Need Assitance Verifying Family Connections

Started by Debbie Gambrell on Friday, May 15, 2020
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Related Projects:

Showing 1-30 of 73 posts
5/15/2020 at 8:49 PM

@N.N., daughter of Theodora

I'm totally confused on this one and maybe I'm just needing some clarification. I can't find anything documenting the parentage of this profile. When I go to the Wikipedia link for her connected parents, they have no children at all listed and, in fact, it states that her supposed father left no children and was succeeded by his nephew:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I -

When he died on 14 November 565, he left no children, though his wife Theodora had given birth to a stillborn son several years into his reign. He was succeeded by Justin II, who was the son of his sister Vigilantia and married to Sophia, the niece of Empress Theodora.

In the excerpt above it says the nephew was the son if Justinian I's sister Vigilantia and also that Justinian I's mother was also named Vigilantia, so maybe they've gotten some info on the same-name folks jumbled up. Regardless, no child by the name of Balbila-II-Theodora- is showing up for either couple. When I Google Balbila-II-Theodora to find more info, it actually takes me to the profile of Justinian I's wife and since she can't be her own child, that doesn't help.

The Wikipedia page on Justinian I's sister, mother of his nephew Justin II, states that the name of their is unknown:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigilantia

Their father was named Sabbatius, while the name of their mother is not actually recorded

If this is true, then it's an error that both Justinian I and his nephew are listed with mothers of the same name on Wikipedia, which could indicate that the lines have been confused.

Justinian II's Wikipedia page repeats the information about him succeeding his uncle and, once again, no children are mentioned for Justinian I:

Justinian I died on the night of 14 to 15 November 565. Callinicus [pl], the praepositus sacri cubiculi, seems to have been the only witness to his dying moments, and later claimed that Justinian had designated "Justin, Vigilantia's son" as his heir in a deathbed decision.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_II

Granted, I don't have access to every resource for research, but I was unable to find any historical documentation on a descendant named Balbila or any children for Emperor Justinian I and Empress Theodora, Emperor.

The information in their supposed daughter's profile really doesn't validate anything. The information in Justin I's and Theordora's profiles has a lot of historical information about them but doesn't mention any children other than this:

In 525, when Euphemia had died, Justin repealed the law, and Justinian managed to marry Theodora. By this point, she already had a daughter (whose name has been lost). Justinian apparently treated the daughter and the daughter's son Athanasius as fully legitimate,[7] although sources disagree whether Justinian was the girl's father.

Notice that the only daughter mentioned is biologically Theodora's before her marriage to Justinian I but does indicate her treated her as his own daughter, but no name is mentioned for her.

I would think if Balbila II (Theodora) 'the Younger', Byzantine Empress was historically accurate as the daughter of the questioned parents, there would be better documetnation on her as an Empress but since her supposed father is documented as having been succeeded as emperor by his nephew named for him, where would she fit in as Empress? Neither of her husbands were the Emperor.

Same-name connections usually put my head in a fog trying to sort them out, especially when there isn't sufficient documentation. The only clue I found about her being the daughter Theodora had before marrying Justinian I is on the Wikipedia page of her husband Flavius ​​Probus Sabinian Pompey Alexander, where is states:

"He took to himself in marriage to Theodora, the daughter of Theodora, wife of Justinian 1 of the emperor, in marriage, and brought him to"

So, what evidence I can find indicates this Theodora was actually Justinian's step-daughter/adopted daughter born to Theodora by an unnamed man back when she was an actress and prostitute before marrying Justinian. At least she is named here as Theodora. Still the name Balbila isn't used. I simply can't find where that comes from. In any case, there is no hyperlink to his wife Theodora to a page about her and her being an Empress. Not from her husband's Wikipedia page nor from her mother's or Justinian's, whom I believe wasn't her biological father.

My interest in all this is that these are supposed direct ancestors for me and I'd like to know if the connections and subsequent pathways are correct.

Thanks so very much for any clarification, assistance and/or correction on these connections.

5/15/2020 at 9:04 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasius_(consul_517)

He married Theodora, born c. 515, natural daughter of Empress Theodora, although Emperor Justinian I apparently treated her and her son Athanasius as fully legitimate,[3] ...

So ... right mother, and father was her “legal” father.

5/15/2020 at 9:05 PM

This book that gives a lot of detailed information about Justinian I and Theodora only mentions the daughter she had some years before their marriage and whose name is unknown:

https://books.google.com/books?id=zdT5vUqZI8AC&pg=PT90&lpg=...

