Dale C. Rice Maternal links to English Power Familieshttps://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Ralph-Neville-1st-Earl-of-Westmorland?from=6000000013463839522&path_type=blood&to=6000000001069437500

Henry ‘the writer’ Rice, Esq.

Henry Rice, Esq.

Erica, the Wikipedia article on Henry the Writer states that he was the son of Sir Walter Rice. So I think the Henry Rice mentioned in the Rice Pedigree I cited above, are the same person. I haven't seen any evidence of a Henry Rice fathering another Henry Rice.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/202765?msg=1337178

I've seen the Henry that I discovered here, described as "the Writer" in one or two of the other biographies of this very prominent family. Also,

"It was during the course of the Parliament that [Sir Walter] Rice’s financial problems caught up with him. Outlawed for debt, he was omitted from the Carmarthenshire commission of the peace in September 1607. His financial difficulties may also explain his absence from Westminster in July 1610. On 13 Mar. 1612 Rice passed his Pembrokeshire estates to his eldest son,

Henry, who agreed to pay off his debts, which by now amounted to more than £2,500.32 The list of his creditors included prominent local gentlemen such as Sir Henry Jones of Abermarlais (£400) and his own son-in-law, Thomas Button (£100), as well as several London merchants. It even included the warden of the Fleet (£60), suggesting that Rice had recently been incarcerated for debt. Attempts to remortgage the Pembrokeshire estates seem to have failed, but in 1617 Henry Rice secured a lease of the Crown’s extent, which forced the creditors to an agreement in the following year. Chief among these was Button, who assigned his naval pension to Henry Rice, and agreed to take another of Sir Walter’s sons to sea with him.

In the early 1620s Henry Rice negotiated to marry Mary, a daughter of Sir Thomas Myddleton I*, hoping this alliance would provide £10,000 to help cover his father’s debts.

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/r...

So the wife of Henry Rice (son of Sir Walter Rice), is known.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/202765?msg=1337198

I meant to link this source, the pedigree chart by Lewys Dwnn, pp210-11 (including footnotes).

Its all in the profiles. Collins peerage reported that Henry the writer was the son of Henry the heir. But I just found a description of the estate of Sir Edward Lewis of Van, which has his 6th child Margaret married to Henry, son of Sir Walter, “from whom the Lords Dyvenor.” So Collins was in error.

https://papuraunewydd.llyfrgell.cymru/view/3094682/3094690/67/caradoc

Dale C. Rice

And look here - they have your John Rice as son of Edmund. !!!

So why would you believe this site instead of your own research & Y DNA?

http://www.dkdonovan.com/getperson.php?personID=I46380&tree=Main

So, Henry son of Sir Walter *is* Henry "the Writer", and the "son Henry" was an accidental doubling in the tree, have we got that right now?

I don't think the Button family is directly relevant at this point (unless someone has worked out the ancestry for Dick Button, double gold Olympic figure skating champion and longtime sports commentator and entrepreneur - *that* I should like to hear about, but probably in another thread),

And we still don't know how, or if, all these other Rices related to John Rice of Dedham.

Ms. Erica: Where would you put the son of Tamzin Thomasine Frost Rice? It belongs to a seperate file not the son of Edmund. As I have said since 2011. The fact is the family is torn apart 1638 when Edmund and thomasine leave my John Rice 1638 behind.

Where is the linkage between Griffeth 1627 ca. son of Rhsys ap Gruffed 1508 and Henry Rice of Dynevor? Is Henry the son of Griffeth and brother of Walter? Pleasse answer. This is exactly the reason GENI gets blasted as being a one way street. All family information is discarded instead of being held in Abeyance. You will note that my 8th cousin or First x 8 removed Sheena Hamilton of Wover Hampton is the 7th great grad daughter of Elizabeth Frost Rice Whale. She will take the Family Finder test and then we can say more conclusively if the her markers and mine from Thomasine Frost Rice are the same. Yes?

https://www.geni.com/path/Sir-Walter-Rice+is+related+to+Richard-Pri...

