Go Ask Alice

How many Thomas Felton’s were there?

There is no support for her as a daughter of Sir Henry Felton, MP, 2nd Baronet

A baronet’s daughter would not have gone unnoticed as such in Colonial Virginia.

I've only been able to find the one Thomas Felton, and his father's name was Robert Feltham, vintner, of Southwark. (Feltham was married twice, and his second wife was a widow. Not sure which wife was Thomas' mother - probably first wife.)

Early Virginia was absolutely crawling with Lees and Leas, and a lot of them were named William.

Here is the REAL Alice Felton who married William (Constable) Lee:

As you all know I have been dealing with this stuff for decades. Perhaps this will help?

There are no known sources, as of yet, that document Alice Felton Lee's parentage. There are sources and documentation proving that she was the wife/widow of Thomas Felton, who owned land next to property owned by William Lee. There are records proving that Alice Felton (widow of Thomas Felton) married William Lee, and the land she inherited that was adjacent to William Lee property, was sold to Heath (whom daughter Mary Lee married - 1st marriage, prior to Schriever).

Many have tried to make her BOTH wife and daughter of Thomas the Baron!!!! :D shocking, She was not of course:

According to A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Extinct and Dormant Baronetcies ...
By John Burke, Bernard Burke, page 193, and Complete Baronetage: English baronetcies, 1611-1625 and Irish, 1618-1625, page 155, and Synopsis of the Extinct Baronetage of England: Containing the Date of the Creation, with the Succession of Baronets, and Their Respective Marriages and the Time of Death, By William John Courthope, page 76 - there are no mentions of a daughter Alice, nor going to Virginia Colony in America to birth this child. Alice Felton Lee is not a daughter of Henry Felton, thus she acquired the Felton surname as the widow of Thomas Felton, per citations, prior to her marriage to William Lee.
Fact is that here the father and siblings born in England, as well as died in England - so not likely that Alice Felton, who was born in Virginia and married William Lee, was of this family.

(I have to c & p sorry)

Alice was born in 1650 VA (parents unknown). Alice Felton married William Constable Lee in 1675 Northumberland, VA after her FIRST MARRIAGE to Thomas Felton abt 1663. She passed away Sep.1703 in St Stephen, King Queen, VA.
Her first marriage was to Thomas Felton: U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900
Name Alice Lee
Gender Female
Spouse Name Thomas Felton
Source number: 1082.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Number of Pages: 1; Submitter Code: ROH.
After she was widowed, she married William Lee: Year 1675 U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900
William Lee
Gender Male
Birth Year 1650
Spouse Name Alice
Marriage Year 1675
Source number: 915.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Number of Pages: 1; Submitter Code: RRM
Note: Indenture between Wm. Lea & his wife Alice, and Wm. Heath, planter, of Southwarke Par., Surry Co., for a parcel of land, 150 acres, formerly Thos. Felton's deceased... called Upper Chippoakes in the woods adj. the land which was John Harrye's unto the plantation formerly Robert Moseley's adj. a great swamp which divides Surry Co. and Charles Cittye County, which land was given by sd Thos. Felton in last will & test. to his wife Alice who is now the wife of sd William Lea. Memo. 150 acres lies in Charles Cittye County, adjoining the rest of the divident, which lies in Surry County. Wit: Robert Spencer, John Gittings.
Children
Mary (Heath) Lee, Richard Henry Lee, John Lee, William II Lee
Research Notes
Dr. James Lawler GEDcom -
Facts on Alice Felton Lee: Alice FELTON was born in 1650 in Richmond, Co, Va. She was christened in Widow, Thomas, Felton, Charles City. She died about 1703 in St Stephen Parsh, King And Queen, Co, Va. She married William LEE in 1675 in , Northumberland, Va. Rootsweb
Thomas Felton owned land next to William Lee, then after his death William sold the land. If William married Thomas' widow Alice (Mrs. Alice Felton) then he would be in charge of selling it for her. Indenture between Wm. Lea & his wife Alice, and Wm. Heath, planter, of Southwarke Par., Surry Co., for a parcel of land, 150 acres, formerly Thos. Felton's deceased... called Upper Chippoakes in the woods adj. the land which was John Harrye's unto the plantation formerly Robert Moseley's adj. a great swamp which divides Surry Co. and Charles Cittye County, which land was given by sd Thos. Felton in last will & test. to his wife Alice who is now the wife of sd William Lea. Memo. 150 acres lies in Charles Cittye County, adjoining the rest of the divident, which lies in Surry County. Wit: Robert Spencer, John Gittings.
Born in Virginia, USA on 1655. Alice Felton married William Lee and had 3 children. She passed away on Sep 1703 in Virginia, USA.
Sources

