HaRav Shabty Ashkenazi HaCohen Katz, the SCHaCH - Relationship between Rema and the Shach

Started by Michael Tabacinic on Tuesday, December 17, 2019
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12/17/2019 at 1:17 PM

Does anyone have a specific source for the relationship between the Shach and the Rema?

When I try to have Geni figure it out, it finds that:
Rabbi Moses ben Israel Isserles, "RaMA"'s daughter was
Dreizel (Therese) Bunim-Meisels, who's son
Shimon Wulfe Meisels was married to
Unsourced daughter - probably wrong link Mrs. Shimon Wulfe Meisels, the daughter of
HaRav Shabty Ashkenazi HaCohen Katz, the "SHaCH"
(see here: https://bit.ly/35xwJTY)

I can also trace it by hand as:
Rabbi Moses ben Israel Isserles, "RaMA"'s daughter
Dreizel (Therese) Bunim-Meisels had a daughter
Leah Bunim Meisels who's son
Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna had a daughter
Yenta Leah Katz who was married to
HaRav Shabty Ashkenazi HaCohen Katz, the "SHaCH"

I find it unlikely that the Shach's daughter married her great grand uncle... which of these is correct?

With sources please so we can clean this up.

Private User
12/17/2019 at 2:36 PM

Here is what I have: RaMa>Dreyzl (Isserles) Meisels>Leah (Meisels)>Binyamon Shimon Vulf>Yenteh Leah Meisels m. SCHaCH So there is no blood relationship between the RaMa and the SCHaCH. The SCHaCH is married to the 2x great granddaughter of the RaMa. Their descendants are related by blood to both the RaMa and the SCHaCH. The wife of Binyamon Shimon Vulf is Sarah bat MaHarSha: Sarah Meisels

12/17/2019 at 2:55 PM

the mother of Yente Leah (wife of the Schach) named Bella Delhiner, she buried in hildesheim.

12/17/2019 at 7:45 PM

Michael Tabacinic
in the profile of
In his profile picture I included information on the subject (in Hebrew)

Netanel Isaiah Frisch

we have to be careful about the information (including information available on the ozar hachochma website).If you followed yesterday's discussion in the group we are both members of: (rabbinical genealogy group), Yaron wrote to me yesterday that there is in geni Mistakes regarding the identity of the rema's grandfather and great-grandfathers
When I return from work today, I will try to go over the information he wrote to me and open discussions on the subject.
If you have time during the day, I would be happy if you do so, making it easier for me (I get back from work late and tired)
In addition, I would love to know where you have the information about Beila Tauber (Delhiner)
Beila Meisels (Tauber?)
Because not all information found on the network (including in hebrew books website) is correct and verified information
many thanks

12/18/2019 at 11:05 AM

note 74. and in previous page.

also in Monatsschrift 1900, pages 244-245.
Rema was father in law of Rabbi Simcha Bunim Meisles who was father in law of Rabbi Isaac Bunim's, he was the father of Shimon Wolf Vilner (not Tauber) who was the father in law of the Schach.

in this page the fathers in law of Shimon wolf the son of Dreisel Meisles.

12/19/2019 at 5:04 AM

Netanel Isaiah Frisch
many thanks
האם ראית את הדיון, ואת מה שכתב לי ירון פדהצור לגביי זהותם של סבו וסבי הרבא של הרמ"א?

12/19/2019 at 4:44 PM

Netanel Isaiah Frisch, that first source is confusing - it says that Moshe the bal Mahador Batra was the son of Itzhak Bunamesh, the grandson of the Rema.

