Continuing With This Work

Started by Private User on Sunday, July 21, 2019
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Private User
7/21/2019 at 8:13 AM

Dear Project Members,

I feel that the indexing of the Third Edition for GENI as has been already started for Volumes 1 and 2, is a valuable use of resources. The problem is obtaining the text, which is expensive. If a few persons in the project are willing to purchase Volumes 3 and 4 and then distribute individual chapters to volunteer for this project, I would be glad to help both financially and as an indexer. This is a 'feeler' discussion: if you want to collaborate on this please reply here.

Adam Cherson

7/21/2019 at 8:59 AM

Hi Adam,

I would be very interested in participating in the indexing of the 3rd edition of the book. I own a copy of Volume 3, and my close family is in Chapter 8 of Volume 3. Although I'd like to help with other Chapters, I'd particularly be interested in taking responsibility for Chapter 8, because there are some small errors specific to my family in there that others wouldn't know about, which I could correct.

However, I do have some questions about this project. First off, it is my understanding that the 1st two volumes of the 3rd edition have not actually been indexed here yet. If I follow the project link that says 'The Unbroken Chain, by Dr. Neil Rosenstein', the link takes me to what appears to be the index for the 2 Volume, 2nd edition of the book rather than the index for the first 2 volumes of the 3rd edition. Please let me know if I've misunderstood, or if I'm missing the correct link. I do not personally own volume 1 or 2 of the 3rd edition, but I do own a copy of volume 3.

My 2nd question is about the process you proposed, which would involve the copying and distribution of individual chapters of the book to others working on this project. I want to know if that is how the project was carried out for the 2nd edition and whether we would have Neil Rosenstein's permission to do that.



Private User
7/21/2019 at 9:20 AM

Dear Claudia,

You are correct. The indexing work already done is for the 2nd Edition. I don't know what the project administrators want to do vis a vis the 3rd Edition.

Perhaps the thing to do is begin a new project dedicated to the 3rd Edition and begin that project with Volume 3.

I don't know how the prior work was carried out and I don't know whether it would be necessary to obtain the copyright holder's approval.

I guess what I would do now is wait to see if any of the project administrators here chime in with their thoughts on whether this is something worth pursuing.

Be Well,

7/21/2019 at 9:58 AM

Adam, thanks for the clarification about the indexing. I wasn't involved in the prior work either, so its a bit hazy to me. In the meanwhile, you've inspired me to be a bit pro-active, I'm going to start working with Chapter 8 of the book and re-visit some of the profiles that are already in Geni which may need to be updated with new information from the 3rd edition.

7/24/2019 at 7:00 PM

Private User,

I'm currently working my way through Chapter 4 and am currently adding and verifying Branch C. I have already completed all of Volume 1.

That project for the second edition is not complete. I'm not even looking at it at this time as I'm more concerned with getting the third edition entered into Geni. Chapters 14 to 18 will make up the 5th and final volume.

Claudia Bullock,

Don't even think of copying it and distributing it to others, so that they can enter it her on Geni.

Go ahead and work on updating Geni with Chapter 8, but remember that chapter includes the author Private User.

I will end up going over the work that you have done to make sure that the profiles are in the correct projects and that the family information is correct.


7/24/2019 at 7:01 PM

Claudia Bullock,

What you want to do is illegal and will get you in trouble.

7/24/2019 at 7:19 PM

Kevin Lawrence Hanit, I certainly have no intention of doing anything illegal and, have absolutely no intention of copying and distributing anything. It was not my suggestion, and I was questioning the suggestion because I did not think it was something that would be allowed. Maybe it wasn't clear about that, because you totally misunderstood what I was saying.

7/24/2019 at 7:58 PM

@Kevin Lawrence Hanit, I need to tell you about an error in Geni that I have run into right off the bat that I need your help with regarding the profile for Joel Ashkenazi-Katzenellenbogen: R' Joel Ashkenazi-Katzenellenbogen

The problem is that the Rabbi Joel's father has been listed as a Moses who was a brother of the Meir of Padua, but this is the wrong Moses. The correct one is HaChaver Moses of Neustadt, and he was not a brother to the Meir of Padua. Rabbi Joel Ashkenazi was not born a Katzenellenbogen at all, rather, he took the name Katzenellenbogen when he married into the Katzenellenbogen family (he married the daughter of Samuel Judah Katzenellenbogen). I actually wrote to Neil Rosenstein, and have had him confirm that I'm saying here is correct.