William Lee (Lea) owns land next to Thomas Felton:
Source: "Cavaliers and Pioneers" abstracts of Virginia Land Patents and Grants 1623-1666,by Nell Marion Nugent (Virginia Land Office- Richmond,VA).....THOMAS FELTON, 150 acs. Chas. City Co., 6 Feb 1654, p. 322. On S. side of James Riv. & W. side of an Indian Swanp called Ohoreek; beg. at his own plantation, running along Mr. Leas line &c. Trans. of 3 pers: Joan Binge, William Walker, Dorothy Upton.... WILLIAM LEA, 500 acs. Chas. City Co.,6 Feb 1654, p. 322. On S. Side of James Riv. & W. side of an Indian Swamp called Ohoreek: beg. opposite plantation of Thomas Felton. Trans. of 10 pers: John Trediskin, John Aires, Bertrum Obert, Thomas Austen, his wife, John Austin, Richard Austin, Edward Golbourn, Jane Glinn, william Lea........
Thomas Felton's land goes to William Lee (Lea):
Source: "Early Virginia Families Along the James River- Their Deep Roots and Tangled Branches" James City County- Surry County Virginia by Louise Pledge Heath Foley, Vol. III.......
Mary Curry, daughter of Micum (?)Curry, dec'd., 250 acs. being one-half of a parcel of land granted sd. Curry & Jno, Rutherford, Chas. City Co., 5 Mar 1663, p. 360 (387). Beg. on W. most side of a swamp that parts Chas. City Co., & Surry Co., opposite to THO. FELTONs plantation, thence N.W. by W. &c. Granted to WM. LEE 6 Feb 1654 & sold to sd. Curry as by patent 17 Mar 1659 & now renewed......
William and Alice Lee sold land to William Heath (possible same as daughter Mary Lee married):
Source: Surry County Records (Surry County, Virginia 1652-1684) , by Eliza Timberlake. Davis, Genealogical Publishing CO., Inc. Baltimore 1980; page 36
Source: Surry Book I, 1652-1672, page 161 (NOTE: this page very beautifully decorated at left corner top, and down left side in basketry, done with pen and ink, the script also very beautiful - E.T.D.)
10 Nov. 1660,Indenture between Wm. Lea & his wife Alice, and Wm. Heath, planter, of Southwarke Par., Surry Co., for a parcel of land, 150 acres, formerly Thos. Felton's deceased... called Upper Chippoakes in the woods adj. the land which was John Harrye's unto the plantation formerly Robert Moseley's adj. a great swamp which divides Surry Co. and Charles Cittye County, which land was given by sd Thos. Felton in last will & test. to his wife Alice who is now the wife of sd William Lea. Memo. 150 acres lies in Charles Cittye County, adjoining the rest of the divident, which lies in Surry County.Wit: Robert Spencer, John Gittings
* PLEASE NOTE: Alice Felton, wife of William Lee, was the WIDOW of Thomas Felton - See: Surry County Records, Surry County, Virginia, 1652-1684 By Eliza Timberlake Davis,] Google books
American Genealogical-Biographical Index (AGBI)
Name Alice Lee Birth Date (-), 1650 Volume 102 Page number 133 Reference Gen. Column of the " Boston Transcript". 1906-1941.( The greatest single source of material for gen. Data for the N.E. area and for the period 1600-1800. Completely indexed in the Index.): 12 Feb 1930, 9666