As to my remarks above: Perrot ap Rice of Tenby 1598 4th cousin of John Rice Ancient Planter of virginia and wife Mary took 100 acres on the James River 1621 and both are cousins of Henry Rice of Newton's father . So Kindly stop telling me They are not related because Geni says they are and They would have met Perrot ap Rice and his native woman when they arrived 1639. DCR

Thomasine Frost was the wife of Deacon Edmund Rice. Period end of sentence. John Rice of Dedham is NOT the son of Deacon Edmund Rice (or for that matter Thomasine Frost Rice), period end of sentence. Separate families, separate immigrations, no relationship prior to immigration.

As for connections that developed *after* immigration, that's due to a small gene pool and nobody available from outside it. A marries B; C marries D; next generation A&B's child E marries C&D's child F; and so on. (It gets really really tangled on the lower Eastern Shore, where before very long there was nobody to marry *but* cousins.)

I thought we had had the Dynevor lineage all sorted out: Rhys ap Griffith to Griffith Rice to Sir Walter Rice to Henry "the Writer" Rice. Isn't "1627" a typo for "1527"?

Oh no, not that "Perrot ap Rice goes native" fantasy again! Every time you bring it up, you mangle a different set of known historical facts trying to "prove" it. I really don't see the point of wasting any time on it any longer.

Dale C. Rice

Re: The Dyvenor line

It’s great now thanks to the work done ! Your welcome, Erica !!! Have you studied the tree on Geni? Do you need screenshots or something to make it clearer to you? No one else seems to ...

Re: Thomasine Frost

She was the wife of Edmund Rice, and “you” disproved accurately that your John Rice of Dedham b c 1624 is not of that family.

Henry ‘the writer’ Rice, Esq. is Sir Rhys ap Thomas, K.G., of Dynevor's third great grandson

https://www.geni.com/path/Sir-Rhys-ap-Thomas-K-G-of-Dynevor+is+rela...

I’m very proud of this tree. It was a lot of work.

Does it look like this family got out of alignment?

Gabriel Lewis, Sheriff in 1662

Yes: It's clear now: And I do thank you Erica....It was not clear before I brought it to everyone's attention. My cousin's DNA first x 8 removed should settle the Thomasine and Elizabeth Frost Rice-Whale. Since that's the kind of thing you all seem to resist that thomasine Rice could have had the child John Rice 1624 because of a mishap. Stop being so prudish. People are people no matter their inheritence rights. When I publish my cousin's results that prove sisters have descendant living Children...and I tracked Thomasine Frost Rice to Utah to Senator Orin Hatch's mother you can say whatever ou like. Perrot ap Rice was cousin to John Rice ancient Planter in Virginia and John Rolfe and Pocohauntus set up land/home deal near the John Rice Ancient Planter's holding. You can't even admit when you are wrong when so invested in a point of view. If the DNA does not support me I'll let go but the sons of John Rice Hughes aka Perrot ap Rice are a DNA match at 37/37 and 23/25...Sorry you can't bully the truth any longer on that Questions.

It looks like Margaret Lewis, wife of Henry Rice the writer, was a natural daughter ???

===Notes

From https://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&a...

Illegitimate

*TREDEGAR ESTATE PAPERS (NLW)137/207.
*1634/5, March 11
*1. Katherin Lewis, spinster, one of the reputed dau's of Sir Edward Lewis the elder
*2. William Morgan of the Middle Temple, esq., and Robert Stratford, gent ., his servant
*ACQUITTANCE for the sum of £450, being part of the sum of £900 received of Lady Beuchampe, the administratrix of the goods and chattels of Sir Edward Lewes the younger in accordance with a decree of the Court of Westminster, by which £1,300 was awarded for distribution among Margery Lewes, spinster, and the said Katherin Lewis, the reputed dau's of Sir Edward Lewes the elder. 137/208.
*1634/5, March 11
*1. Margery Lewes, spinster, one of the reputed dau's of Sir Edward Lewes the elder, dec.
*2. William Morgan of the Middle Temple, esq., and Robert Stratford, gent ., his servant
*ACQUITTANCE for the sum of £450, being part of the sum received for distribution among the reputed dau's of Sir Edward Lewes from Lady Beuchampe, the administratrix of the goods and chattels of Sir Edward Lewes the younger (see No. 137/207).

