R' Shimon Wolf Isserles - Recent Revisions may be incorrect

Started by Michael Tabacinic on Wednesday, March 11, 2020
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3/11/2020 at 4:41 PM

Netanel Isaiah Frisch, I see that you changed many parts of this profile, namely:
- the gender,
- the first name,
- the last name and birth surname,
- added a date of death.
- subsequently merged it with a different profile.

Do you have any sources pointing to Rabbi Moses ben Israel Isserles, "RaMA" having a son named Shimon Wolf? And anything about that Shimon having a son named Samson Wolf? It would be surprising that Samson, a grandson of the RaMa, would chose to give up his last name and instead use his father's middle name as a last name - this is why it was assumed that Shimon Wolf was not a son but a son-in-law of the RaMa.

However, when my grandfather originally added Samson Wolf Isserles as the grandson of the RaMa, it was as the father of Yenta Wolf, wife of the Shach (Yenta Leah Katz). This apparently is not correct in the first place - therefore, unless you have sources regarding the RaMa having a son named Shimon Wolf Isserles and his son being Samson Wolf, I propose we delete both these profiles:
Samson Wolf Isserles
R' Shimon Wolf Isserles

Yigal Burstein, do you agree? Or have anything to add/correct to the above?

3/11/2020 at 11:44 PM

The father of Yenta Leah Katz named after his uncle.
Rema mentioned him and his older brother Yehuda Leib in Shu"t Rema. Also he buried in krakow.
Shut Rema, Elef Margaliot, Yichus Brief published by rabbi Shlomo Engelard.

3/12/2020 at 2:52 AM

Netanel - could you please add the quotation(s) as it appears in the source, and the source to the relevant profiles

3/12/2020 at 6:17 AM

Yenta’s father is on Geni as Isaac (Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna). He did have an uncle named Shimon (Shimon Wulfe Meisels), son of Simcha (Simcha Bunim Meisels [ABD Krakow, ReMA s-in-law]).

Simcha however was not the RaMa’s son, he was his son-in-law. This is why the original profile for R' Shimon Wolf Isserles was as a female of unknown name, daughter of the RaMa.

Based on all this, it sounds like, if anything, the original unmerged female profile of R' Shimon Wolf Isserles should actually have been merged with Dreizel (Therese) Bunim-Meisels, and Samson Wolf Isserles with Shimon Wulfe Meisels.

3/12/2020 at 6:20 AM

Sorry, Yenta’s father is on Geni as Simcha Shimon, not Isaac. Not sure how to edit my post.

3/12/2020 at 6:31 AM

1. Yehuda Leib son of Rema- Shu't Rema Answer 122
His son Shimon Wolf also Mentioned but yet find.
2. Quote from Elef Margaliot- ''לא ברור לנו על סמך מה נכתב שהיו לרמ''א ארבעה בנים ובת. ידועים לנו: א. הרב יהודה ליב R' Yehuda Leib. ב. הרב שמעון וולף R' Shimon Wolf, נפטר בקראקא ביום ד' ו' אב שנ''ט. ג. מרת דרעזיל אשת רבי שמחה בונים מייזלש. ד.מלכה זוגת הרב אליעזר ליזר גינצבורג. ה. מרת שרה, אולי היא שנישאה לרבי צבי הירש צויזמר.
3. https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46421&st=&pgn...

3/13/2020 at 4:18 PM

1. This says:
שלומכם ושלותכם יסגא מאוד בני יניק וחכים כמר יהודה הנקרא ליב שיחיה לאורך ימים עם חבירך יעקב שיחיה עם שאר חבירים הש"י יגדלכם לתורה ולמעשים טובים
Which roughly translates to:
"Much peace to you all and all of yours my young and wise sons, like the Mr. Yehuda called Leib may you live till the end of days with your friend Yakov, may you live with the rest of the friends הש"י (not sure what this is), may you all grow in Torah and good deeds."
The RaMa then proceeds to answer a question about tefillin.