Alice was born in 1650 VA (parents unknown). Alice Felton married William Constable Lee in 1675 Northumberland, VA after her FIRST MARRIAGE to Thomas Felton abt 1663. She passed away Sep.1703 in St Stephen, King Queen, VA.
Her first marriage was to Thomas Felton: U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900
Name Alice Lee
Gender Female
Spouse Name Thomas Felton
Source number: 1082.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Number of Pages: 1; Submitter Code: ROH.
After she was widowed, she married William Lee: Year 1675 U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900
William Lee
Gender Male
Birth Year 1650
Spouse Name Alice
Marriage Year 1675
Source number: 915.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Number of Pages: 1; Submitter Code: RRM
Note: Indenture between Wm. Lea & his wife Alice, and Wm. Heath, planter, of Southwarke Par., Surry Co., for a parcel of land, 150 acres, formerly Thos. Felton's deceased... called Upper Chippoakes in the woods adj. the land which was John Harrye's unto the plantation formerly Robert Moseley's adj. a great swamp which divides Surry Co. and Charles Cittye County, which land was given by sd Thos. Felton in last will & test. to his wife Alice who is now the wife of sd William Lea. Memo. 150 acres lies in Charles Cittye County, adjoining the rest of the divident, which lies in Surry County. Wit: Robert Spencer, John Gittings.
Children
Mary (Heath) Lee, Richard Henry Lee, John Lee, William II Lee
Research Notes
From Dr. James Lawler GEDcom -
Facts on Alice Felton Lee: Alice FELTON was born in 1650 in Richmond, Co, Va. She was christened in Widow, Thomas, Felton, Charles City. She died about 1703 in St Stephen Parsh, King And Queen, Co, Va. She married William LEE in 1675 in , Northumberland, Va. Rootsweb

Thomas Felton owned land next to William Lee, then after his death William sold the land. If William married Thomas' widow Alice (Mrs. Alice Felton) then he would be in charge of selling it for her. Indenture between Wm. Lea & his wife Alice, and Wm. Heath, planter, of Southwarke Par., Surry Co., for a parcel of land, 150 acres, formerly Thos. Felton's deceased... called Upper Chippoakes in the woods adj. the land which was John Harrye's unto the plantation formerly Robert Moseley's adj. a great swamp which divides Surry Co. and Charles Cittye County, which land was given by sd Thos. Felton in last will & test. to his wife Alice who is now the wife of sd William Lea. Memo. 150 acres lies in Charles Cittye County, adjoining the rest of the divident, which lies in Surry County. Wit: Robert Spencer, John Gittings.
***
Born in Virginia, USA on 1655. Alice Felton married William Lee and had 3 children. She passed away on Sep 1703 in Virginia, USA.
Sources

William Lee (Lea) owns land next to Thomas Felton:
Source: "Cavaliers and Pioneers" abstracts of Virginia Land Patents and Grants 1623-1666,by Nell Marion Nugent (Virginia Land Office- Richmond,VA).....THOMAS FELTON, 150 acs. Chas. City Co., 6 Feb 1654, p. 322. On S. side of James Riv. & W. side of an Indian Swanp called Ohoreek; beg. at his own plantation, running along Mr. Leas line &c. Trans. of 3 pers: Joan Binge, William Walker, Dorothy Upton.... WILLIAM LEA, 500 acs. Chas. City Co.,6 Feb 1654, p. 322. On S. Side of James Riv. & W. side of an Indian Swamp called Ohoreek: beg. opposite plantation of Thomas Felton. Trans. of 10 pers: John Trediskin, John Aires, Bertrum Obert, Thomas Austen, his wife, John Austin, Richard Austin, Edward Golbourn, Jane Glinn, william Lea........
Thomas Felton's land goes to William Lee (Lea):

Source: "Early Virginia Families Along the James River- Their Deep Roots and Tangled Branches" James City County- Surry County Virginia by Louise Pledge Heath Foley, Vol. III.......
Mary Curry, daughter of Micum (?)Curry, dec'd., 250 acs. being one-half of a parcel of land granted sd. Curry & Jno, Rutherford, Chas. City Co., 5 Mar 1663, p. 360 (387). Beg. on W. most side of a swamp that parts Chas. City Co., & Surry Co., opposite to THO. FELTONs plantation, thence N.W. by W. &c. Granted to WM. LEE 6 Feb 1654 & sold to sd. Curry as by patent 17 Mar 1659 & now renewed......

William and Alice Lee sold land to William Heath (Dau. Mary Lee married): these lands were later part of suit when sons took uncle RHLee back to court to regain their inheritance that RHLee had taken from sister because of her 2nd husbands (shriever)mishandling of estate.

