Raca Knobloch (N.N.) - Bertha Knoblauch

Greetings.

The pictured Raca Knobloch (maiden name unknown), was my paternal great great grandmother; married to Shraga Josef Knobloch. ("Shraga" translates, from Polish, to "Philip".) Shraga Josef and Raca seem to have lived in Tarnow, now, Poland.

My grandfather was Philip (Zalman) Knoblauch, born in Sukmanie (now Poland, maybe 13 km southwest of Tarnow) in 1884. We believe the Sukmanie address was a horse farm that belonged to Philip's parents , Shraga (Simon) Knoblauch and wife Bincha (nee, Hollander).

It seems that three of their daughters called themself "Bertha"; one became Bertha Finder (married to Dovid Finder in Tarnow) ; another became Bertha (aka Balcha) Fisch married in Reading, Pennsylvania, USA.

What was the name of the village on the birth certificate you have?

What was the last name on your great great great grandfather's certificate?

Is there any indication that the son was a Kohen? The Knobloch/Knoblauch family are Kohen.

I would think that "Raca" would translate to "Rose", but, I could be mistaken.

There certainly were many children in the Knobloch/Knoblach line with the name of "Bertha". From where do you get your "Bertha" reference?

I looked at Geni's idea of the link between you and me; and I came up with a very distant (but interesting) line:

You

→

Sidney George Knoblauch
your father

→

Philip (Zalman) Knoblauch
his father

→

Morris (Moshe) Knoblauch
his brother

→

Ruth Balis
his daughter

→

Barbara Frank
her daughter

→

Leonard Frank
her husband

→

Rose (Rasha) Frank
his mother

→

Mary (Chana Merka) Rabben
her sister

→

<private> Meyer (Rabben)
her daughter

→

<private> Meyer
her husband

→

Brian de la Harpe Meyer
his father

→

Hilda Violet Meyer, b9c13
his mother

→

Mauritz Christiaan Wilhelm Egmond van Buuren, b9
her father

→

Elizabeth Josina Maria Van Buuren
his mother

→

Elisabeth Scholtz, b1c2
her mother

→

Johanna de Waal, b6
her mother

→

Cornelis de Waal, b3
her brother

→

Hendrik Pieter de Waal, B3c8
his son

→

Catharina Elizabeth De Waal d2
his daughter

→

Cornelis Ernestus Hendrik Doyle
her son

→

Susannah Doyle
his wife

→

John Randall
her brother

→

Louis Hayward Randall
his son

→

Louisa Maude van Rensburg
his daughter

→

Norman Barry
her son

→

Sheila Riekert
his daughter

Geni is frequently wrong about choosing the shortest path between relatives; but Geni doesseem always to provide some interesting insights. The inclusion of some de Waal family is interesting, especially if they ( in the Geni lineage) are related to Edmund de Waal, who wrote the Hare with The Amber eyes.

If you wish to provide a little more info. , I would be happy to ask around the family for additional insights.

Cheers,
Joel Knoblauch

For your info.; according to Geni:

Maurice Ephrussi is Sir Henry de Waal, QC's second great uncle.

Maurice Ephrussi was husband of Béatrice Ephrussi de Rothschild.

Béatrice Ephrussi de Rothschild.was daughter of Mayer Alphonse James Rothschild and Leonora de Rothschild.

All this is to suggest that you may be , so to speak, "fishing in the correct pond", even if we aren't certain exactly how the fish are related to each other.

There is a "Knoblauch/Knobloch" discussion group on Geni; with some outstanding researcher cousins, including one from South Africa. You might want to join that discussion group.

Cheers,
Joel

Dear Sheila,

In case it is helpful, I think the following link will connect you to the Knoblauch/Knobloch discussion group:

https://www.geni.com/projects/Jewish-Families-Named-Knoblauch-Knobl...

There are some knowledgeable genealogist cousins that don't participate on Geni, too.

