Thomas Foulke - Possible Welsh ancestry of my immigrant ancestor Thomas Foulke (1624-1714)

Anne Brannen Your suggestions especially welcome.

Barry Foulks Contacted me because apparently a cousin’s wife I share a name with, Isabel Ruth Howton, was a Foulke family researcher.

Barry had written:

“I know about her because she posted queries about my Foulke family in the short lived genealogy newsletter "Kin Foulkes" in 1985. She apparently had a link for Thomas Fouke (b. 1571 she said) of Codnor, Derbyshire, who married Dorothy Cham at the Church of St. Lawrence at Heanor, Derbyshire, on Oct. 30, 1616 (confirmed by the Heanor parish register and Phillimore's Derbyshire marriage listings), to a Welsh Ffolk family, and was submitting queries to confirm this link. This Thomas Fouke of Codnor is believed to be the father of my immigrant ancestor, Thomas Foulke. ... the big problem for me is how did Isabel suspect that the Thomas 1591 in this pedigree was the Thomas Fouke of Codnor who married Dorothy Cham in 1616, did she have any proof or was she making an educated guess?”

Since she passed on in 2003 we can’t ask ...

Dwnn is problematic, in that he simply recorded the various genealogies, without dealing with the differences between them.

that said, it's entirely possible that The Ffoulkes in Derbyshire had come originally from Wales -- but it's entirely possible that they didn't.

There are no Ffoulkes in Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, meaning not necessarily that there were no Ffoulkes in Wales before 1500 or so (which is when the Genealogies stop), but that if the family was there, they had not taken surnames yet. So that's no help.

But my real problem with trying to connect a Derbyshire family to a particular family in Wales is that, though there are not many surnames in Wales, Fulke (which comes from a Norman surname) is widely found in Northeast Wales and in Montgomeryshire.

So, why that family? I can't even say that it was an educated guess, since we have no evidence of the connection.

Alas.

Bartrum came across the pedigree of this family, surname spelled "Ffolk" (as you probably know, many spelling variations of this surname, which makes it trickier to find them), while researching the Gadarn family, who were cousins to them. See page 745 of his "Welsh Genealogies", AD 1400-1500, Vol 5.
The Bartrum Ffolk pedigree only goes up to Rhys Ffolk, however, who was the grandfather of Tomas 1591, apparently because he cut it off in the 1500's.
Yes, the name was commonly spelled "Foulke", as a personal name and later as a surname in North Wales (a perfect example of this is the Edward Foulke family of Pennsylvania, whom I believe is on this site, he was originally Edward ap Foulke in Merionethshire, son of Foulke ap Thomas), which is one reason why this different spelling and location caught my attention. I am trying to figure out why someone would go out on a limb like this to connect Thomas Fouke of Codnor, Derbyshire to the Ffolke family of South Wales, unless they were a descendant of this family and never got or wanted to publish their research. To me, it just doesn't make sense unless they had a personal reason to make a connection.

Also contemporary with Isabel Howton in California was Stephen Pellet or Pellette, in 1981 living at 4593 Clairemont Mesa Blvd., San Diego, California 92117. I do not know if he is still living, or if he knew Mrs. Howton. In correspondence with another Foulke researcher, he stated that Thomas and Dorothy Fouke of Codnor were the parents of my immigrant ancestor Thomas Foulke (1624-1714).
His reference for this information was John E. Scully, who wrote "Notes on Thomas Foulkes the Burl. Co. Pioneer" Sept. 7, 1981, referring to the notes of Alfred Rudulph Justice. Alfred Rudulph Justice (1857-1932) was a Philadelphia silver merchant, genealogist, and author, who used professional genealogists in England, and was directly descended from Thomas and Dorothy Fouke, through their son, the immigrant Thomas Foulke (1624-1714).
Stephen Pellette also stated that the parents of Thomas Fouke of Codnor (he also says that he was born in 1571, as Mrs. Howton did, transcription error for 1591?) were William Ffolke and Allen (sic) Giorlas. In this he was in error, apparently, as Tomas 1591 in the Dwnn pedigree was the nephew of William and Ellen, not their son. It shows, however, that he was familiar with a Welsh connection for Thomas Fouke of Codnor. He does not name his source for this connection, unless he was implying that he was relying on the notes of Alfred Rudulph Justice also, in this case.
To me, this begs the question, could Isabel Howton and/or Stephen Pellette been descendants of or related to Alfred Rudulph Justice, and thus also of Thomas Fouke of Codnor and Thomas Foulke the immigrant, and were able to access his Foulke family notes? Mr. Justice had a son and two daughters, according to his own genealogy, so I find this possible, if not proven, yet.