Source: Surry County Records (Surry County, Virginia 1652-1684) , by Eliza Timberlake. Davis, Genealogical Publishing CO., Inc. Baltimore 1980; page 36
Source: Surry Book I, 1652-1672, page 161 (NOTE: this page very beautifully decorated at left corner top, and down left side in basketry, done with pen and ink, the script also very beautiful - E.T.D.)

10 Nov. 1660,Indenture between Wm. Lea & his wife Alice, and Wm. Heath, planter, of Southwarke Par., Surry Co., for a parcel of land, 150 acres, formerly Thos. Felton's deceased... called Upper Chippoakes in the woods adj. the land which was John Harrye's unto the plantation formerly Robert Moseley's adj. a great swamp which divides Surry Co. and Charles Cittye County, which land was given by sd Thos. Felton in last will & test. to his wife Alice who is now the wife of sd William Lea. Memo. 150 acres lies in Charles Cittye County, adjoining the rest of the divident, which lies in Surry County.Wit: Robert Spencer, John Gittings
* PLEASE NOTE: Alice Felton, wife of William Lee, was the WIDOW of Thomas Felton - See: Surry County Records, Surry County, Virginia, 1652-1684 By Eliza Timberlake Davis,] Google books
American Genealogical-Biographical Index (AGBI)
Name Alice Lee Birth Date (-), 1650 Volume 102 Page number 133 Reference Gen. Column of the " Boston Transcript". 1906-1941.( The greatest single source of material for gen. Data for the N.E. area and for the period 1600-1800. Completely indexed in the Index.): 12 Feb 1930, 9666

Another Wall Of Text, but it goes haywire at the very start. You can have Alice widow of Thomas Felton married A William Lea NOT of THE Lees, or you can have Alice unknown, possibly widow of unknown, married William Constable Lee.

YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH.

Thomas Felton who bought land in Upper Chippokes and had a wife Alice *was dead before 1660*. Alice had *remarried* by 1660 to a William Lea (always spelled with an A) who cannot possibly have been the same person as William Constable Lee (because William C was NINE YEARS OLD in 1660).

Where do you want to split the baby?

Maven I have to c & p I am disabled and it is a lot of GOOD and accurate info. Please relax.

I did not mean to post twice my mistake. I am trying to help you all out as you chase your tails - the Lee's are hard and if you are not familiar easily confusing.

Just thought I would try again to share what I have already gathered from ALL sources, which nothing is dishonest but what is out there. The citations are accurate.

And the Lee "Lea" was a common soundex enumerator spelling. You should know that, it happens to many surnames on historic records.

And to add that here on Geni, as well as other genealogy and DNA sites, we Lee cousins have DNA verification on how the line descends. This also includes the English Lee line matches.

I am also using this data to confirm lines.

I am not including any of he Lee Y-DNA in that remark because the ones ran by Dennis Lee that state they have the Y-DNA for the LOV lines are not valid because all of which is not verifiable. I am speaking of Lee descendants internationally participating here (and elsewhere) who have updated dna to Geni, FTDNA, 23andMe, myHeritage, ancestry.com and primarily on GEDMatch, which all can be publicly verified as well as pin point the most common ancestor(s) by generations.

I will try again with the sources:

Source: "Cavaliers and Pioneers" by Nell Marion Nugent:

William Lee (Lea) owns land next to Thomas Felton: Source: "Cavaliers and Pioneers" abstracts of Virginia Land Patents and Grants 1623-1666,by Nell Marion Nugent (Virginia Land Office- Richmond,VA).....THOMAS FELTON, 150 acs. Chas. City Co., 6 Feb 1654, p. 322. On S. side of James Riv. & W. side of an Indian Swanp called Ohoreek; beg. at his own plantation, running along Mr. Leas line &c. Trans. of 3 pers: Joan Binge, William Walker, Dorothy Upton.... WILLIAM LEA, 500 acs. Chas. City Co.,6 Feb 1654, p. 322. On S. Side of James Riv. & W. side of an Indian Swamp called Ohoreek: beg. opposite plantation of Thomas Felton. Trans. of 10 pers: John Trediskin, John Aires, Bertrum Obert, Thomas Austen, his wife, John Austin, Richard Austin, Edward Golbourn, Jane Glinn, william Lea..