Cheers,
Joel

Dear Sheila,

If you would like to hire a Polish researcher to help you with research, I understand that Adam Zalewski at Genealogy Tour has been helping (some family members) to research the Knobloch/Knoblauch family living near Krakw/Tarnow. See:

https://en-gb.facebook.com/genealogy.tour/

http://genealogytour.com/

In my contact with Adam, he seemed very professional. I believe he has a university degree that supports his genealogy research. I was introduced to Adam through friends of mine who emigrated from Breslau, Poland to Reading, Pennsylvania, USA in the 1980's.. Adam is their nephew.

Adam's email: a.zalewski@genealogytour.com

Cheers,
Joel

HI Joel,

Wow... thanks for all the info!! Much appreciated. My 3x G Grandfather was known as FRIEDRICH WILHELM JACOBI VON GRABOWSKI. We do not know who his biological parents were but have been following up on a family legend that he was an illegitimate son of Wilhelm Friedrich Ludwig von Hohenzollern (German Emperor and King of Prussia, Wilhelm 1 and Polish Princess, Eliza Radziwill). A number of his descendents have done DNA tests and share DNA with other descendants of theirs. However, his Bertha Knoblauch was listed as his 'RELATIVE" . Date of BIrth, 14 October 1829 in Zallenfelde, East Prussia, Preussen. No parents listed. We believe that FW J v G was given to Bertha Knoblauch or that Bertha Knoblauch was somehow related to the Radziwills/von Grabowsky's.

Was wondering if any of Bertha's descendants know about this boy. Apparently Princess Radziwill and Wilhelm visited him on the farm.

Thanks and regards,
Sheila

The name on the Latter Day Saints birth register printout is simply FRIEDRICH WILHELM GRABOWSKI

Dear Sheila,

The plot thickens, though the reasons I think so, are tenuous. Here are some more (possible) pieces of the puzzle:

1. My parents are cousins; somewhere around 4th or 5th cousins; my father, Sidney Knoblauch was born in 1923; my mother Phyllis Knoblauch, nee Wolfgang was born in 1924;

2. Each of my parents has a DNA relationship to the Katzenellenbogen family of Rabbi Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen, know (by Jewish legend) as councilor to the Radziwill Princes (including Michel „the Orphan” Radziwill, and presumably the Radziwill prince who was Bishop of Krakow) One Day King of Poland (on August 18, 1587). See:
Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King)

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112393/jewish/King-S...

3. Cousin and genealogist specialist on the rabbinical Katzenellenbogen-Oppenheimer-Horowitz line, Edward Gelles, looked at my mother’s DNA and confirms her proximity to those Katzenellenbogen-Oppenheimer-Horowitz lines.

4. My maternal great grandmother was Frieda Yutzkovitz, nee Wohl, by legend, a descendant of R’ Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen. Frieda Wohl married R’ Samuel Moshe Yutzkovitz, burgermeister of Malyi Bereznyi, now Ukraine, by the Slovakia border. Edward Gelles speculates that Frieda Wohl May have been from the Wohl banking family of Krakow, Vienna and Switzerland;

5. My mother’s paternal great grandfather was Ferencz Wilhelm Wolfgang (born circa 1812; I have posted a photo under his Geni.com media tab), a merchant in Tokay, now Hungary . Apparently, Ferencz Wilhelm Wolfgang revered Kaiser Wilhelm. (The Wolfgang family are Levites.)

6. My Wolfgang relatives from Oradea, now Romania, owned the largest bakery in Oradea. Uncle (by marriage) Miller ran the bakery of his wife’s family; his wife being either the grandmother or aunt of my grandfather, Emil Josef Wolfgang (who was the son of Ferencz Wilhelm Wolfgang and Edna (maiden name unknown)). Uncle Miller was a very close friend of Count Tisza; and according to Geni, the Tisza family are among my relatives.

7. My extended families (who are primarily Of Jewish religion) do seem to include a variety of European Christian noble families; including Princess Elisabeth of Liechtenstein (by way of the von Gutmann family). See:

Princess Elisabeth of Liechtenstein

I have Landau family from Krakow.