Going back to the Ffolks of South Wales, you are also right when you say that Fulco or Fouke is a Norman name. Whether it really belongs there or not, you will find it on lists of the Battle Abbey Roll of 1066, and certainly in the Domesday Book of 1086.
Both the Dwnn and the Bartrum pedigrees begin with Richard Ffolk, first Mayor of Haverfordwest in the reign of King Henry VII (1485-1509). If the Foukes were part of the Norman invasion, some of them would have had several centuries to migrate to North Wales as Foulke, with one branch eventually making it all the way to the south of Wales as Ffolk, or perhaps that branch came directly from England.
One of Isabel Howton's queries concerned a John Folke, whose residence was in Rye, England, but who passed away in Wales in 1570. This would seem to indicate that before Tomas 1591, other Ffolks were not stationary in either Wales or England. Most of them were, of course, but since my immigrant ancestor Thomas Foulke crossed the Atlantic Ocean to change location in different countries, perhaps he inherited that spirit of adventure from his father, Thomas of Codnor, perhaps originally of Wales.

Just to show how my Thomas Foulke family from England is confused with the Edward Foulke family of Wales, right here on Geni the profile of my Thomas Foulke (1624-1714) has been altered, so that when you click on his father Thomas, you now get Thomas Foulke (1679-1762), the son of Edward Foulke (1651-1741) of the Welsh family. This is impossible for chronological, if not any other, reasons. Also, Thomas Foulke (1624-1714) is not the "half brother" of anyone on his profile, and I am not the 14th cousin, 5 times removed, of my own immigrant ancestor. I hope that this illustrates how the English and Welsh Foulke families can become easily mixed up, as they have been for a long time, and that the "new" Ffolk family in South Wales can be carefully investigated and sorted out.

Today my English colleague, who is helping me to investigate the origins of our Foulke family of Derbyshire, England, sent me this remarkable information, which shows that the Folks of South Wales were using the Folk surname from at least 1300, regardless of what the Foulkes of North Wales were doing at that time, and long before the Dwnn and Bartrum pedigrees that commence with Richard Ffolk, First Mayor of Haverfordwest, in the reign of Henry VII (1485-1509).
She found this information on the online catalogue of the "Pembrokeshire County Council" site. Ref. No. HBORO/1186 for the Haverfordwest Borough Records, dated "Tuesday the feast of St Petronills the Virgin" in the year 1323, mentions a WILLIAM FOLK, clerk, which shows that there were Folks in the Haverfordwest area of South Wales from at least 1300, and that they were using "Folk" as a surname, not as a personal name, by this time.
Ref. No. HBORO/1175, for the Haverfordwest Borough Records dated May 31, 1393, mentions as a witness for a burgage (town rental property) grant THOMAS FOLK, again pinpointing the exact place where Richard Ffolk was the Mayor a century later.
My opinion would be that there was a family in South Wales using the surname FOLK long before 1500, and I mean no disrespect for the monumental work that Lewys Dwnn and Peter Bartrum did in their time, we are standing on their shoulders.

Lovely work!

I am still learning each day myself, and now know that Haverfordwest, the home of the Folk family of South Wales, is part of "Little England beyond Wales", because the Normans had invaded and settled there starting in 1093, less that thirty years after their initial invasion from Normandy in 1066 under William the Conqueror. Haverfordwest was in the heart of that Normanized colony, and the Folk (Norman name) family was there since at least 1300.
I am very tempted to speculate that the progenitor of the Folk family of Haverfordwest was among the invading Norman army, and that he settled down there and started a family line unrelated to the indigenous Foulke family in North Wales.
As I have noted, these Folks of Haverfordwest were using Folk as a surname when the native Welsh still were using the name Foulke as a personal name, such as Edward ap (son of) Foulke, not being called Edward Foulke until he came to America and adopted the surname usage there in 1698.
Of course, the big question for me still remains, was Tomas Ffolk 1591 of South Wales, the Thomas Fouke appearing in Codnor, Derbyshire, by 1616, as the (so far) unverified research of Isabel Howton and Stephen Pellette seems to indicate?