Firstly, please correct my translation if it is wrong. Specifically "כמר", which, because of the "כ", I understand this as the ReMa comparing his "sons" (the ones who asked the tefillin question) to a Mr. Yehuda Leib and his friend Yaakov.
Secondly, I'm not sure that בני in this context means literally "my sons" - it could be the same way a Rabbi today might call a young congregant "my son", or it might be the way a father-in-law today might call his son-in-law "my son" - but that would depend on other texts of the same era.
Thirdly, if the way this actually translates actually means the RaMa had a son named Yehuda Leib, it ALSO would mean he had a son named Yaakov.

2. This source roughly translates as:
"It is not clear to us based on what is written that RMA had four sons and a daughter. We know:
a. Rabbi Yehuda Leib.
b. Rabbi Shimon Wolf, died in Krakow on Wednesday the 6th of AV 5359 (July 28th 1599).
c. Mrs. Dresil The wife of Rabbi Simcha Bunim Meiselsh
d. Malca the wife of Rabbi Eliezer Leizer Ginzburg.
e. Mrs. Sarah, perhaps she was the one who married Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Tsuizmer."

Elef Margaliot was published in 1993 so not really a primary source, but I'm assuming that he put his own sources in his own notes. Can you see what he states as his source for "knowing" that the ReMa had a son named Rabbi Yehuda Leib and a son named Rabbi Shimon Wolf?

3. Roughly translates as:
"The sons of the gaon Moshe Isserles:
a. he had one son and his name was Wolf (note 17 - "understand that my source does specifically state that he is the ReMa's son because he had no other source, but it is understood from context". Also note 17 - "his name is the name for his nephew Rabbi Shimon Wolf, the father-in-law of the Sha'ch, great-grandson of the R'Ma"), the son-in-law of Bundil or Zundil of Kamenetz father of Rabbi Heschel of Krakow"

I think that the "Understood from context" is the issue here:
Maybe he's assuming that because the father-in-law of the Sha'ch (Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna) is the great-grandson of the R'Ma, that his uncle Shimon Wolf must therefore be the R'Ma's son or grandson. However, Simcha Simon Wolf is the great-grandson of the Rema through his mother's (Leah Bunim Meisels) mother (Dreizel (Therese) Bunim-Meisels).

3/14/2020 at 12:33 PM

1. You translate incorrect. i won't translate this pharses but say what it means exactly.
Yehuda Leib- Rema wise son
Yakov- friend of Yehuda Leib.
2. The sources of Elef Margaliot are the Rema itself.
3. Again incorrect translate. Shimon Wolf the father in law of Schach was named after his uncle, the son of Rema. Rabbi Heschel was great-grandson of Rabbi Zundel of Krements.
This Yichus Brief is very reliable becuase it started to written in the 1700S'

3/15/2020 at 12:36 PM

1. & 2. If the only place the ReMa refers to Yehuda Leib as his son is in source #1, that’s not a very clear source, and it would be surprising that it wouldn’t be mentioned anywhere else. Also, like I said, it is not unheard of for a father-in-law to refer to his son-in-law as “beni”.

Saying that “ The sources of Elef Margaliot are the Rema itself” is not helpful at all without saying where in the ReMa. Does Elef Margaliot mention where in the Rema “we know” this from? Hopefully his source is a new source different from source #1, for the reason I wrote above.

3. Will look at this later when I’m on a computer.

3/15/2020 at 3:14 PM

For #3.

Note 17 says:
וטשטיין, לתולדות ישראל וחכמיו בפולין בתוך:, האשכול כרך ששי, עמ׳ 235. וטשטיין, שם, אינו קובע מסמרות שמדובר אכן בבנו של הרמ״א, שעל קיומו לא ידע ממקור אחר; ואולם מתוך כתב היחוס (להלן כתה״י) שלפנינו מתברר שקיומו של רש״וו אינו מוטל בספק, וע״כ אין מקום עוד לספיקותיו. לדעת וטשטיין, על שמו של רש״וו זה נקרא אחיינו הקצין ומנהיג רבי ׳שמעון וואלף׳ חותנו הגאון הש״ך, נינו של רבינו הרמ״א כמבואר להלן