Source: "Early Virginia Families Along the James River- Their Deep Roots and Tangled Branches" Vol. III, by Louise Pledge Heath Foley :

Thomas Felton's land goes to William Lee (Lea): Source: "Early Virginia Families Along the James River- Their Deep Roots and Tangled Branches" James City County- Surry County Virginia by Louise Pledge Heath Foley, Vol. III....... Mary Curry, daughter of Micum (?)Curry, dec'd., 250 acs. being one-half of a parcel of land granted sd. Curry & Jno, Rutherford, Chas. City Co., 5 Mar 1663, p. 360 (387). Beg. on W. most side of a swamp that parts Chas. City Co., & Surry Co., opposite to THO. FELTONs plantation, thence N.W. by W. &c. Granted to WM. LEE 6 Feb 1654 & sold to sd. Curry as by patent 17 Mar 1659 & now renewed....

Source: Marriages of some Virginia Residents 1607- 1800, Volume I and II: Volume I: Surnames A-H, Felton, Alice (__)m. William Lea Volume II: Surnames I-Z, Lea, William m. bef. 10 Nov.,1660, Alice (__) Felton, widow of Thomas, Surry Co. Book I, p. 161, proves it.------------ Personal Note: Notice the Lea spelling instead of Lee - common enumerator error.

U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900 William Lee Gender Male Birth Year 1650 Spouse Name Alice Marriage Year 1675 Source number: 915.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Number of Pages: 1; Submitter Code: RRM. Birth date: 1650 Birth place: Marriage date: 1675 Marriage place:

William and Alice Lee sell plantation to Thomas Adams: Documentation from "Log Cabins to White House" by Brewer. On page 275 ": On 19 Jan 1668 William and wife Alice acknowledged debt of 250 acres of land to William Heath (can be traced to da. husband Thos. Heath). On 5 Sep 1668 William and wife Alice sold their plantation to Thomas Adams (Surry Co. records p.54).

William's daughter Mary Lee: William and Mary College quarterly historical magazine, Volume 9, page 274. - Caroline Jett wrote in her article "In the Shadow of the Chicacoan Oak": "It was in the 1680’s that Thomas Heath came to Northumberland County. As he died soon after arriving there, the folks of Northumberland County knew little about him. His wife was Mary, and much effort has been made to discover her maiden name. Some believe that she was the daughter of Captain William Lee (son of Richard Lee.) However, as no clear evidence or proof that she was Captain Lee’s daughter has ever been discovered, the Society of Lees of Virginia will not accept her descendants as members. Whether she was his daughter or not, she definitely was the executor of Capt. Lee’s estate."

More recent research and documentation has confirmed that William Lee and Alice Felton did have four children, Mary Lee Heath Schriever being their daughter. The court records verify that their sons did eventually have their day in court and were awarded monies and land from their uncle, Richard Henry Lee, years after the court battle, when they were not yet of adult age, where their uncle had taken their inheritance from their sister Mary's husband, Bart Schriever. This was the same land adjacent which once had belonged to Thomas Felton, then ALice Felton, then sold to William Heath same family of their daughter Mary Lee's 1st husband.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Because of the fluid county lines of that time, Surry Virginia, King and Queen County, then came to become Nansemond, and Johnston County, NC.

Chronology:

c. 1651: William "Constable" Lee born, fifth son of Col. Richard Lee.

6 Feb 1654: Thomas Felton buys 150 acres in Surry County. William LeA buys 500 acres in Charles City County. William C LeE is three years old.

Before 1660: Thomas Felton dies. William C. Lee is not even ten years old.

"Before 10 Nov 1660" (date from your citation): Alice widow Felton marries William LeA. William C. LeE is still not even ten years old.

There are several other records of this William LeA in the 1660s, including he and Alice jointly selling a mare to one Thomas Busby (who happened to be Indian interpreter for the Crown, which is not directly relevant to the transaction). And even by 1668, William C. Lee is at most seventeen years old.

QED: William C. LeE is not and cannot possibly be the same person as William LeA.

If it's any consolation,which it probably isn't, he can't be the father of William Lee of Ulster (born c. 1680 and I'm back to thinking "in Ireland") either.

