Sir John Richard Osbourne, of Ashford - Evidence for parents

This is JJs tree.

Sir John Richard Osborne, of Ashford

This is a document posted on the Ancestry tree, I presume it’s from Burke’s or a similar peerage report.

The Pedigree of the Osborn family is as follows,-with these brief notices:-

Peter Osborn, of Purleigh, Essex; ob. 1442.

Richard Osborn, o.b. 1471.

Richard Osborn, Tyld Hall, Essex; ob. 1544.

Peter Osborn, Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer of the Exchequer, and Privy Purse; Ed. VI. Imprisoned in Queen Mary's reign. In great esteem with Lord Burleigh, and a High Commissioner for Ecclesiastical Affairs, active and zealous in the Reformation; ob. 1592.

Sir John Osborn, Kt., Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer, married Dorothea, daughter of Sir John Danvers, and sister of Danvers, Earl of Danby ; ob.1623.

Sir Peter Osborn, Kt., Twenty-two years Governor of Guernsey and Jersey , a firm royalist; and suffered much in the royal cause; he advanced large sums to Charles I., and was obliged to compound for his estates for himself and his son, Sir Henry Osborn, at the sum of 3,737l. 3s ; ob.1657.

Francis Osborn, Esq., his son, author of a celebrated treatise, called "Advice to a Son," and other works; ob. 1657.

Sir Henry Osborn, his youngest son, of esteemed learning and disposition; Treasurer of sick and wounded seamen; ob. 1675.

Sir John Osborn, Bart., so created by Charles II.. as a small recompense for the sufferings of his family, during the Rebellion; ob. 1692.

Sir John Osborn, Bart. ; ob. 1720.

Admiral Henry Osborn, his son, Vice-Admiral of the Fleet; born 1697.

John Osborn, Esq., died in. the life-time of his father, 1718.

Sir Danvers Osborn, Bart., Governor of New York ; ob. 1753.

Sir George Osborn, Bart., Groom of the Bedchamber to George III., K. B., installed as Proxy for Frederic Duke of York, 1772; a General in the army; ob. 1818

Sir John Osborn, a Lord of the Admiralty, and Colonel of the Bedfordshire Militia: the present Baronet.

The pedigree is from here:

om Chicksands', in I.D. Parry, Select Illustrations, Historical and Topographical, of Bedfordshire (Longman & Co./Nicholls/Taylor, London 1827), pp. 109-120, at p. 118

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UTUJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA118#v=one...

Here’s the Lord Mayor.

Sir Edward Osborne, MP, Lord Mayor of London

The Genealogist published his pedigree in 1908.

https://books.google.com/books?id=9iY9AQAAIAAJ&lpg=PA2&dq=S...

“ The proved ancestry of Lord Mayor Osborne is indeed short, being confined to the fact that his father was " Richard Osborne, of Ashford, co. Kent," as stated in the pedigree of 1634, signed bv Edward Osborne, his grandson, who does not even give the name of the Mayor's mother. ...

“... There was a wide-spreading family of Osborne settled at Chiddingfold, eo. Surrey, who not improbably were connected with the Lord Mayor, as in the will of one of them, John Osborne, Citizen and Ironmonger of London, dated 9 and proved 21 August 1581, in the P.CC., " my master, Edward Osborne, Alderman of London," is made overseer," though no relationship is given. It has been stated that " this familv was for some time seated at Ashford, co. Kent,"3 but anyhow " they bore whollv different arms, and no relationship was ever suggested in earlv times" between them and " a family of ancient gentrv of the name of Osborne, in Kent, although the two families were connected in Sir Edward's lifetime by their both intermarrying with the Peytons."

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=60856&h=1518401...
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=1624&h=5860110&...
http://search.ancestry.com/collections/1554/records/1379692
http://search.ancestry.com/collections/1351/records/1556225
http://search.ancestry.com/collections/3599/records/890030
http://search.ancestry.com/collections/1860/records/2483
http://search.ancestry.com/collections/8942/records/165981
http://search.ancestry.com/collections/5936/records/57886
https://www.familysearch.org/photos/artifacts/63369051?
https://www.familysearch.org/photos/artifacts/63369051?p=19729957&a...