This is his source (לתולדות ישראל וחכמיו בפולין / מאת פ"ה ווטשטיין):
על בניו של הרמ"א יש להוסיף, כפי הנראה, עת הר"ר שמעון וואלף, שניפטר פה יום ו" אב שנט שנ"ט, כמ"ש ~~~ בפנקס הח"ק דף נ"ד ע"א: "ונשמת הר"ר שמעין וואלף במהר"ר משה ר"א זצ"ל יו` ד` ו` שנ"ט" ~~~. וקרוב הדבר, כי על שמו נקרא בן בנה של אחותו (מרת דרעזיל בת הרמ"א ואשת ר` בונם מייזלש) והוא הקצין והאלוף ר` וואלף, ראש ומנהיג בעיר ווילנא, שהיה חותן בעל הש"ך ואחיו של הג"מ משה בעל מהדורא בתרא (חתן מהרש"א) ב"ר בונם (ב"ר אברהם) מייזלש חתן הרמ"א.

And THAT source says "it appears to be" (כפי הנראה) based on another source (which I put in between ~~~ but can't determine what book or author it is) which just refers to:
"ונשמת הר"ר שמעין וואלף במהר"ר משה ר"א זצ"ל". Not sure if it's a typo, or if that was his name, but it seems to be saying that משה ר"א is the ReMa?

The remainder of the paragraph in that source says that it would make sense (וקרוב הדבר), since his sister Dreizel's son was named after him. But Draizel's son could also have been named after him if he was married to Draizel's sister rather than being Draizel's brother. So this doesn't really bring much.

3/16/2020 at 5:14 AM

1. For Yehuda Leib the source is Shut Rema. about his son in law R' Simcha Bunim and R' Leizer Ginzburg the Rema call them ''חתני'' and for R' Leizer father ''מחותני''. So when the Rema write ''בני יניק וחכים'' he means that he write for his son.
You can disqulify any source if you write that the writer didn't meant for what wrote.
3. We have 2 (or 3 but yet find the Shut Rema quote) sources about Shimon Wolf.
*The Yichus Brief published by Rabbi Shlomo Engelard. It started to be written in *1680 for the father in law of the Schach (Rabbi Shimon Wolf Vilner). Over the years, the descendants added them to the manuscript.
The second source is the burial of Shimon Wolf in Krakow quoted by Wattstein. He wasn't sure that Shimon Wolf is Rema son, but we are Surly.
נשמת הר''ר שמעון וואלף במהר''ר משה ר''א זצ''ל-
The soul of Rabbi Shimon Wolf son of our Rabbi Moshe (son of) Rabbi Israel Zt''l.
רמ''א- רבי משה איסרלש (בן ישראל)- Rema- Rabbi Moshe (son of) Isserles.

Dreisel Meisles died in 1602 at age 40. She was born from Rema second wife, Kreindel daughter of Rabbi Moshe Eberles. Shimon Wolf born from the first wife. Wattstein quote his grave that he is son of moshe.

4/17/2020 at 1:56 PM

Ok so it sounds like the Rema did (or at least may) have a son named Shimon Wolf. Is there any record of R' Shimon Wolf Isserles having a son named Samson Wolf Isserles?

As I said above, when my grandfather originally created the profile for Samson Wolf Isserles, it was as the father of Yenta, wife of the Shach (Yenta Leah Katz), and as the grandson of the Rema. Clearly his records had the name was wrong, and that Samson Wolf Isserles should have been Rabbi Simon-Binyamin son Isaac Wolf Meisels, of Vilna.

Therefore, if there is no record of R' Shimon Wolf Isserles having a son named Samson Wolf Isserles, we should delete Samson Wolf Isserles.

Netanel Isaiah Frisch and Yigal Burstein, can you confirm that we should delete that profile?

4/20/2020 at 3:23 AM

I guess you added him so feel free to delete him

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