"He" = that dratted William LeA. Just to clarify.

He is "circa' so it could fit. Again birth/death dates are estimates not exact -

but the descendants DNA are lining up. My William C Lee line matches up to other William Lee and Alice Felton descendants who descends from his other children's lines, including his son Richard Henry Lee nicely on all other genealogy sites because my line is attached, here it is detached because of a bogus DNA project(s) false claims, if it was you all could see my smart matches to my 3rd/4th cousins (male Lee direct lines from William Lee through R H Lee's children) at my ancestor John Lee, Esquire, Richard Henry Lee son of William C and Alice's son.

Many of these cousins do have trees and their DNA on Geni also, BTW.

I am sure they have an interested in this all be correct as most of us do. IMO.

Geni could get more participation if they let us actually work on our ancestors and fix things instead of discouraging else or locking the profile.

Outcome genealogy is not the way genealogy works and is not real genealogy and too many sites are using the mob rule now, it is really unfair. Again, IMO.

Jacqueli, the only way it "fits" is if William C. and/or Alice were time travelers. It is just *not possible* to "circa" William C. Lee's birth back before his parents ever met. *Which you would have to do*, to have him buying land in 1660.

There is just not that much wiggle room here - maybe *one* year either way (1650-1652) at most. It doesn't help.

The marriage cert gives his birth abt 1650, there is not an exact date. He would have been 25.

U.S. and International Marriage Records, 1560-1900 William Lee Gender Male Birth Year 1650 Spouse Name Alice Marriage Year 1675 Source number: 915.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Number of Pages: 1; Submitter Code: RRM. Birth date: 1650 Birth place: Marriage date: 1675 Marriage place:

Alice may have been older than William and she may have been a widow for a while.

But I have followed the lands even with the fluidity of the time, as Va, Ky, Tenn, etc., were all one big territory at one time divided and sub-divided, named and re-name. And if you follow the land to his son's Richard Henry Lee and John (I recall son William Jr took the money no land in court battle w/ uncle R H Lee) and it makes sense. They did acquire more land indeed, the sons, but did not move about as much as others assume, it was the land divisions that keep moving.

IDK about the land date though I provided the source.

The land sold to Heath is where I made the connection, that area adjacent is where Wm and Alice also acquired property - it would make sense that their dau would settle with a neighbor too. That land Alice had inherited from Thos. Felton.

Your "bogus DNA project(s) false claims" insults not only researchers into the various Lee lines, but also researchers into the Lincoln, Hanks, and LaFollette lines. It was Hanks mtDNA results that caused the situation you are complaining about.

William Constable Lee would have been 25 in 1654? Or 1660? Or 1668? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

The land dates *are found with the original deed records*. You provided some of them yourself, but you did not realize - or did not want to realize - the implications.

Unfortunately there is no record of Thomas Felton and Alice having a daughter Alice - which might be the only way to resolve the conundrum without breaking things up. I ran across a mention of a *John* Felton, stated to be the son of Thomas Felton, in 1654: "May 2, 1654: Bond of Robt. Mosley to Jno. Felton. Wit.: John Harris (d. 1687), Sack. Brewster (Crozier Misc. rec. vol. 6, p. 31, 2009). ‘Brewster, Sackford (in Virginia 1655, &c. ), Surry county."

I don't know whether John was Alice's as well as Thomas's, but it and other factors indicate that Thomas was not a young man. Thomas' father is given as Robert Feltham, vintner, of Southwark, London, and implied to have been dead and buried by 1620.

Maven, our dna and trees are lining up with other William Lee descendants all the way to and past Col Richard Lee, so we must be doing something right as these also coincide with DNA from Lee cousins from other lines, especially with descendants of multiple Lee lines.

You can check that, well anyone can, publicly on GEDMatch/Genesis. Even here where the tree is correct. There is enough DNA and Lee descendants now as donors to visibly see the results. I am just saying, DNA does not lie, as even well documented lines can have an NPE.

Actually, William and Thomas Heath don't seem to have been directly related. Possibly they were cousins of some sort, or not. But there was a lot of wheeling and dealing in land in early Virginia, and some places changed hands quite frequently.