8. As if the stars should/would align in just the right order (to provide us with hints); Rabbi Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen was (according to legend) Polish King August 18, 1587;
My parents’s married August 18, 1950;
I am godfather and the 16th (m/l) great granddaughter of Michel the Orphan Radziwill is godmother to two children whose maternal line includes the Horowitz/Hurewitz line. (Godmother) Ms Radziwill’s birthday is August 18.
My nephew is born August 18, 1991.

9. I understand that Tarnow, the location of Raca and Shraga Josef Knobloch’s home, was under Radziwill control. I gleaned this from reading about Radziwill intervention in a dispute over the Jewish Cemetery of Tarnow.

10. I was informed by a genealogy researcher that my great grandparents , Shraga Simon Knoblauch and wife Bincha , nee Hollander, were “stewards of the Ströz District”;

11. The origins of the Katzenellenbogen family trace back to Alsace, Lorraine, and the areas around Frankfurt am Main and Worms and Strasbourg. Perhaps by coincidence, the ruling Austria-Hungarian family of the 19th century stemmed from the Hapsburg of Lorraine line. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lorraine

Those are my thoughts, at the moment.

My mother’s and my DNA info is available on 23andme and on GedMatch, if anyone wants to compare.

You are welcome to contact me by email ; joelknoblauch@aol.com. By email I would be happy to exchange phone numbers.

Cheers,
Joel

Ps: Because he seems also to have many relatives that might figure in the discussion, I should mention that E Randol Schoenberg (grandson of composer Arnold Schoenberg and apparent relative of the Bloch-Bauer family of Vienna) is my mother’s and my 23andme DNA cousin; likely by way of his mother (through Zeisl), and through his paternal grandmother (through Hoffmann-Kolisch.)

Dear Sheila,

Perhaps I should add the tidbit from my maternal Yutzkovitz/Juskowitz/Juskovics/Justin cousin, Jeff Justin.

Jeff tells me that an ancestor was the nephew of Catherine the Great (of Russia).

I don’t know any more details about the above.

I recall being informed that one of the kings, perhaps of Sweden or Poland, or of both, had a Jewish mistress (his favorite), with whom he had a son and two daughters; the son was brought up Christain, while the daughters were raised Jewish.

Also, from a Romanov descendant and genealogist, I was informed that the brother of Tzar Nicholas was well known to have mistresses.

Cheers,
Joel

If you look back at my Knoblauch/Knobloch family history there is report of an early relationship of Knoblauch in Frankfurt am Main being a friend, financier and coin trader with future the Prince (future Kaiser); see: http://www.judengasse.de/ehtml/H034.htm

As Knoblauch (of Frankfurt am Main) seems to disappear from the histories, Rothschild seems to have replaced Knoblauch in Knoblauch’s role as financier to the Prince.

There is indication that Knoblauch and Rothschild were relatives; such as the grave of Gudle Straus (Rothschild) zum Knoblauch; see:

Gudle Strauss

I read also that the King of Bavaria (this would be a Wittelsbach) granted to Knoblauch (in Frankfurt am Main) a patent to coin money (I believe there is a recorded document.)

I believe the Hirsch/de Hirsch family (eventually including Baron Moritz de Hirsch) are relatives too of Knoblauch (of Frankfurt am Main) . I noticed too that after Knoblauch seems to have faded from the Frankfurt am Maun scene, Hirsch developed into an important financier to the Bavarian nobles.

Hirsch/de Hirsch family was also related to Bischoffsheim, Bamberger, Goldschmidt, Rothschild , Belmont, etc.

Wittelsbach family was related to Hapsburg.

The Wittelsbach family was also related to Hohenzollern; see, for maria hohenzollern wittelsbach:

https://gw.geneanet.org/sanchiz?lang=en&amp;n=hohenzollern+wittelsb...

Interestingly, the place of marriage was Bad KrEUZNACH.

The translation of “garlic” (English)/ “Knoblauch” (German) to Polish is “ czosnek”.. Over the years, I have read that “ czosnek” and “KrEUZNACH” are the same .