The reason I am bringing this to your attention is that I need your guidance on the best way to fix this problem. Having Rabbi Joel connected to the wrong parents obviously connects him to the wrong set of ancestors. Please advise.


7/25/2019 at 8:28 AM

Claudia Bullock,

Post the correct Moses here and I'll make the change for you.


7/25/2019 at 9:26 AM

There does not seem to be an existing profile on Geni, but the information on Rabbi Joel, from page 332 of Volume 3 says that he was "son of HaChaver R. Moses
of Neustadtl. It also mentions that "the fact that his father had the title of HaChaver and that his surname was Ashkenazi indicates that the family originally came from Germany".

So.... this is the information I have on the one who is the correct father. I did look for an existing profile, but could not find one.



7/25/2019 at 11:41 AM

Claudia Bullock,

I have gone ahead and removed the incorrect set of parents from R' Joel and his brother R' Isaac of Neustadtl. I then added the new and correct Moses as their father.

Any future problems that you encounter, just post them in this discussion and I'll get to them as soon as I can.

If there are any parts of Chapter 8 that you can't enter due to privacy settings, just let me know and I'll help you out.

I've just sent you a request to collaborate and a request to join my family group as both of these will give you access to all of the profiles that I manage including the private ones that I created for "The Unbroken Chain".

Please accept the two requests that I sent you.


7/25/2019 at 12:21 PM

Thanks Kevin,

I went ahead and accepted both requests. When I accepted the invitation to join the family group, I had to answer a yes/no question about whether I was in your family, and I said No, since I don't know if we are related. I'm assuming that collaborators and friends can be added to a family group, so I hope that was the right answer. Let me know if it worked. Thanks!


7/25/2019 at 1:04 PM

Claudia Bullock,

I've resent the family group request as you will need it to be able to view my private profiles.

Just say Yes to to the question.


7/25/2019 at 1:57 PM

Hi Kevin, I saw that I had an outstanding request from you, and this time when I clicked on it to accept request, it didn't ask me any questions, and simply got marked 'accepted'. The only difference was that I didn't link to it from my email. I was already in Geni, and just accepted the outstanding request.

7/25/2019 at 2:35 PM

I've already found another problematic profile that I need to ask you about. There is an Eidel Chajes who is a daughter of Abraham (Joseph Jacob) Ashkenazi:

Eidel Chajes

Now, the problems are as follows:

1) The dates of birth and death can't be right for this Eidel since it says she died in 1587, and the person she was actually married to died 100 years later in 1687.

2) This profile isn't linked to the correct person that Abraham (Joseph Jacob) Ashkenazi's daughter was married to. Thie profile below is the correct person who was actually married to Abraham's daughter Eidel, as per page 333 of Chapter 8, which says his name was R Jacob Isaac Chajes who died in 1687 in Prague, and was the son of R. Eliezer Chajes of Krakow, who died in 1623:

Yitzhak Chajes, ABD Prague, Prossnitz

3) The Eidel Chajes profile that is currently attached to R. Abraham also has some children, whereas Chapter 8 doesn't mention any children at all. Do I assume that none of these are her kids? My thinking is that if it is the wrong husband, then whose kids are these? The fact that the Unbroken Chain doesn't mention them makes me wonder.

So, what do you think the best strategy is for editing this information? I'm sorry that I have to ask so many questions right now. I really do want to get better at this so that I can act more independently and be a help rather than a bother! Thanks!


7/25/2019 at 3:56 PM

Claudia Bullock,

Just update it to match what's in the book.

I have gone ahead and update R' Abraham Josef Jacob Ashkenazi-Katzenellenbogen, A.B.D. Janow and then Lvov to include that he was a Rabbi and that he was A.B.D. Janow and then Lvov.

That is stuff that you need to add there.

In regards to Yitzhak Chajes, ABD Prague, Prossnitz, that doesn't matter.

You are not being a bother at all.


Private User
7/26/2019 at 8:32 AM

Claudia, Thanks for these corrections. I want to double check something about Eidel Chajes. My notes say that UC 2nd Ed, p588 has her as the daughter of R' Joel. Is this an incorrect citation, or has this pedigree been modified in the 3rd edition (to make her the granddaughter of R'Joel)? Thanks.