Now that you have proved that Henry Rice the Writer and Heir of Walter Rice of Dynvore that means his sons Edmund, Robert are indeed descendants of Welsh royalty...Remember how you crucified the writer By the Name of Rice MBH? Where's your apology? Oh That's right. Even though Geni shows Edmund 1594 brother to Robert you world view does not allow you to say so....Preponderance of the Evidence now shows Henry Rice son of Walter Rice inherits Title and Lands Proving the Rice's of Edmund Rice are of Royal Welsh Blood.

"John Rice Hughes aka Perrot ap Rice"

is a fantasy.

There never was a "John Rice Hughes".

There was a "Rice Hughes" and a "Rice Hooe", and two or three John Rices/Prices.

They were *all* different people. All of them in Virginia. None of them in Massachusetts.

It's not "prudery" to object to a wild hypothesis that involves multiple trips back and forth across the breadth of England between Wales and East Anglia. It's called logic.

It's perfectly obvious to anyone who has been following your saga why you HAVE to have Perrot ap Rice father John Rice of Dedham - because you HAVE to have Perrot ap Rice fathered by Sir John Perrot so that he can be the grandson of Henry VIII (and John Rice of Dedham his great-grandson).

That's what this is all about, and what it has *always* been about. You just *have to* be a direct male-line descendant of that bloated murderous creep. (You couldn't possibly be satisfied with male/female mixed descent through the Careys or somesuch, oh nooooo....)

Dale, you’ve entirely lost me at:

“Preponderance of the Evidence now shows Henry Rice son of Walter Rice inherits Title and Lands Proving the Rice's of Edmund Rice are of Royal Welsh Blood.”

Aside from the fact that it’s been previously proven you are not related to Edmund Rice, so his ancestry is only marginally relevant to yours, there is no evidence supporting a Welsh origin for Edmund Rice.

There’s really no arguing about it; and I kindly request, once again, you leave it out of your explorations, so you don’t confuse people to whom it might be new.

For them, I direct attention to:

https://www.edmund-rice.org/

If the Geni tree is not sufficient.

Now - can we return to this interesting Henry Rice family? I have questions about the Edward Lewis of Van family.

Oh, I got it. Perhaps Dale is thinking Sir Edward Rice was the same person as Edmund Rice the colonist??

*Whose* "sons Edmund and Robert"? What are you talking about?

Sir Walter Rice had no son EdMUND (EdWARD, yes, but that's not the same name) *or* Robert (no name even *remotely* resembling Robert - there was a Thomas and an Anthony).

Henry Rice "the Writer" IS NOT the Henry Rice who was the presumed brother of Deacon Edmund Rice. And Henry the Writer *could not possibly* have had a son by any name whatsoever in 1594 - he was only eight years old in that year.

Don't know why you're still barking up the sterile dead tree of "Deacon Edmund Rice", when YOUR OWN evidence helped to prove that John Rice of Dedham WAS NOT his son.

As for "royal Welsh ancestry", that and five dollars will get you a cup of coffee at Starbuck's. Just about *everyone* with Welsh ancestry can claim that, and a lot of them can actually prove it.

BUT - just about no one from Wales went to Massachusetts-Bay in the founding years. The vast majority of them, probably including both Rices, came from East Anglia, *clear on the opposite side of England*. So they were more likely Saxon Hrises than Welsh ap Rhyses. Lots of Saxons in East Anglia, little or no Welsh.