Cheers,
Joel

I forgot to mention that there is a heraldic shield listed for Knoblauch in East Prussia. There are about 13 heraldic shields associated with the name “Knoblauch/Knobloch”. I can email you an excerpt showing the shields, or you can refer to the reference book:

Armorial General, by Riestsap

I recollect that a General Knoblauch (under whom served the future Baron von Stueben) won an important battle , maybe against the Russians, and was awarded title of Baron. Were Knoblauch Jewish, at the time, he would have needed to convert to Christianity to become a Baron .

There was another General Knoblauch who served the English as a Hessian mercenary in America. Apparently, after his service in North America, he returned to England, then Germany.

It’s difficult to know if the various Knoblauch’s were relatives, but there do seem to be intriguing overlaps of histories, including between Jewish and Christian Knoblauch families.

(I wish more family would compare DNA.)

These overlaps especially intrigue me and the descendants of the Berlin Knoblauch family; see family related to Berlin Knoblauchhaus Museum:

https://www.en.stadtmuseum.de/knoblauchhaus-museum

Interestingly, a Berlin Knoblauch was architect for the Radziwill Palace in Berlin, which, subsequently, became the Old Reichstag.

Cheers,
Joel

Perhaps you can follow what is going on in the following entry pertaining to a Betty von Knoblauch; I cannot follow what is presented:

https://books.google.com/books/about/Gothaisches_genealogisches_Tas...

Dear Sheila,

Your relatives are welcome to compare their DNA to mine. Let me know if there is anything I need to do to facilitate a comparison. My paternal Knoblauch/Knobloch 3rd cousin Howard Matson (with whom I share Raca Knobloch and Shraga Josef Knobloch as great great grandparents) has also done his DNA on 23andme.com.

Having taken some time to mull over the various bits of information, I have come up with some ideas; see below.

1. It seems that my great great grandmother Raca Knobloch, wife of Shraga Josef Knobloch of Tarnow is unlikely the same person as the "Bertha" Knoblauch" to whom you referred: you wrote:

"Bertha Knoblauch was listed as his 'RELATIVE" . Date of BIrth, 14 October 1829 in Zallenfelde, East Prussia, Preussen. No parents listed.

Given the frequency of the name Bertha in my Knoblauch/Knobloch family, perhaps your "Bertha" was an ancestor of Shraga Josef Knobloch.

2. There does seem to have been a historical tie between my ancestors ( who descended from the Katzenellenbogen famiy) and the Radziwill family. Whether that relationship was purely professional, or also included some blood relationships is a matter of speculation; it is not beyond belief that the Royals could have placed a child with descendants of the trusted Katzenellenbogen family;

3. The Grabow/Graowski family does seem to have had a tie to the family of the Kaiser. I recollect reading that at leas one of the Prussian royals had been reared by a trusted Grabow,

4. About Betty von Knoblauch; it appears that
my earlier reference, above, to https://books.google.com/books/about/Gothaisches_genealogisches_Tas... did not show the information I intended the link to display.

I will try again, to provide some useful links::

About Betty von Knoblauch; it appears that (a) Ottilie Wilhelmine Betty von Knoblauch 1834-1914 is a child of Friedrich Wilhelm von Knoblauch:

https://books.google.com/books?id=f3EPAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA430&amp;lpg...

5. A link; about Friedrich Wilhelm von Knoblauch:

https://gw.geneanet.org/jrdus?lang=en&amp;pz=friedrich+oskar+walter...

Friedrich Wilhelm von Knoblauch

Born in 1798
Deceased in 1852, aged 54 years old
Rittmeister und Gutsbesitzer, Herr auf Pessin

Spouses and children

With Pauline von Bardeleben 1811-1884 with
F Ottilie Wilhelmine Betty von Knoblauch 1834-1914
F Laura von Knoblauch 1836-1904
F Pauline Ernestine Elisabeth von Knoblauch 1843-1904

Sources

Individual:
- Geschichte des Geschlechts von Kleist - III. Teil Dritte Abteilung - G.H. Knypke - Berlin 1885, Trowitzsch und Sohn - Muttrin-Damensche Linie III
- wikipedia.de

6. AND, about Wilhelm I, German Emperor and King of Prussia:

http://www.unofficialroyalty.com/march-22-daily-featured-royal-date/

Cheers,
Joel

PS: I am still curious about your link to the de Waal family; and whether you and I are related through de Waal.

