Oria - Ibn Hazm affirm that she is the daughter of Musa ibn Musa

Started by cesar matta on Sunday, December 22, 2019
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12/22/2019 at 9:39 PM

According to this book :


Navarra o cuando los vascos tenían reyes
By Pierre Narbaitz

I think the full name should be restored, we have a very close and authoritative source on the matter.

Private User
12/23/2019 at 1:18 AM

We have several discussion here about the case of Oria. I recommend reading them, there might be answers to this.

12/24/2019 at 2:49 AM

Yes i've seen those, but someone keeps insisting that there is no source on it. What about Ibn Hazm ?
We do know that for ideological reason, every arab root of the iberian nobility had to be denied, so i think that the arabic source are more reliable.

12/24/2019 at 2:52 AM

I mean he explictly wrote that Oria the daughter of Musa ibn Musa married Garcia, King of the Basques.

Private User
12/24/2019 at 3:09 AM

I havent heard anything new after this information?

:Oria (Auria, Awriya), the wife of Fortún Garcés, is known only from the Códice de Roda, which names domna Oria filia de --- (lady Oria, daughter of ---) as the wife of Furtunio Garseanis (Fortún Garcés). This codex probably dates from the late 10th century with additions for the 11th century, so it is approximately 100 years or more after her lifetime.

There is no contemporary indication of her parentage, but there several theories about her possible ancestry:

Historian and professor Antonio Rei suggested she might have been a granddaughter of Musa ibn Musa ibn Qasi (Rei, 44–45). The Banu Qasi were a Christian family who converted to Islam. Historian and genealogist Christian Settipani suggested she might have been a daughter of Oria bint Musa, daughter of Musa ibn Musa, and her husband García (killed 859). The latter would be a son of García Galíndez the Bad and his first wife Matrona, daughter of Aznar I Galíndez, count of Aragon (Settipani, 114) Settipani also suggested she might have been a daughter of García Galíndez the Bad and another Aurea, his second wife, the daughter of Eneko Arista and sister García I of Navarre (Settipani, 114). Settipani also suggested she might have been a daughter of Galindo I Aznárez, count of Aragon, and a granddaughter of Aznar I Galíndez and a third Aurea, who could be the daughter of the Duke Lupo II of Gascony and a sister of Oneca or Iniga, the mother of Eneko Arista and Musa ibn Musa (Settipani, 115). Spanish Wikipedia (citing Rei) supports the theory she was daughter of Lubb ibn Musa ( Lope ibn Musa) and Ayab Al-Bilatiyya, and a granddaughter of Musa ibn Musa and Assona Iniguez but says in a footnote that her parentage is not documented. In unsourced Internet genealogies she is most often called a daughter of Lope ibn Musa (banu Qasi). She married [845] King Fortún Garcés of Pamplona, who died in 922. They were the parents of:

Íñigo Fortúnez Aznar Fortúnez Velasco Fortúnez Lope Fortúnez Onneca Fortúnez, who married firstly Abdallah ibn Mohammed, Emir of Córdoba, and secondly her cousin Aznar Sánchez of Larraun, grandson of king García Íñiguez, becoming the mother of the future queens Toda Aznárez, wife of Sancho Garcés, and Sancha Aznárez, wife of king Jimena Garcés. Sources Charles Cawley, KINGS of PAMPLONA 822-(905) (IÑIGA DYNASTY) at Medieval Lands, visited May 27, 2018. Todd A. Farmerie, "Muslim/Christian descents in Early-Medieval Spain" at soc.genealogy.medieval (June 16, 2001). António Rei (2011–2012). "Descendência Hispânica do Profeta do Islão: Exploração de Algumas Linhas Primárias". Armas e Troféus (in Portuguese). Instituto Português de Heráldica Christian Settipani, La Noblesse du Midi Carolingien, Oxford, Linacre College, Unit for Prosopographical Research, coll. Occasional Publications / 5 (2004) Leo van de Pas, citing Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.)m II 53. Wikipedia: English French German Spanish

12/24/2019 at 5:38 AM

She comes across Geni as my 33rd great grandmother, too. All of this, if Geni is to be believed. All of this, if true, is fascinating; I'm eagerly awaiting the results of this conversation, as well.