5/15/2020 at 9:10 PM

BUT, how did the name Balbila II get attached to the wife Theodora? Shouldn't she just be Theodora II?

And why is she listed as a Byzantine Empress?

And shouldn't Justinian I be connected to her as an adopted father rather than biological?

5/15/2020 at 9:11 PM

Point being, I don't believe I'm a biological descendant of Justinian I as Geni shows I am.

5/15/2020 at 9:45 PM

I finally found where that bothersome name Balbila came into play:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZABSepHO1FMC&pg=PA636&lpg...

It appears to be the maiden maiden name ? of Empress Theodora's mother who elsewhere is always said to be unknown.

5/15/2020 at 9:47 PM

That last book referenced also shows a Syrian guy who is also mentioned in Wikipedia as Theodora II's father. The book shows it as genealogical connection in a tree whereas Wiki says it's unproven.

5/15/2020 at 9:49 PM

I’ve straightened up the tree a bit but will leave to Jason Scott Wills to best name and double check me.

As I understand it, Empress Théodora had an unknown lover and a daughter, whose name we do not know, at an age as young as 15. This unnamed daughter made a good marriage to Anastasius, and had at least 3 sons.

There are many references to this daughter, I’ve added a few to the profile.

5/15/2020 at 9:51 PM

Hecebolus "The Tyrian", Governor of Pentapolis Was a known lover of Théodora but we don’t know that he was the father of her daughter.

5/15/2020 at 10:04 PM

Im currently without internet connection from moving house so cant assist

5/15/2020 at 10:11 PM

Thanks, Erica. Having Justinian as her biological father would have been cool, but inaccurate and causing bad pathways. Empress Theodora certainly came from an interesting background!

Jason, no rush. I'm about to go to be myself. We're having a thunderstorm and I'm sleepy. lol

5/15/2020 at 10:15 PM

Go to bed, not go to be myself! lol

5/15/2020 at 10:36 PM

I think it’s clearer now but the husband needs investigation.

Flavius Anastasius Paulus Probus Sabinianus Pompeius Anastasius

5/15/2020 at 10:57 PM

And this child looks Mis placed. Anastasius

5/16/2020 at 6:26 AM

Erica, I'm not seeing what's wrong with the child you say is misplaced. Everything appears correct on him to me. I put some notes from his father's Wikipedia page into his profile because it details his marriages. Wikipedia has his dob as c. 530 instead of the 510 shown on Geni, so I updated that.

5/16/2020 at 6:30 AM

Wikipedia doesn't like a child named Proba for Empress Theodora's daughter and her husband Anastasius, and Proba's profile has no documentation in it.

5/16/2020 at 6:30 AM

Gosh! My brain is fried! Meant to say doesn't list, not doesn't like. lol

5/16/2020 at 6:36 AM

Erica, I noticed that you said we don't know the name of the husband of Empress Theodora's daughter, but I thought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasius_%28consul_517%29 indicates he was her husband and father of her children. ?

5/16/2020 at 9:17 AM

@Empress Septimia Zenobia Augusta (Bat-Zabbai)

Still tracing back on this line, actually trying to verify each step back to Cleopatra whom it's said Zenobia claimed descent from and is shown connected in Geni as direct for me back to Cleopatra, BUT as with the Zenobia's descendants already discussed, I'm finding contradictions.

Wikipedia says of Zenobia's parents:

Information about Zenobia's ancestry and immediate family connections is scarce and contradictory.[20] Nothing is known about her mother, and her father's identity is debated.

She bore the gentilicium (surname) Septimia,[note 1][5] and her native Palmyrene name was Bat-Zabbai (written "Btzby" in the Palmyrene alphabet,[6] an Aramaic name meaning "daughter of Zabbai")

The only gentilicium appearing on Zenobia's inscriptions was "Septimia" (not "Julia Aurelia", which she would have borne if her father's gentilicium was Aurelius),[5] and it cannot be proven that the queen changed her gentilicium to Septimia after her marriage

Wikipedia goes into a lot more detail about the debate of who her father was, but the bottom line is, there's no real certainty who he was. You just have to weigh the evidence and decide what you think is most likely, but that's not proof of anything.

Even though there are a couple of candidates laid out as her potential father, it's very clearly stated that nothing is known about her mother.