I’ve gotten Thomas Fouke , Dorothy Cham & Thomas Edward Foulke, of Burlington separated from the Thomas Foulke (son of Edward) family.

The relationships should be correct also although it might need a cache refresh. I’ve relationship locked Dorothy & Thomas to each other with no parents & son Thomas.

I am showing Thomas Fouke, of Codnor is your first cousin twice removed's wife's 9th great grandfather.

https://www.geni.com/path/Erica-Howton+is+related+to+Thomas-Fouke-o...

Looks like the tree is fixed

https://www.geni.com/path/Thomas-Fouke-of-Codnor+is+related+to+Barr...

Thank You, Erica, looks like I'm a Fouke descendant again instead of a six degrees of separation connection. Hope to see where this goes next!

Thank you for the conversation. As a descendant of Thomas Foulke of Burlington I always wonder where the English roots are (and how they became Quakers and emigrated).

Janet, you are quite welcome. Thomas Foulke, living in Holmgate, near Chesterfield, Derbyshire, must have been a part of the Quaker religion nearly from the beginning, as George Fox paid an early visit to Chesterfield, and, starting in 1655, the births of his children by wife Mary are in the Chesterfield Quaker register.

Private User Very cool. Actually Private User is in this tree also.

I noticed the marriage of Dorothy Cham was in the Anglican Church. Does that shed any light on Origins? And the Curtis family married in was also of Derbyshire.

There were Cham/Cams in Heanor and Codnor, contemporary with Dorothy Cham. One of the oldest ones came over from Nottinghamshire, and others were scattered throughout eastern Derbyshire. A Thomas Cham of North Wingfield was buried July 27, 1614, who could provide a reason for Thomas and Dorothy (Cham) Fouke moving to Holmgate, North Wingfield, but so far none of these Chams has been proven to be related to Dorothy.
The Curtis family of which Elizabeth belonged to, who married Thomas Jr., the son of Thomas and Mary Foulke, had lived in Derbyshire for generations. The father of Elizabeth, John Curtis, was a Quaker, who, along with Thomas and Mary Foulke, was excommunicated in 1668 for absence from the public worship. His father Thomas Curtis was the Registrar of North Wingfield, who publicized the marriage of Thomas Foulke to Mary Richardson on November 14, 1654, so there were several Foulke/Curtis links spanning generations in Derbyshire, and continuing in Burlington County, New Jersey, where both of these families eventually immigrated to.

I have checked out the family tree of the Foulke family genealogist Isabel Howton (1920-2003) here on Geni, and she most certainly descended from my immigrant ancestor Thomas Foulke (1624-1714), and of course his parents Thomas and Dorothy Fouke. However, she was not descended from the genealogist and author Alfred Rudulph Justice (1857-1932), who descended from Thomas Foulke from a different line, so I do not think that she got Foulke research notes from his family.
Somehow, independently, it looks as though she had information on Thomas Fouke of Codnor, whom she stated was born in 1571, and William Ffolke who married Ellen Georlas 1551 (another date of hers), and was looking for more information on them. This was in 1985, and I do not know if she found our more about them before her passing in 2003.
She was also looking for information about John Folke, d. 1570 in Wales, residence Rye, England. There are several John Folkes in that Dwnn pedigree of the Haverfordwest Ffolk family, and I have found two Ryes in England, in Hampshire and East Sussex. If John Folkes were originally from South Wales he would have settled in
England several generations before Thomas of Codnor, Derbyshire by 1616, and there would be precedent for a Ffolk from South Wales to move to England. Her final query in 1985 was for "any data on Richard Ffolke, b ca 1500?". By this, she had to mean Richard Ffolk, first Mayor of Haverfordwest in the reign of King Henry VII (1485-1509). She certainly knew which Ffolks she was looking for, and I would be very interested to know how did and what made Isabel Howton pick this Haverfordwest Ffolk family in the first place, to attempt to obtain more information on, unless she found out somehow that they were our ancestors/relatives.

Link for reading

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en/download/TheHistoryofHaverfordwes...

Thank You Erica, if I am reading this correctly, Richard "Ffulk" would have been the Mayor of Haverfordwest from 1479-1490, when Thomas Browne succeeded him, which does take us into the reign of Henry VII, commencing in 1485.

Also in the link that Erica posted today, is a section on the "House of Picton". Right now, I do not know how much is fact and how much is fiction in these old accounts, but combining this information with other information that I am finding, it appears that George Ffolk, the grandson of Richard Ffolk, first Mayor of Haverfordwest, married into the Warren family, which had Picton ancestry.
I mention this because Erica's link states that Picton Castle, the ancestral home to the House of Picton, was obtained by a Norman knight, William de Picton, who besieged and took it during the reign of William Rufus (1087-1100). William de Picton was a follower of Arnulph de Montgomery, the first Norman invader of Pembrokeshire.
As I stated before, I have no idea if this Picton origin story is a fantasy or not. If it is valid, it would give the Ffolk family a link to the earliest Norman invasion of Pembrokeshire, and I might as well add this to the "fantasy", suppose a "Fulco," or whoever, was a soldier in that Norman invading army, and was the ancestor of the Haverfordwest Folk family?

Getting back closer to reality, today my English colleague found the 1606 will of a Thomas "Folke", at National Archives SD/1606/30, Diocese St. Davids, Parish Eglwys Gymyn, Llanddowror, Carmarthenshire. We are now in the time of Thomas Ffolk 1591 (Thomas of Codnor by 1616?) and the location is within 20 miles of the Ffolk family of Haverfordwest.
Additionally, I found a "William Phulk" of Cardigan named as a witness in three 1597 title confirmation and land grant documents. A "WILLm PHULK" appears to be the author of the Aug. 17, 1591 pedigree of the Haverfordwest Ffolk family, on page 87 of the Heraldic Visitations of Wales etc. work by Lewys Dwnn, Vol. 1.

In that Ffolk pedigree of Dwnn's Visitations of Wales, John Ffolk, brother of George Ffolk who married into the Warren family , was of "Kastell Meurig", which is just south of the village of Llangadog, Carmarthenshire, and he had two sons. The will of Thomas Folke in 1606 has him in Carmarthenshire also, and Peter Bartrum has the above George Ffolk who married into the Warren family as of Aberteifi (Cardigan), as William Phulk was, who authored the Ffolk pedigree, so it looks as if these Ffolk, Folke, and Phulk families of South Wales are all related to each other.

As far as to why Thomas Fouke of Codnor, if he was the same as Tomas Ffolk 1591 in South Wales, would have come to England, at this time Derbyshire was still partly a forest wilderness, yet to be cleared. At the extreme end of circumstances, he may have committed manslaughter or been a horse thief seeking sanctuary (so much for an illustrious Folk pedigree). More likely, he may have been a nonconformist (his son Thomas Foulke (1624-1714) certainly was), and at the end of the 16th century, though the Quakers did not exist yet, the Brownists, as an example, affected the areas around Bakewell and Chesterfield in Derbyshire, according to the 1977 Ph.D. thesis by Helen Forde, "Derbyshire Quakers 1650-1761", page iv, citing J.C. Cox, "Three Centuries of Derbyshire Annals", Vol. 1, p. 318.

The Heanor, Derbyshire parish register also records the burial of an "Anna" Fouke, wife of Thomas Fouke, at the Church of St. Lawrence on Aug. 8, 1616, where Thomas Fouke of Codnor married Dorothy Cham less than three months later, on October 30. Several other Foulke researchers believe this to be the same Thomas Fouke, who, if born in 1571, would have been a middle-aged widower at the time of his marriage to Dorothy Cham in 1616.

Holding a lay church office, if this is Thomas Fouke of Codnor who married Dorothy Cham in 1616, a Thomas Fowke was listed as a substitute churchwarden for the Church of St. Lawrence in Heanor, representing Codnor and Loscoe, in 1613. Some nonconformists, if Thomas Fouke was one, never entirely separated from the Church of England. For example, Robert Browne, the founder of the Brownist group of English Dissenters, which affected areas of Derbyshire when Thomas Fouke was young, actually went back to the Church of England and became a parish priest.