Iohannes Moustakou - Tree Cleanup

Started by Tamás Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert on Wednesday, June 3, 2020
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Hello,

I think that it is time to clean up the tree around Ioannes Mystacon.
First, let us go over the genealogically relevant information about Moustakon that is known. He originated from Thrace, was the military commander of Armenia, and married Placidia. As far as genealogy is concerned, this is all.
Sources: Christian Settipani, Continuité des élites à Byzance durant les siècles obscurs: les princes caucasiens et l'empire du VIe au IXe siècle, pg 122-126
For Placidia’s family: The House of Anastasius by Alan Cameron, pg 273. https://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/viewFile/7451/4919

The Geni tree, as it currently stands, has Moustakon as the son of Ióannés and Praeiecta, and the father of Florus Valentinian, N.N., son of Johannes Moustakon Arscruni (who is the father of Manuel Arshakuni ) and Euphemia of Byzantium.

Right off the bat, there is no proof for any of these connections except to his wife. They originate from theoretical exercises by historians and genealogists like Settipani and their current representation on Geni is a confused mishmash of the four different, purely hypothetical, genealogical trees that Settipani constructs in his book Continuité des élites à Byzance durant les siècles obscurs: les princes caucasiens et l'empire du VIe au IXe siècle.

I managed to get my hands on Settipani’s book (thank you, University of Texas at Austin, for sending it to me!) and the reasoning that Settipani uses goes something like this: The 7th century Armenian historian, Sebeos, mentions that Constans II, Eastern Roman Emperor supported a marriage between a relative of his and Prince Smbat V of Armenia and Sebeos also later mentions that the father-in-law of Smbat is Manuel Arshakuni. Now, how is Constans II related to Manuel Arshakuni? It cannot be through Constans II’s ancestors because the idea of them having Armenian origin has been disproved. See this discussion: https://www.geni.com/discussions/213651?msg=1392380 Therefore it could be through Constans II’s father-in-law, Valentinus, which makes sense because he was Armenian. So, Settipani assumes that Valentinus and Manuel are possibly brothers (a big assumption but somewhat reasonable as they are both from the Arsacid dynasty) (pg 117-8).

The name Valentinus for an Armenian prince is unusual, as Valentinus is a Roman name, not Armenian, and his daughter married a Roman prince, so Settipani postulates that maybe he had some Roman blood (pg 123). In order for him to be both Armenian and Roman there would need to be an alliance between Armenians and Romans in his ancestry. Now an example of this kind of alliance happened in the engagement between Artabanes and Praeiecta. This engagement was called off, but Artabanos clearly liked Roman women, so maybe he later remarried to a Roman woman and perhaps had a child with this possible Roman woman, and that child could have, theoretically, been Valentinus himself, or perhaps Valentinus’ father. Since there may have to be an intermediate generation between Valentinus and Artabanos, perhaps that man was Iustinus, military commander of Armenia in 606, for no other reason than that he fits the time-frame nicely. Settipani constructs three different family trees to imagine how this connection could have played out (pg 124-125).

Settipani also has a second hypothesis for that intermediate generation between Artabanos and Valentinus. Because Valentinus is called Valentinus, perhaps he is a distant descendent of the Roman Emperor Valentian III through his mother. Now there are three documented descendants of Valentian III in the sixth century. Of two of them nothing is known, so they are not useful, but one of them is Placidia, who married Ioannes Mystacon, and Moustakon (which was probably a nickname based on his moustache) is a figure whose life historians know a bit about. He was from Thrace, but since he was military commander of Armenia, Settipani suggests that he may have been of Armenian descent (as some military commanders of Armenia were) and since Artabanos was the military commander of Thrace, this also fits conveniently (pg 125-126).

To recap this complicated narrative: Settipani starts from the assumption that Valentinus and Manuel are brothers, then, because Valentinus is a Roman name, Settipani assumes that he had Roman ancestry as well as Armenia. Then, Settipani assumes that because of this he is the son or grandson of Artabanes, military commander of Thrace and of Armenian origin, because Artabanes had a failed engagement to a Roman woman. Next, Settipani can take his pick of military commanders of Armenia to fill the missing generation. Then, Settipani hypothesizes that Valentinus is a distant descendant of Valentian III because of the similarity in their names, this means that Settipani settles on Moustakon as a likely pick, because he assumes that he might theoretically be Armenian.

Now, where does this leave the Geni tree? I count at least 5 major assumptions in Settipani’s narrative, each without a shred of real historical evidence. Settipani is using these hypothetical family trees like this one to make an argument for the continuity of political power from the Roman Empire through the Dark Ages, challenging the traditional historiography that shows a sharp break between the Roman Empire and the Medieval world. Settipani’s prospographical/onomastic approach to Moustakon’s genealogy, while intriguing, unfortunately does not meet the requirements of the genealogical proof standard which we try to follow on Geni. Therefore, my suggestions would be to disconnect Ioannes Mystacon from his parents (perhaps with a note in his profile mentioning Settipani’s theory). Also, disconnect all of Moustakon’s children. I would not put Valentinus and Manuel Arshakuni as brothers, since their true relation is not known, just that they may have been related in some way (a note on their profiles is sufficient to demonstrate this).

Does anyone have any thoughts on this or sources to contribute to this discussion?