Based on all this, as much as I had it because I'd love to actually be descended from Cleopatra, it seems Zenobia should definitely be disconnected from the mother attached to her and unless you or Jason can nail down her father better than I've been able to, it would seem it's just speculation to have her connected to any parentage at all, which again leads to nothing but speculation on the entire pathway back to Cleopatra. sigh.

5/16/2020 at 9:21 AM

I must seriously need a brain vacation. I would have sworn I saw a mother listed for Zenobia but I just looked at her profile again and there's no mother, so nothing to be disconnected. So, it just boils down to her father connection being speculative.

5/16/2020 at 1:10 PM

Cleopatra is another issue, let me continue on about the Empress Theodora’s daughter & her husband.

Wikitree says that Wikipedia is wrong in identifying him and has mixed him up with someone else.

I’ll pull up the evidence for study next, it’s a little gnarly to try and articulate cleanly. But what I’ve read so far says she married well & his identity is unconfirmed.

5/17/2020 at 6:14 AM

Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't read that on Wiki saying Wikipedia is wrong. That's twice this week that I've come upon incorrect info on Wikipedia. I've always considered it well-researched and documented in most cases, but now I'm beginning to see the need to recheck everything step-by-step because it seems Wikipedia isn't as reliable as I'd believed. :(

Private User
5/17/2020 at 6:22 AM

Flavius Anastasius Paulus Probus Sabinianus Pompeius Anastasius
Can someone solve it?
3 Inconsistencies
Resolve conflicts
SmartCopyComprobación de consistencia:Anastasius, Roman Consul born before the birth of his father Flavius Probus, Consul of Byzantium.Anastasius, Roman Consul born before the birth of his father Flavius Probus, Consul of Byzantium.Anastasius, Roman Consul born before the birth of his father Flavius Probus, Consul of Byzantium.

Private User
5/17/2020 at 6:33 AM

https://www.geni.com/merge/resolve/6000000000701038714
Datos en conflicto
Estos campos entraban en conflicto tras la fusión en el perfil principal de Anastasius, Roman Consul.
Haga clic en los datos que desea conservar y luego haga clic en el botón Enviar.
Sus correcciones aparecerán en el perfil cuando Bjørn P. Brox apruebe la solicitud.
Campo Perfil principal seleccionar todos Datos Alternativos
Creado en 11/8/2008 29/1/2016 19/8/2016
Gestor Bjørn P. Brox Mickey Alan Turner Tirso de Mello Santos
Nombre Flavio Anastasio Flavio
Segundo nombre Anastasio Probus Sabinianus
Apellido Pompeyo Probus Sabinian Pompey

5/17/2020 at 4:04 PM

Private User I’d Iike to see clarification on Theodora’s daughter’s husband (if known) and 3 known sons, if you can help. I might need to undo merges.

5/17/2020 at 4:06 PM

This is what I have so far on her children:

We do know that she was the mother of (at least) three sons, born, say, 535, when she was 20, grandsons of the empress Theodora:

1. Anastasius. Anastasius married Joannina, the only daughter of General Flavius Belisarius and his wife Antonina, [5]

2. John married Georgia, daughter of Antipathy. [4] "The blessed John, who was sprung from the family of the Emperor Anastasius and also was a son of the Empress Theodora's daughter." [6]

3. Athanasius "Athanasius, son of the Empress Theodora's daughter." Also, in a German rendering of John of Ephesus, p269, Schoenfelder notes: "Athanasius appears in Bar-Hebraeus as an intermediary between Ascosnagh and Philoponus: he says: 'At that time the Empress Theodora had a grandson, by name Athanasius. . . .'. Also Michael the Syrian., p197: "Athanasius, grandson of the Empress Theodora."

https://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/viewFile/7451/4919 Page 17 of PDF

5/17/2020 at 4:09 PM
5/17/2020 at 4:29 PM

Byzantine Empresses: Women and Power in Byzantium AD 527-1204 By Lynda Garland.
Page 37. https://books.google.com/books?id=a5GFAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA37&ots...

“Theodora’s daughter made a good marriage into the wealthy family of the Emperor Anastasios.”

5/17/2020 at 5:15 PM

* Alan Cameron. Duke University, Greek, Roman and Byzantine Studies The House of Anastasius. Columbia University, pp 259-276. June 1978. Page 270. Accessed 9 April 2020. https://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/viewFile/7451/4919 page 17 of PDF shows the husband of Theodora’s daughter as (unnamed) son of Probus.

5/17/2020 at 5:24 PM

Christian Settipani makes him a son of Probus also.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=...

Showing 1-30 of 73 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion