Mary Ann (Wahanganoche) Meese, name in Appopotomax Co will Book, dtr of Wahanganoche - Help with dates?

Started by Private on Tuesday, February 4, 2020
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Private
2/4/2020 at 3:45 AM

SmartCopyConsistency Check:Death date of Keziah Bryant is after her burial date.Colonel Henry Meese, Sr. is under 14 years old for his marriage.Mary Ann (Wahanganoche) Meese, name in Appopotomax Co will Book, dtr of Wahanganoche is under 12 years old for the birth of her child Grace Kay.Mary Ann (Wahanganoche) Meese, name in Appopotomax Co will Book, dtr of Wahanganoche is under 12 years old for the birth of her child Frances Waugh, 1st of multiple wives.

2/4/2020 at 11:38 AM

I've had trouble with people going in and changing the lineage, taking people OUT because of stuff like this. Unfortunately, the birth, death and burial dates need to be confirmed instead, as lots of people seem to be getting them wrong, on multiple people, which would not be uncommon going that far back in history. Tombstones might not even be readable by now, or misread, if there are tombstones available at all. Otherwise, with no written records going back into the 1600s and before, how would we know exact dates on births dates and burials. They didn't keep records and the people often didn't remember their own birthdates. Also, our people kept naming their children after aunts, uncles, mothers and fathers so the names are often the same in different generations. I believe we need a true historian to verify these names and dates who won't get the people in different generations mixed up.

Private
2/5/2020 at 1:55 AM

Point by point way to solve this: 1. Keziah burial date before her death date - can be removed. 2. Henry being under 14 for his marriage, can be changed to circa earlier date. 3. Same solution 4. Same. Then the problem is fixed.

Also would like to point out someone keeps putting PRINCESS on her profile. Natives did not call themselves Princess.

Private
2/6/2020 at 4:01 AM

Next person who changes her name to PRINCESS will be able to be seen as to who did it per the click of the REVISIONS tab which allows for all to see who does what.

7/12/2021 at 11:54 AM

Is there a relationship between this profile and Amy [Naomi Bunch] ?

Debbie Gambrell - see this discussion

7/12/2021 at 12:56 PM

Not that I'm aware of. I don't know these lines. This is the first time I've attempted to work on them and that's to help someone with their connections who knows less than I do. lol All I know is Amy is his ancestor, not Mary Meese. I thought I started the discussion under Amy's profile. ?

7/12/2021 at 1:02 PM

When tracing, work down up. So I went down the tree to someone who might actually be recorded, as there’s been good work on the Bunch / Punch tree (Pres. Obama’s mother is in this tree.)

7/12/2021 at 1:22 PM

Read this to explain why you’re having trouble tracing.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Powhatan-236

Research suggests that this person may never have existed. See the text for details.

Disputed Biography

Otonah Mary was born in 1624. She passed away in 1675.[1]

Others say she was born circa 1645 in Potomac, Allegany, Maryland, granddaughter of Ka Okee, a disputed early daughter of Pocahontas. Lets say Ka Okee, said to be born 1611, was fifteen when she married. Her daughter, Unknown Powhatan, could have been born as early as 1626 if she was the first child. Now say she, Unknown daughter of Ka Okee, married at age eighteen in 1644. If Otonah "Mary" Powhatan was the first born child of Unknown Powhatan she could have been born no earlier than 1645. Taking this one step further, if Otonah Powhatan married at age fifteen, at the earliest, her oldest child could have been born no earlier than 1661.

This version of her profile says that she was born in 1645 in Potomac, Allegany, Maryland, some 200 miles from Jamestown. This would have been enemy territory as the Powhatan Tribes did not extended beyond the fall line of the James River.

She is said to have married Henry Meese in 1658, at age 13, in Maryland.

Henry Meese was a rich London Merchant who first came to Maryland in about 1654.[2] He formed a partnership and close friendship with Philip Calvert, one time Governor of Maryland (1660-1661) and youngest son of Lord Baltimore, proprietor of Maryland.[3] Henry began acquiring land in Virginia in 1665.[4] He left the Colony in 1669-1670, returning to live in England. In 1675 he married Anne Pert, who came with a healthy dowry. Together they lived in London.[5] Henry imported tobacco from Virginia and exported items of daily living to Virginia. Anne and Henry had four children: Henry, John, Anne and Frances. Henry died in London in 1682. He bequeathed his land in Virginia to his children. [6]
Henry's daughter, Ann Meese lived in London, unmarried, until her death in 1719. She requested to be buried next to her mother at Mountnessing and made bequest to her mother's sisters; Dorothy Pert, Mary Pert, Elizabeth Pert and Alice Pert. [7]

According to this profile, Otonah gave birth to a daughter Mary in 1651. She would have been six years old at the time. She cannot possibly be the mother of Anne Meese Bryant.