It seems my parents' families were (however distantly) related to the banking Rothschild family; the family of Edmund de Waal (author of "the Hare with Amber Eyes") is related to the Eohrussi family; and Maurice de Waal married Beatrice Ephrussi Rothschild.

Any thoughts?

Here is some additional info. that I have readily available, here it is: remember, my parents were cousins, both of Jewish origin:

Family Finder/Family Tree Info.:
4/3/19: for Joel Knoblauch
Kit: B501512

4/3/19: for Phyllis Knoblauch ( nee Wolfgang ; Joel‘s mother)
Kit: B501818

New as of April 2018.
GEDMATCH GENESIS:
Phyllis Knoblauch: kit # RT1353135
Joel Knoblauch: kit # DQ3488072

Joel Knoblauch haplogroups:
Paternal: Now my haplogroup is J-P58, a subgroup of J-M267, aka J1a-P58. (This is the Jewish Kohen haplogroup)

Maternal: K1a1b1a which covers north Afrika, Western Europe and Eastern Europe

Also; additional links:

https://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I2828...

Friedrich Wilhelm Jacoby von Grabowsky, SV/PROG

https://www.geni.com/discussions/199123

HI Joel,

Thanks very very much for all this work and effort. I am going to check my DNA and get back to you.
Best regards,
Sheila

HI Joel,

Thanks very very much for all this work and effort. I am going to check my DNA and get back to you.
Best regards,
Sheila

HI Joel,

MY DNA / FAMILY FINDER IN72944

There is a link to ancestral name Bronstein via Nancy Goldberg.

Dear Sheila,

I looked up Princess Eliza Radziwill on Geni; and saw that Geni connects Princess Eliza and me through the Wertheimer family:

Eliza Fryderyka Luiza Marta Radziwiłł h. Trąby

(I am connected to the Wertheimer family more directly than through my 2nd cousin's wife (Michele Wertheimer Fredman), but that is a different matter.)

The end of the genealogical pathway is what interested me in regard to your 3x Gr Grandfather von Grabowski.

The Geni info connecting Princess Eliza Radziwill and me is:

Eliza Fryderyka Luiza Marta Radziwiłł h. Trąby is your second cousin's wife's second great uncle's wife's great aunt's husband's niece's husband's niece's husband's mother's ex-partner's sister's husband's father's partner.

You

→

Sidney George Knoblauch
your father

→

Rose Knoblauch
his mother

→

Bessie Falkowitz Fredman
her sister

→

The Hon. Samuel George Fredman
her son

→

Neil Fredman
his son

→

Michele Wertheimer Fredman
his wife

→

Norman Wertheimer
her father

→

Morris Michael Wertheimer
his father

→

Joseph Wertheimer
his father

→

Michael Wertheimer
his brother

→

Bertha Wertheimer
his wife

→

Pauline Bauland
her mother

→

Kehle Lindauer
her mother

→

Henriette Einstein
her sister

→

Hajim (Henry) Einstein
her husband

→

Rebekka Levi
his sister

→

Julia Seligmann
her daughter

→

Leopold (Lippmann) Seligmann
her husband

→

Henry Seligmann
his brother

→

Georgette Julie Cornwallis-West
his daughter

→

Maj. George Frederick Myddelton Cornwallis-West
her husband

→

Mary Adelaide Virginia Eupatoria Cornwallis-West
his mother

→

Edward VII, King of the United Kingdom
her ex-partner

→

Victoria, Princess Royal, German Empress & Queen of Prussia
his sister

→

Frederick III, German Emperor
her husband

→

Wilhelm I, Deutscher Kaiser
his father

→

Eliza Fryderyka Luiza Marta Radziwiłł h. Trąby
his partner

Does the afore-wrtten shed any new light?

Cheers,
Joel Knoblauch

Reading, PA