Sincerely,
Tamas Caldwell-Gilbert

Tamas, thank you for your analysis. i agree that the theories are interesting but should not be represented as fact in Geni's tree.

I agree with your plan to cut these relationships and replace them with commentary in the About of the profiles, I'd suggest also as brief Curator Note for each and Relationship Locks.

Have you considered a project which all the involved profiles can be linked to?

I do not have specific knowledge of this era/ location but i seem to either manage or curate some of these profiles, please feel free to "adopt" any of them from me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mystacon

I like the idea of a project that’s essentially this post https://www.geni.com/discussions/213787?msg=1392925 and reducing the geni tree to “what we know.”

Thank you for all your hard work on this, Tamas.

Thank you all for your responses. I think that a project is a great idea. Here is what I came up with (I included images of Settipani's genealogical charts) https://www.geni.com/projects/Hypothetical-Genealogical-Connections... I could not think of a nice and concise name, so this is the best I could come up with.

I cut apart the tree as I had suggested above, added notes to the profiles mentioning Settipani's theories and linked to the project. I also locked the relationships on the profiles involved. For the sake of consistency I also slightly renamed some of the profiles to follow the versions of the names given in Martindale's The Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire, Volume III: A.D. 527–641.

A couple remaining cleanup issues: Praeiecta is currently listed as the grandmother of Epiphania through a daugher, Vigilantia. If true this would be a very important genealogical link between the Justinian and Heraclian dynasties. As such it is quite glaring that neither Martindale nor Settipani mention this connection, so I suspect that this connection is just incorrect.

Also, neither Martindale, Settipani, or Alan Cameron (https://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/viewFile/7451/4919) list Anastasia Aerobinda as a sister of Placidia.

Very nice, Tamas. Now it won’t get “lost. “

Trying to track where this comes from, makes a link to the Visigoths:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasius_(consul_517)_

Areobindus (born c. 550), married and had, apparently:[citation needed]

Anastasia Areobinda (born c. 570), married to Peter Augustus (c. 550 - 602),[citation needed] curopalates and brother of Emperor Maurice, killed at the same time as his brother, and had female issue:

Flavia Juliana (born c. 590), married to Athanagild (born c. 585), the son of Saint Hermenegild and wife Ingund, Princess of the Franks, and paternal grandson of Liuvigild, the Visigoth King of Hispania[citation needed]

Ardabastus (Ardabast, Ardebart)

Erwig, king of the Visigoths

Flavia Juliana

Curator note: Her ancestry is speculative. According to Salazar y Castro she was a relative of the Emperor Mauricius.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwig

Parentage[edit]
According to the 9th-century Chronicle of Alfonso III, Erwig was the son of Ardabast, who had journeyed from the Byzantine Empire to Hispania during the time of Chindasuinth, and married Chindasuinth's niece Goda.[3] Ardabast (or Artavasdos), was probably an Armenian or Persian Christian exile in Constantinople or in Byzantine Africa. In Hispania he was made a count.[4]

17th-century Spanish genealogist Luis de Salazar y Castro gave Ardabast's father as Athanagild, the son of Saint Hermenegild and Ingund, and his mother as Flavia Juliana, a daughter of Peter Augustus and niece of the Emperor Maurice.[5] This imperial connection is disputed by Christian Settipani, who says that the only source for Athanagild's marriage to Flavia Julia is José Pellicer, who he claims to be a forger.[6]

Ervigio, King of the Visigoths

Tamás Flinn Caldwell-Gilbert Thanks for posting this. I follow two of the profiles mentioned and so they must be in my direct tree line (for now) and I am all about finding truth. Let's find it. Susanne

Hi All,

Re:"This tree has been isolated from other trees on Geni: Tree is fictional"

I am by no means professional genealogist and therefore dont quite know how to react to my 50th great-grandfather, NN son of Johannes Moustakon Arscrun becoming "fictitious" character.

His son ,Manuel Arshakuni, according to Geni is still my 49th great-grandfather.

Before this change I could trace my direct line of parentage, thru Placidia,

(mother of the now fictitious "NN son of Johannes Moustakon Arscruni")

to Phozib whom Geni stated as being my 115th great-grandmother.

Best Regards,
Markku

Private User I believe you are referring to N.N., son of Johannes Moustakon Arscruni

This profile has no descendants, so cannot be your 50th great-grandfather, so whether he is marked as fictitious shouldn't be too much of a concern. When Isolating a profile/tree to stop it being merged with the World Tree curators are only given a very limited choice of tags, Fictitious is the broadest (as so most used) tag.

This part of the tree is in flux at the moment but should settle down shortly, I'm sure you agree that as a guiding principle everyone on Geni should aspire to an accurate tree based on evidence rather than simply trying to link people to each other in an attempt to reach back further and further.

While it is quite acceptable to have NN (ie Nomen nescio which is Latin for "no name") profiles in the tree they are often used to force branches together where there is a lack of supporting evidence.

Private User What Alex Moes says is correct. As you can see from this discussion, this tree is undergoing construction. N.N.'s profile is the result of a confused conglomeration of different hypothetical genealogies, with the end result being that he does not belong in any of them. He is an extra generation that somehow made his way into the tree and Fictitious was the closest label I had to describe him.

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