Her death, Ontonoh's, is said to have been in 1700 in Colony, Laurel County, Kentucky. Why and what was she doing there? Her supposed 'daughter' Mary Bryant lived her life in Virginia.

My guess is that this woman did not exist. [8]

7/12/2021 at 1:25 PM

Gotcha.

I had already worked from down up and that's how I got to these folks I couldn't validate.

7/12/2021 at 1:59 PM

Where does it break?

7/12/2021 at 2:05 PM

From parents of Amy Naomi (Winigum) Bunch on back. That's where I've hit all the duplicates, inconsistencies, ficitonal, etc. From her and her husband Paul Bunch on down seems pretty solid.
Our family friend is from their son Paul Bunch III's line.

7/12/2021 at 2:08 PM

Look at FamilySearch on the Bunch tree. A member was cleaning up over there a while back - we synced up. But I don’t recall this amy Naomi. Maybe she has her.

7/12/2021 at 2:27 PM

Her profile shows her as Cherokee but there are no notes on her and then the lines upline of her are trying to connect to Powhatan, not Cherokee. So I don't know where the Cherokee is supposedly from.

I'll check FamilySearch.

7/12/2021 at 2:41 PM

Just found a good reference.

Edit profile accordingly if you would. Link back to supposed parents, but they’re not known.

—-

Paul Bunch born: 1713 Hanover, Virginia married: Naomi Winigum 28 April 1748 Elizabeth Bunch Russell Bunch (There is a legend among descendants of the above named Bunches, John Sr., John Jr. and Paul, that they are related to Pocahontas, the Pohattan Indian princes who married John Rolf (Park Bunch families by Alice Crandall Park and Mrs. Garland King, Tennessee State library.)
7/12/2021 at 2:41 PM

Just found a good reference.

Edit profile accordingly if you would. Link back to supposed parents, but they’re not known.

—-

Paul Bunch born: 1713 Hanover, Virginia married: Naomi Winigum 28 April 1748 Elizabeth Bunch Russell Bunch (There is a legend among descendants of the above named Bunches, John Sr., John Jr. and Paul, that they are related to Pocahontas, the Pohattan Indian princes who married John Rolf (Park Bunch families by Alice Crandall Park and Mrs. Garland King, Tennessee State library.)

https://www.familysearch.org/service/records/storage/das-mem/patron...

7/12/2021 at 3:03 PM

Yes, I saw that and people have them linked to Pocahontas on Ancestry, but none of the connections I've seen are anything I have been able to verify. I think they're wishful thinking...everyone tries to connect to Pocohantas. I could be wrong and if that's the case, I'd love to see it all correctly connected.

That said, I'm looking for the proof of the Cherokee on the lines, not the Powhatan. I get as far back as Amy's father is listed as Cherokee and from there it seems everyone tries to connect them to Powhtan folks.

7/12/2021 at 6:08 PM

No way it’s Cherokee. That’s just southern talk for Indian. Disregard. Powhatan is possible.

7/12/2021 at 6:16 PM

Here’s the link they was corrupted in the new profiles.

https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p6335.htm...

Kaokee "Jane" Patawomeck was born circa 1600 at of Alleghany, MD.1 She married Whipsewasson circa 1615 at of Alleghany, MD.1 Kaokee "Jane" Patawomeck died circa 1670 at of James City, VA.1
Family
Whipsewasson b. c 1599, d. 1 Apr 1664
Child
Ontonah (Mary) Wahanganoche+1 b. c 1616, d. c 1700
Citations
[S11597] Ancestry.com, Information submitted by Marquita Bay-Hutchinson.

7/12/2021 at 6:22 PM

Here’s the book citation:

Park/e/s and Bunch on the Trail West, with Allied Families, Benton, Duvall, Foster, Greenwell, Jones, Loveless, and Tally. Alice Crandall Park, Avis Park Voss
Gateway Press, 1974 - 430 pages

Nathan Parke was born ca. 1715 and left Bethlehem Township, Hunterdon, Co., New Jersey in 1763 to move to Rowan Co., North Carolina. He died in 1784/85.

Page 207. https://books.google.com/books?id=BzVBAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvo...

7/12/2021 at 6:23 PM

It might be available on FamilySearch.