7/26/2019 at 9:17 AM

Private User,

The second edition is full of errors. The branches listed in Chapter 13 are not directly related to the Katzenellenbogen family.

I have already corrected the ancestry of Chacham Tzvi Hirsch Ashkenazi.

I will try to correct the Zussman family today.


7/26/2019 at 9:57 AM

Thanks for all the work you are doing. If someone needs a volume of the book and cannot afford it, I can try to send one. Just send me a message with your address, phone and what volume you need from the new edition. I have helped Neil with the publication and he is fine with us using the book to correct and add to what is on Geni. Sometimes we also find things that help him, as I did recently with a big Markbeiter/Karplus branch that he was missing.

7/26/2019 at 3:27 PM


Rabbi Joel Ashkenazi-Katzenellenbogen is shown in the 3rd edition as having only 2 children. They are R. Mattityahu Lieberman Katzenellenbogen, and Abraham (Joseph Jacob) Kazenellenbogen.

Abraham (Joseph Jacob) Katzenellenbogen had 4 children, and one of them was an Eidel, who would be Joel's grand-daughter. The Eidel that is attached right now as Abraham's daughter looks a bit off, as I was noticing earlier, so maybe the one who is attached might actually be a different Eidel, because she definitely has the wrong husband attached to her.

Right now, I'm finding that there are some extra children attached to Rabbi Joel and his wife who are not shown in the 3rd edition as being their children. Also, I think there was an extra child for Abraham (Joesph Jacob) who doesn't belong there either.

I am going to carefully try to make corrections in order to reflect what is in the 3rd edition. Was scratching my head a bit with all the discrepancies, but hopefully can make some headway this weekend.


7/26/2019 at 6:30 PM

I have to stop working on the Zussman family for now. Tomorrow, I'm off to Cleveland for the annual IAJGS Conference and won't have the books with me.

I'll be back home on August 2.

Private User
7/27/2019 at 9:38 AM

Randy, Thanks for the generous offer. If there isn't a less onerous way of obtaining the one section of Vol 4 I'd be interested in preparing for GENI, I may take you up on that. Claudia, You're on the case! Kevin, Enjoy a productive conference.

7/29/2019 at 10:26 AM

Private User,

Which Chapter were you looking at working on?


Private User
7/29/2019 at 10:41 AM

Kevin, I would begin with Chapter 11 Section N, and then if time allows proceed from there with the rest of Chapter 11 (Babad Family).
Randy and Kevin, Over the weekend, Claudia and I edited the tree of R' Joel K'bogen and since neither is an expert in how GENI works, we are not sure if we did this correctly. When you have a moment please look at these edits and make sure they conform to your data. In particular, we are concerned that in the course of the mergers and detachments that we may have lost a connection between Eliezer Chayes (Eliezer Chajes, of Cracow) and his pedigree. We are not sure whether there was any such data about his pedigree prior to our work or not (there is nothing about his pedigree on UC 3rd Edition). Thanks, Adam

7/29/2019 at 11:06 AM

Private User,

Be very careful with your merges in that area of the tree.

OK, that sounds good.

8/3/2019 at 3:58 PM

Claudia Bullock & Private User,

When working through the chapter, branch or section that you are doing, please be very careful around profiles that have been last updated by me within the last year. I do work on parts of the tree outside of where I'm actually working in the books. I'm going to finish the last branch of Chapter 13 and then will be going back to Chapter 4, Branch D.


8/3/2019 at 4:27 PM

Thanks, Kevin,

Where do I find the date of the most recent update? I see 'date added', but I'm not seeing a date of the most recent update. Are they the same? Thanks!


8/3/2019 at 4:44 PM

Claudia Bullock,

When you click on a profile in the HTML tree, you will see a box come up on the side of the tree and in it is that information.


Private User
8/3/2019 at 5:25 PM

Kevin, I'll make sure and be extra careful. I'm still trying to get a hold of Ch 11 Sec N without having to find space for another volume on my bulging shelves. Why doesn't the NYPL have the 3rd Edition i wonder.
Good Evening,

8/3/2019 at 6:42 PM

Private User,

I don't know of any other way to get your hands on it without going through Randy.

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