Peter & Eme
Children William,Richard,Rachel,John (Wilhelmina), Peter

John & Wilhelmina
Children: Richard, Ann, Edward
Richard is Lord Mayor of Leeds

One of the problems I see immediately is that documents are coming in from different places. So if we’ve got a family in Leeds, the documents from
Somerset and Bedfordshire aren’t useful.

I will indeed look at these things carefully, and chime back in later.

(Why does he have a middle name, if he’s born in the middle of the 15th Cen? This bothers me.’

Ah. This profile has Ashford in Kent. In Collin’s a Peerage it’s Leeds — https://www.google.com/books/edition/Collins_s_Peerage_of_England/m...

The relevant tree & document seems to be here:

John Richard (son of Peter) & Wilhemina

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/family/G397-BY1

Supported by this screen snag

https://www.familysearch.org/photos/artifacts/63369051

Peter Osborne’s heir was Richard Osborne who married the daughter of Cawston ....

—-

What is the record supporting John (who was not his brother Richard) who married Wilhelma?

He’s called Sir: was he knighted?

I understand the need for evidence and yes it is a work in progress and there may be errors. But a request for proof should come before the destruction of a family tree, not after you are called out for deleting a large part of a tree. I'm extremely disappointed in this organization right now!

John Richard's brother Richard was a knight.

Note:
1 Richard Osborne, Knight, born 1488 Ashford, Kent =3D Elizabeth Flydane
1-1 Richard Osbourne (B1510) =3D Jane Broughton, d/o John
1-1-1 SIR EDWARD OSBOURNE (D1591) , Knight and Lord Mayor of London in =
1583 =3D Ann Hewett d/o William and Ann Levenson Hewett (Ann is buried =
at St. Martins) =3D=3D Margaret Chapman
1-1-1-1 Thomas Osbourne
1-1-1-2 John Osbourne
1-1-1-3 Sir Hewitt Osbourne, grandfaher 1st Duke of Leeds
1-1-1-4 Thomas Osbourne at College Land in 1624 census, BONA NOVA in =
1619
1-1-1-5 Adria Osbourne =3D Thomas Harris (B1584) invested =A325 in =
Virginia Company. (Thomas Harris a brother to Arthur Harris who married =
Johanna Percy (D/O Sir Henry Percy, 6th Earl of Northumberland). =
Thomas had another brother named "Sergeant" John Harris whose daughter =
Dorothy was the third wife of my ancestor John Baker (unknown if =
related to Sir John Baker mentioned later.)
1-1-1-6 Ann Osborne (1570-1653) =3D Robert Offley (D1625) at =
Jamestown in 1609
1-1-1-6-1 Sarah Offley =3D Cap. Adam Thorogood
1-1-1-6-2 ___ Offley =3D Sir John Baker of Mayfield and Tenderten
1-1-1-6-3 Elizabeth Offley =3D Cap John Michael

10,000 descendants on Geni - the max the computer can show.

It’s many people’s family tree; including mine. I need evidence of parents. Doesn’t everyone?

I’ve given you proof and again the request for proof should come BEFORE you take it upon yourself to delete people. But that’s why I have a backup of the tree. This is highly unprofessional.

You did not show a record and in fact the records we have “do not” list John & Wilhelmina.

Do you have a record to show for that couple? Because I’ve been looking for years.

Also I believe there are errors in this piece of the pedigree you just posted:

Adria Osbourne =3D Thomas Harris (B1584) invested =A325 in =
Virginia Company. (Thomas Harris a brother to Arthur Harris who married =
Johanna Percy (D/O Sir Henry Percy, 6th Earl of Northumberland). =

I’ll post the geni profiles for that area. We are fortunate to have a long term Harris researcher contributing to this collaborative tree.

Adria (Hoare) Harris, Ancient Planter

From her profile notes:

“
best we know

Adria Hoare Harris came to Virginia on the MARMADUKE. Her sister, living in London, paid for her passage. Audry was born in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, England. Her parents were Thomas Hoare, a shoemaker and Julian Tryplett.

She was married to Capt. Thomas Harris, his origin had yet to be proved. The Thomas Harris from Crixie, Essex, died unmarried and still in England.

This information is documented in vol. III ADVENTURERERS OF PURSE AND PERSON, 2004 edition,.

I believe that there were only two children, MARY and WILLIAM”

We do not know the origins of Capt. Thomas Harris, Ancient Planter

——

I do not see that Arthur Harris of Prittlewell who married Lady Joanna Harris had a brother at all.