The Edmund Rice Association is who claims "By the Name of Rice" is a crock regarding Deacon Edmund Rice's ancestry. It's been known as a crock since 1936.

Erica: Either him or his uncle Edward. But neither one was an EdMUND, and that's the rock on which this fallacy founders.

Dale: I know a helluva lot more than I needed to about crock genealogies. In my case it was Emma Siggins White's "Genesis of the White Family", a farrago of nonsense, delusion and outright fraud attempting to "prove" that 1) *every* family currently going by the name of White was related (they're not) and 2) her husband's ancestors were high gentry with close ties to the Royal Courts (they weren't - they were Somerset shepherds).

(Thank goodness she didn't get her hooks into Frances White Wells - I shudder to think what abominations might have resulted!)

Elizabeth Lewis

I think this might be Henry Rice's wife.

Evidently, his negotiations to wed Mary Myddleton didn't pan out in his favor. Unless she was his second wife.

Sir Edward Lewis, of Van

Dame Blanche Morgan

I think these were Henry Rice's in-laws, Elizabeth's parents. I remember the name Bodenham just recently when I was busy researching Henry.

Their son was Sir Edward Lewis of Edington Priory and The Van

Private User I'm ahead of you - please check the profiles in Geni. Henry Rice "the writer" married Margaret, daughter of Sir Edward Lewis of Van by his wife Dame Blanche Morgan, sometime around 1631, when she finalized the marriage arrangements with him. It's well sourced in the profile. I'm having network trouble or I'd copy it out for you, but believe me, I have got it right. I've actually worked on this Lewis family before and it needed another deep clean.

I will mention (again) that I am from "Richard Rice of Concord Massachusetts" who has not a hint of Welsh although someone thinks he was from Somerset. His daughter married my Dr Philip Reade of London & Lynn MA.

Dr Philip Reade was subjected to a book arguably even worse that than the White Book. "The Reade Book" (1862) is considered the very worst of a very bad lot of Victorian era genealogical nonsense.

Luckily I found my direct Reade ancestor in it, in the 1840s, as a result of the author sending out a subscription request to cousins to buy the book, and requesting their direct information. This is how most of these books got written: by subscription, by hacks.

And luckily again, there was a short lived Reade Family Association in the 1910s who straightened out a lot of the garbage ... although it still pollutes internet genealogies.

Colonial Virginia is bad on making untoward associations. But arguably Colonial Massachusetts at an earlier date was even worse, and there was a "glamour fad" for all things Welsh. That unfortunately is what Edmund Rice was subjected to.

As mentioned: Welsh were "not" in Massachusetts at this early date . Rev. Blinman. About it. Their emigrations were later and to different areas, most notably Pennsylvania, of course.

I should also say that it seems to me Elizabeth Lewis died young. When Sir Edward of Van wrote his will in 1623 he identified 4 living sons and 1 living daughter: daughter Katherine (who married Mansell) died before then. Margaret was a minor and he left her not nearly as much money as one would have thought, so Henry Rice "the writer" didn't do nearly as well by this marriage as he would have the Middleton heiress. Yet he was engaged for several years as he mentioned his upcoming marriage in his petitions to Charles l for his property.

Interestingly there were three "base children" of Sir Edward as well, and they are identified. But I don't know which daughter married which of the men. So ... there's more royal ancestry running around Wales somewhere.

Here's a primary source for the marriage of Margaret Lewis and Henry Rice:

https://archives.library.wales/index.php/articles-of-agreement-betw... “1631, Aug. 29 File A74-5. Articles of agreement between Henry Rice of Newtown, co. Carmarthen, esq., and Dame Blanche Lewis of St Fagans, co. Glamorgan, on the marriage of the said Henry Rice, with Margaret, daughter of the said Dame Blanche Lewis.”

And another interesting person found in this tree

Sir William Vaughan

Interesting reading here

http://www.terrynorm.ic24.net/dynevor.htm

Edmund Price, of North Crawley