7/12/2021 at 6:24 PM
7/12/2021 at 6:32 PM

Marriage record is here for Paul Bunch and Amy Winigum

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/96582:49056?ssrc=...

Ancestry.com. South Carolina Marriages, 1688-1799 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2006.
Original data: Holcomb, Brent H. South Carolina Marriages, 1688-1799. Baltimore, MD, USA: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1995.

28 April 1748. Hist Oburg.

7/12/2021 at 6:37 PM

I see this on Ancestry,

Chief of Cherokee Nation Winigum
1635–1664
Research tabs
LifeStory Facts Gallery
FactsSourcesFamily Filter
Birth
1635 • Virginia Colony
1635
(AGE)
Birth of Son Chief Opothleyahole Winigum(1648–)
1648 • Carolina Colonial America
1648
13
Birth of Son Paul (Indian?) Winigum (Winningham)(1650–1726)
1650 • Carolina or Virginia, Colonial America
1650
15
Death
1 Apr 1664 • Murdered-Old Rappahannock, Caroline, Virginia Colony

—-

Kathryn Forbes - have you run across this before?

7/12/2021 at 7:12 PM

All hogwash. Henry Meese got land from Wahanganoche. No other connection. He had no children in Virginia, not with a daughter of Wahanganoche, not with a mythical descendant of Pocahontas. He was not related to John Ashton or his wife or his daughter. The are no records of any Cherokee person named Winigum, no records of any Cherokee peoople that early. The Cherokee have no connection to the Powhatan Confederacy or tidewater or piedmont Virginia, they lived hundreds of miles away on the western side of the Appalachian Mountains. No one from an English colony crossed the mountains until the 1670’s.

7/12/2021 at 7:17 PM

Thank you, Kathie. The Bunch connection showing a fantasy threw me, because the Bunch tree is well studied. It didn’t seem like the professionals who worked on it for President Obama would allow for nonsense.

7/12/2021 at 7:19 PM

Did South Carolina record marriages with native women? No, right?

So it seems “Amy Winigum” was “white” and so was this Paul Bunch?

7/12/2021 at 7:35 PM

4. [?] Paul5 Bunch, born about 1720–25, married Amy [Naomi?] Winigum on 28 April 1648 in Orangeburg, South Carolina, was described in the register as a resident of Amelia. 115. Some of the Gibson clan also settled in Amelia Township in 1735.

https://cnnespanol.cnn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/descendancy_f... Page 22

7/12/2021 at 7:36 PM

Yes, it is “Winningham.”

115 Paul Bunch married Amy [Naomi?] Winigum on 28 April 1748 in the church at Orangeburg[h], South Carolina. Mary, daughter of Paul and Naomi Bunch, was born “71th” [17?] July 1750, and their daughter Elizabeth was born “17th” April 1752, with Mary Bunch, Joseph Joyner, and Winifred Joyner witnesses. Naomi Bunch married John Joyner Jr. after the publication of banns on 23 December 1755. (Was this Paul’s widow or his sister?) Gideon Bunch witnessed the baptism of Charles, son of Nathaniel and Winifred Joyner, who was born on 27 September 1751. A.S. Salley Jr., The History of Orangeburg County, South Carolina: From Its First Settlement to the Close of the Revolutionary War (Orangeburg, South Carolina: R. Lewis Berry, 1898), pages 109, 119, 132, and 134. Paul’s (first?) wife might be the Amy Winningham born 11 August 1733 in Bristol Parish, Virginia, daughter of Thomas and Mary Winningham. Churchill Gibson Chamberlayne, The Vestry Book and Register of Bristol Parish, Virginia, 1720–1789 (Richmond: privately printed, 1898), page 389. Thomas Winningham sold the land he lived on in Prince George County on 8 April 1718. Benjamin B. Weisiger III, Prince George County, Virginia Wills and Deeds, 1713– 1728 ([Richmond]: by the author, 1973), page 27. The plat mapping out Thomas Winningham’s 300 acres on Santee River in Amelia Township, Berkeley County, and half acre Town lot #101 certified 2 June 1738 is now online through the “Colonial Plat Books,” South Carolina Department of Archives and History (Online: SCDAH, 2011), http://www.archivesindex.sc.gov/onlinearchives/Thumbnails.aspx?reco..., accessed 23 May 2012. It is curious that a number of the Bunch family in Orangeburg were apparently Loyalists during the Revolution. Murtie June Clark, Loyalists in the Southern Campaign of the Revolutionary War, Volume I (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1981), page 203.

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