This is an interesting comment:

“ 1 Burke’: Peerage states that Richard Osborne was the son of Richard Osborne, by his wife, Elizabeth Fyldene, and married jane, daughter of John Broughton, esquire. of Broughton; but it is believed that the statement is conjectural.”

https://books.google.com/books?id=9yI5AQAAMAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA1&...

Good lord, that tree is a mess.

Good morning! I will now look at all this stuff and remark upon it.

1) the profile for Peter Osborne takes us to https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UTUJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA118#v=one... which tells us that Peter Osborne had a son named Richard, out of the records by 1471. This person lived in Essex, and our "John Richard" (this is a name which does not exist; middle names are no at this time) lives in Kent, so I don't see what the connection between them is. Since the name Osbourn descends from a Viking personal name, it's not surprising to find various families with the name, who might not be connected at all.

2) The British History online link -- https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-kent/vol6/pp15-24 -- gives us a William Osborne who died in 1464, and his son John who died in 1577, and they are in Kent, yay, but the generation after John is not given, and if there is any connection I can't see it.

3) the Wiki tree entry for "John Richard" does give us a citation! It's the personal knowledge of the person who entered the information! This must be because this person has been alive for about 550 years! This is quite impressive. But, no. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Osbourne-94

4) Ancestry tree here giving John as a son of Peter; he has no children, so that isn't helpful. And there are no citations. https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/74251480/person/12...

5) The pedigree from the Bedfordshire volume gives a line down from Peter; again, this is Essex: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UTUJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA118#v=one...

6) The Genealogist gave the pedigree of Edward Osborne, the Mayor of London -- https://books.google.com/books?id=9iY9AQAAIAAJ&lpg=PA2&dq=S... -- and it goes back no further than Richard Osborn and Elizabeth Fyldene.

7) Private User lists several documents -- a) gives us a Thomas Osborne, the son of John and Alice, from Somerset in 1678, so, not useful; b) gives us John Osborne, the son of William and Alice, in London in 1617, so, not useful; c) gives us John Osborn, naturalized in New York in 1933, so REALLY not useful and actually sort of insulting; d) John Osborne, the son of William Osborne, in Wiltshire in 1566, so, not useful; e) John Osborne in American biographies from the 19th century, so, not useful; f) Elizabeth, daughter of John Osborn, gets married to a Bateman in Derby in 1718, so, not useful; g) various Osbornes go to Oxford in the 17th century, so, not useful; h) John Osborne got buried in Suffolk in 1524, so, not useful; I) unsourced remarks saying that Peter Osborne settled in Essex and had two sons, John and Richard, which DOES have something to do with what we are talking about, but alas, no citations, and also, that either of these guys is the person we are talking about is entirely unclear. Also. Essex, not Kent. j) repeats the stuff right before.

8) The Family Search pedigree is not useful; there are no citations to either primary documents or reliable secondary documents. Or anything really.

All righty, then!

Here's what I'm seeing:

There were Osbornes all over England. Some of them were related to each other.

Peter Osborne had sons Richard and John. He lived in Essex. Neither of them was the Osborne who lived in Kent.

The earliest that the pedigree for Edward Osborne, the Mayor of London, can be taken back is to Richard Osborne and Elizabeth Fyldene. That his antecedents, previous to that link, are "obscure" is one of the giveaways here. If the genealogists had been able to take that line back further, they would have. They couldn't. It's a dead end.

Erica was right to detach the line, and the line should be locked down. Indeed, I would cut it here -- Sir Richard Osborne, I, of Ashford

Also. The "John Richard" stuff needs to get fixed. He is one or the other.

Thanks for the puzzle!

I’ve completed some more cleanup. From this profile Thomas Osborne there is a published reference article cited here:

http://www.osborne-origins.org/linkrecs/f12724.htm#R12724

"American Genealogist ...", Vol XII#4, "Ancestry of Thomas Osborne..."

And - a will! The Geni tree is lacking some of the people mentioned the Will (step children).

I’m just not certain he’s the brother of Sir Edward Osborne, MP, Lord Mayor of London if anyone has more insight.

The problem with all of this Osbourne data is that NONE of it documents any daughter Joane or any Osborne neighbor to Capt Thomas Harris as the Ligon family Reuion member invented as the reason for a Osboutne name to his wife. .