Helen Rountree is a working historian for the Powhatan interaction with the colonists, her work is well thought of. If we focus on these specific interactions (the writing of John Smith also, although he’s thought to have ... um ... exaggerated), “and” if we apply what we know about the cultures, we’ll see that the evidence for any additional children of Pocohantas does not meet genealogical standard of proof.

Which is what Geni aspires to do, always a work in progress.

I get it and always have that you have to go with paper but what is offensive is when someone calls tribal oral history speculation, mythology and wishful thinking. Makes your mind go immediately back to Walter Plecker's paper genocide

At one time everyone thought the world was flat (and there was even paper showing that it was) but that has been proven to be wrong (so much for the paper)

Just sayin'

Consider the sources of the points made on this discussion ... :)

For example, everyone is capable of over reach. Apparently Jim Hicks had a tremendous amount of valid data he put on line, extremely helpful. Went too far, that’s all.