The Upper Chippokes area is interesting for other reasons: some of the resident families - Gibsons, Chivers, Busbys, Collins, Sweats and Iveys, among others - are associated with what has become known as "Melungeon" heritage. Particularly the Gibsons. (I think we've got a Gibson on Geni digging into his past!)

My sister is research that area too. Interesting stuff.

'researching' lol

What you don't seem to understand, Jacqueli, is that a Non-Parental Event

BREAKS

THE

LINE.

Once you have a Non-Parental Event, you are NOT descended from the person who was Not-Your-Father.

Speaking of strange Y-DNA events, have you checked FamilyTreeDNA lately? they've got two (only two) Stratford Hall Lee charts, but they are weirdly matched by a "James Jackson, b. Coleraine, Ireland, 1790" and an unidentified "Green" who is even closer.

The Jackson chart probably indicates a split-off somewhere before the founding of America, but the Green chart might well represent somebody sowing his wild oats *in* America.

No further details available, but very perplexing.

The Jacksons of Coleraine have been traced back to Lancashire, probably circa James I/Charles I. But where they came from before that...?

Seven mismatches at 111 markers puts the branch-off *after* Bad King John but probably *before* the Tudors.

As for the "Green", whoever he was, one and only *one* mismatch on one of two lines suggests hanky-panky in Colonial America - but DNA can't tell you who, where, or when.

Should have mentioned that's at 67 markers, which is not quite as precise as 111. There's no guarantee there wouldn't be more mismatches with more markers.

The really beautiful thing is that DNA knows no race or color.

I know of cousins now that are Lee's of the LOV lines who are of African American, Native American descent and so grateful some have donated their DNA to GEDMatch as well.

GEDMatch works with autosomal DNA, which has fairly stringent limits (not reliably accurate to more than 5-7 generations, does not differentiate between male, female and mixed descent lines, does not prove straight gender-line descent, and sometimes points off in unexpected directions, or misses what "should" be there).

You can find "cousins" that way, but it can be very hard to sort out who is related to whom by what path - especially with no paper trail or, worse, a bad one.

You may *think* you've found someone who's a cousin by way of Joe from Kokomo, but when the paper trails are analyzed, you're actually related by way of Jane from Maine. (That's when there *is* a reliable paper trail - in the worst-case scenario, you're related but you'll never know how.)

That is not true - there are At donors that have donated their Y-DNA also and we can triangulate, run reports, pinpoint generation of MRCA and then there are the well sourced trees to compare matches, etc, more well documented matching trees than not .... and then opening the arena to the UK Lee Surname database for YDNA collected.

And when triangulated (especially taking the donor kits from several LOV descents) you can take those cousin connections up to 8 generations with accuracy. And there are plenty all male Lee descendants in this mix who have their Y-DNA haplogroups in the mix.

I find it hard to phantom throwing GEDMatch and Genesis under the bus.

No one is guessing with the results, just fact base DNA results on GEDMatch with accuracy. All the speculations and interpretations are what is confusing the findings as it seems pretty straight forward, and would make sense, that the MAJORITY of Lee's that were told they were not Lee's of LOV lines really is looking like they are.

There needs to be a MAJOR shift in ATTITUDE to Lee descendants - IMO - a little less opinionated pre-judgements and more open-mindedness instead of the same old rhetoric.

You're overselling what autosomal DNA is and what it can do. Just like the companies that push it.

If it really were *that* accurate, there wouldn't be so many sensationalistic stories about "identical twins" whose autosomal results "don't match".

Even 8 generations of accuracy is still far short of the 12-13 generations you need - and any results will only be as good as the paper trails submitted. Bad paper trails, and there are many, *many* of them = Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Let's get back to Topic A (Alice). The Alice who was the widow of Thomas Felton and the wife of William Lea - *by 1660* - is *too early* to have been the wife of William Constable Lee or the mother of *anyone* in the 1680s.

William Lea is not the same person as William Constable Lee - that's just a flat impossibility.

And if William Constable Lee married an Alice - she wasn't the widow of Thomas Felton.

(And if William Constable Lee *did* have sons, they would have carried his family's I-M253 haplotype, and would not have had more than about 3-5 mismatches to extant tests. They would *not* have been R-M259. It. Does. Not. Work. That. Way.)