Private User
12/24/2019 at 7:36 AM

Oria, hija de Musa Ibn Musa, a la vista del testimonio formal de Ibn Hazm, (muerto en 1063), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Hazm

This is what makes it dumb,
"Auria – also known as Oria – was an early Queen consort of Pamplona. She is known from a single historical source, the Códice de Roda, which only gives her name and not her parentage".

She is not known, as the fist quote shows, from only one source, but, she is only known from one contemporary source, and that's a big difference.

Ibn Hazm was as you see, not contemporary, he was born 94 years after Orias death, but does this really make him not that contemporary? There should have existed contemporary sources, information that he had access to, maybe also, not existing today, but that he had used as source, and I do not see any reason that this information should be considered as fraud, fallacy or fake.

Instead of being set as a daughter Musa Ibn Musa lbn Qasaw, Walí de Tudela y Huesca y Zaragoza she was previous set up as a daughter to his son Lope ibn Musa and I belive that the people who did this, thought that it would be a better fit pure due to chronological reasons, and maybe the fact that she named one son Lope Fortúnez. But this Lope could just as well been named after her brother.

Anyway, her husbands mother Urraca could also have been the granddaughter of Musa ibn Musa ibn Qasi, if so, he would have married a very close relative, but, they wouldn't have had the same mother, (Oria and Urraca).

I do not think either, that this procedure of marrying closely relatives, was that unacquainted at that time, because that was more or less a habit of keeping the power limited within a fewer amount of families...

Private User
12/24/2019 at 7:52 AM

Just a reminder, I would rather bet a dollar on Ibn Hazm's statement despite the fact that he lived a century after Oria, than ANY other nowadays contemporary so called experts who only creates and launches one theory after another just to be famous themselves!

12/26/2019 at 5:00 PM

Also, Ibn Hazm is one of the greatest and most respected intellectual of the Muslim world even today, and the science of genealogy is a very serious affair for the Muslims and Arabs.

In his time, saying who was the father of Oria is like in our time saying who is the daughter of Trump. It cannot be taken as a weak source, it's a direct testimony of a serious affair. It made the Banu Qasi the grandparents of the basque king of Ibn Hazm's time.

12/27/2019 at 2:20 PM

Since i wanted to see it in the primary material itself, i went out of my way to search for the original part in Ibn Hazm. I have a diploma in Arabic and Islamic study, and I finally found the part. It's part of the HUGE book of Ibn Hazm "The Genealogy of the Arabs" :


It says (the underlined part) "Musa Ibn Musa sons: (...) Awriyat, who married Garcia the King of Basque".

It's also confirmed by the french orientalist Levi Provencal

Private User
12/27/2019 at 3:14 PM

cesar matta please tell the curator
Private User who stated "Parentage unknown." on Oria's profile that you know. Explain, convince try, and if he doesn't listen, ask him to explain why they are still unknown.

12/27/2019 at 8:25 PM

I wrote to him. i hope he will check the new evidences.

You can also add to the case that the basque dynasty added to the "Codice of Roda", which don't mention the origin of Oria (but don't negate it either), was added after the death of Ibn Hazm. So Ibn Hazm is the most ancient source we have on this issue.

Private User
12/28/2019 at 2:14 AM

We have had discussions so many times about this that I do not even remember. Where are the new? evidence? I fought about to let Oria keep her parents years :) but good luck.