Assuming Itzhak Bunamesh is Rabbi Isaac Wolf Bunim-Meisels, of Vilna:

1) his WIFE is the grandchild of the Rema, not him, but that may have been colloquial use of "grandson"

2) His children (presumably in order of birth) were:

a) Rabbi Moshe Ben Yitzhak HaCohen Bunems Meisels, Ba'al "Mahadura Batra" the son-in-law of Shmuel Eliezer haLevi Eideles, MaHarSha
b) Avraham the son-in-law of Yosef Kalmanash
c) Wolf Vilna the son-in-law of Hirsh Delhiner (presumably Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna)
d) Yisrael the son-in-law of R' Baer Kalmanash of Fartsave
e) Marel the wife of Pinchas Zelig Ashkenaz of Minsk
f) Dreizel the wife of Isaac of Kraamintz [and the uncle of Rabbi Isaac of Hirsh of Lukwana]
g) Krindel, the wife of Wolf Pisk from Nickelsburg
h) Leib the son-in-law of Yaakov Ashkenaz
i) Rachama wife of Yaakov Gitils from Levitsk
j) Shprintzel the wife of Israel Drashan of Kalish

(apologies for butchering the cities and last names)

Only the two I linked to match Geni's entry for Rabbi Isaac Wolf Bunim-Meisels, of Vilna's children; am I reading this incorrectly?

If I read correctly, then either that is not the correct Itzhak, or the other siblings of Moshe and Shimon are incorrect, or incorrectly named.

1/28/2020 at 4:10 PM

Shmiel Nochum Minz, I'm having a hard time understanding the 3 links you sent - my Hebrew is not great. Could you please translate the relevant parts of those articles?

From #15 I got:
מהמקור השלישי - מגילת ריש [...] לא נתחדש מידע רב לענין זה, רק הידיעה כי ר' מאיר כץ, אביו של הש"ך היה חתן הקצין ר' נחום לוקווער
"The third source - the Megillat Rish [...] didn't bring new information on this matter, only that R' Meir Katz, the Sha"ch's father was the son-in-law of R' Nachum Luckvar (?)"

On Geni, R' Meir Katz's father-in-law is Rabbi Yitzhak Katz, [of Posnan], not R' Nachum - but this also doesn't seem relevant.

2/2/2020 at 12:56 PM

I don't really have the time to translate all this but 1 thing is sure that this site is much more accurate then geni because geni is a site that everyone can put in any names and that site went through the real details.

4/17/2020 at 2:47 PM

Ok, this keeps coming up and confusing my research. Was Shimon Wulfe Meisels really married to Unsourced daughter - probably wrong link Mrs. Shimon Wulfe Meisels, who was his great grand niece?!?

If not, can someone please take a look and figure out which relationship here is incorrect??


5/4/2020 at 4:21 PM

I have been told my lineage my entire life. My mother's family name was Shakewitz and were not only among the first founders of Gedera, Israel with placks dedicated to them, but I was told that my family are direct decendants of the Schach. Will a DNA test prove that? Can I import my family tree from Ancestry here? My Ancestry DNA shows that I am 100% European Jew. My family is Ashkenazi. I have also traced both sides of my family to the same area of Russia/Poland. Please help me, as I don't really know what I am doing. B'H' Sharon

5/4/2020 at 9:08 PM

Sharon Jo Ramboz I started filling out your tree. Keep adding and correcting the information and with luck you'll find the connecction.

Private User
5/5/2020 at 10:57 AM

Sharon Jo Ramboz Yes you can transfer a tree from Ancestry to GENI by first downloading the tree from Ancestry as a gedcom file and then uploading that to GENI.

Using DNA to confirm descent from the Schach is more difficult, but there could be a way of doing this depending on whose dna results you have. Please see this project for more detail: https://www.geni.com/projects/Rabbinical-Lineages-yDNA-and-Haplogro....

Best Wishes, Adam

5/5/2020 at 1:42 PM

Adam, I am not good with computers. Can you explain how to download a gencom file? I have no idea what that is, much less uploading to GENI.

5/6/2020 at 5:37 AM

My Grandfather Shimshon has told me he is a descendant of Shimshon M'Ostropolie and of SCHACH through the marriage of their children. In that lineage tree there is also Yaacov Yosef haKohen Katz (Toldot Yaacov Yosef), his son and son-in-law whose names appear on the title page of the first printing of Toldot. The names Shimshon, Shabtai and Meir and Moshe also appear several times in that tree.
Can anybody add to this knowledge?

Thanks, Lipa

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