Curator Justin Howery Swanstrom has already answered to case Ibn Hazm as many others:

"I suppose that's one possibility, but not proved. MedLands says:

> GARCÍA, son of --- (-killed in battle Monte Laturce 859). Ibn Hazm names "Awriya" as the daughter of "Musa ibn Musa", adding that she married "Garsiya rey de los Vascos" and names their son "Musa ibn Garsiya"[39]. This García has not otherwise been identified in the families of the early kings of Pamplona/Navarre. One possibility is that the sources have misnamed him and that he is the same person as Galindo Iñíguez, son of Íñigo "Arista" [King] of Pamplona (see below, Part B.), who converted to Islam, probably had a Muslim wife, and is recorded as having a son named Musa. m [AWRIYA], daughter of MUSA ibn Musa. Her parentage and marriage are confirmed by the Chronicon Sebastiani which records that "Muza…genere suo…Garseane" was killed at the battle of Monte Laturce against Ordoño I King of Asturias [in 859][40]. Ibn Hazm names "Awriya" as the daughter of "Musa ibn Musa", adding that she married "Garsiya rey de los Vascos" and names their son "Musa ibn Garsiya"[41].

Hard to see why Garcia would be the same as Fortun Garcés. The names are different, and Fortun Garcés became king in 882, 23 years after Garcia was killed in battle.

Remember these are patronymics. Saying Fortun Garcez and Garcés are the same person would be like saying we've got this Lars Svensson, who must be the same as this Sven over here ;)."

Ibn Hazm : https://www.geni.com/discussions/181762


and the rest: https://www.geni.com/discussions/search?search_type=discussions&amp...

Private User
12/28/2019 at 2:18 AM
Private User
12/28/2019 at 9:13 AM

Cesar Matta: thank you for pointing this out. This does relate and tie into many important family trees. I have tried to also prove parentage through 1800's Spanish books and texts. From Spanish Historians.

But, Thus far: Western historians trump all.... Why?

12/28/2019 at 10:22 AM

Saga, in arabic Fortun is called "فرتون بن غرسية" , Garsiya is written exactly like Ibn Hazm called him.

Also, in the text you provided, the author don't mention AT ALL the fact that Ibn Hazm call him "KING of the Basque" (MALIK). We got one king of the Basque who is called Garsiya, and who is known to have married an Oria from unknown origin.

Why we don't take into account the opinion of historian of the period, Levy Provincal ?

12/28/2019 at 10:36 AM

I think it's ideologically driven, because they constantly fail to mention what is in the text, that she was married to the "KING of the Basque".

If we don't accept that as a proof, so close to the time period and from one of the most known Andalusian historian, that cast a shadow on a ton of proofs in history.

Private User
12/28/2019 at 11:09 AM

"ideologically driven", and, religious, and political, and, why not, a bit of racism?

The reason for destroying this profile may be a bit of it all, but destroyed, it is. Vandals,
(a person who deliberately destroys or damages public or private property).

12/29/2019 at 5:45 PM

Private User I just wish all those people would stay on Ancestry. I am thankful we at least have a space to discuss these things. I am with Marvin Loyd Welborn (Tink) ♒️ - Oria is my 33rd great grandmother. I am highly interested in how these discussions are going and just wish I had more to contribute. Thanks to all!

Private User
12/29/2019 at 7:01 PM

She is my 34th g-grandmother and also my 33rd g-aunt (through her sister-in-law, Jimena Garcés de Pamplona, reina consorte de Asturias who is my 32nd g-grandmother and sister of Oria's husband, Fortún Garcés el Monje, rey de Pamplona who is also both my 34th g-grandfather and 33rd g-uncle.

Hope I got that right. And I'm sad that she has lost her father. Devastated to see history re-written before my eyes. I feel I'm under emotional siege.

Private User
12/29/2019 at 10:44 PM

"ideologically driven", and, religious, and political, and, why not, a bit of racism?

The reason for destroying this profile may be a bit of it all, but destroyed, it is. Vandals,
(a person who deliberately destroys or damages public or private property).

thumbs up

Private User
12/30/2019 at 8:49 AM

Cesar - Jep. I do not disagree with you, just saying and pointing out, that at those discussions these things have been discussed already, as you can see when you open them.

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